Heli_Sticktime

Pale Male, get a life, do you actually own a business in SA? I do, and I employ 35 people, BEE is an absolute joke when you go into it! It's more about a case of whisky, REALLY!

Don't come with the ID story, that's the govermnet that was voted in by the "people" ten years ago, not the pales, as you call yourself. All this PC crap really gets on my ti s.

People I know are losing out on contracts because they are not BEE when they are a one person business, what must they do? Any bright suggestions?

Let's get back to aviation and let the politicians fight this out

Afriviation

Well Say What there are avenues that exist in SA today. An ATO can always to TETA for a sponsorship grant to train a previously disadvantaged pilot. I know of one or two chopper schools that have done that succesfully.

The next most important issue is awareness. Have you been to an airshow lately? Very few or zero non pale faces there. What does it cost to invite say 100 kids from a nearby township, transport them to the airshow and pay for their entrance fee. This could spark the interest. Remember these kids do not have uncles, brothers, family friends or neighbours who are aviators to look up to. This could bring about the next generation of self sponsored non pale aviators.

BD your deep hatred for me is noted. I didn't post this thread to make friends or be liked. The issue I'm talking about is a reality, i'm not distorting the truth. In fact none of the posters have disputed the facts or stats I have referred to. If everyone liked me then there wouldn't have been a problem. I am hated because what i am raising is an issue that exists because of attitudes of people like you

If I'm not mistaken you're from Aussie. Perhaps i should credit you because you're shooting from the dark. Well let me invite you to learn a thing or 2 about this country. This country has a 3rd world which is by far bigger than the 1st world. it would be in the interest of the citizens of this country to have all of it 1st world like yours. If you're stiill not convinced, let me tell you mate the non pales in here will not go the same route as the aboriginals. they will rise up have, skills and be counted as amongst the best in the world. No one is asking you to sponsor an aboriginal for pilot training anyway.

It is the duty of the citizens as much as it is for the government to develop this country into the greatest. that will not be achieved if the masses of the population are left in the doldrums everyone must be developed to their fullest potential.

I have said enough this morning to earn another dose of hatred

Solid Rust Twotter

"Afri, to be honest, I don't like you, many here don't either, but I'll tell you to your face.It's not because you're black, it's that you, as some one said before, praat (speak) KAK!"


"BD your deep hatred for me is noted."

Hatred? That's all in your mind, boet, as is the fantasy world you inhabit. People have tried to explain to you what happens but you remain in your ivory tower and make proclamations you expect all and sundry to follow while arrogantly accusing them of deeds which have no basis in fact and for which you have no proof.

As for TETA and SETA, a friend who owns a flying school and an AMO pays into this fund every month but when he asks if he can have his employees trained (black, by the way) he is not even afforded the courtesy of a reply from the fatcats running things. He hasn't taken home a salary in four months but his employees were paid a bonus in December. It's not as rosy as you might think.

I get the idea that you're out of touch with the reality of what goes on in business and that you think all the one man shows and entrepeneurs are raking it in. WRONG!

Afriviation

SRT, as the old saying goes "Where there's a will there's a way". In SA Aviation there's now will to transform. Excuse after the other is the order of the day. Well you can hate me all you like, the fact remains. This is an African country. Sooner or later the cockpits will have to be transformed to reflect the demographics of this country. You can thank me for highlighting that this is an imminent change that you're not in a state of shock when it all unfolds.

This is a truly inspiring story, sad to know that most pale aviators in SA today are still as prejudiced as they were in Mr. Anderson's times.

Timeless Voices of Aviation "Voice of the Week" - Charles Anderson
February 20, 2004 - In celebration of African American History Month, this week's "Voice" was one of the leading factors behind the success of the famed Tuskegee Airmen. Charles Alfred "Chief" Anderson (1907-1996) was the Chief Flight Instructor of the initial Civilian Pilot Training Program at the Tuskegee Institute in Tuskegee, Alabama in the late 1930s, which would later became the "Tuskegee Experiment" to prove whether or not blacks could become military aviators. Under his direction and guidance, the Tuskegee pilots would go on to become the 99th Pursuit Squadron, and later the highly successful 332nd Fighter Group - famous for never losing a bomber to enemy fighters while under their protection. EAA's Vintage Division interviewed Chief during the 1992 EAA Oshkosh Fly-In/Convention.
Charles Alfred Anderson was born February 9, 1907 to Janie and Iverson Anderson of Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. Sent to live with his grandmother in Stanton, Virginia, as a young boy living in the Shenandoah Valley he developed an overwhelming interest in airplanes and flight. "When I was 8 years old my grandmother took care of me and we lived in Stanton, Virginia. It was in the Shenandoah Valley there - famous for when the Confederate Army marched through it on their way to Gettysburg. At that time I had heard rumors about airplanes landing in the valley somewhere. I always wanted to see one and see what it was like, because I was hemmed in in that valley and couldn't see anything with the mountains on my left and mountains on my right. I thought if I could get in an airplane, at least I could see what was on the other side of the mountain."
"So I would run way from home to try and find these airplanes that supposedly landed in the valley. It upset my grandmother so much, and with the criticism of the neighbors saying that she had this crazy grandson, she sent me back to my mother who lived in Pennsylvania. So Grandmother put me on a train and sent me back home to my mother!"
By that point it was all over for Chief - he had caught the aviation bug hard and heavy and could not get the idea of flying out of his head, as he explained. "When my mother took me back to Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, I did the same thing I did in Virginia with my grandmother - I ran away to see airplanes!"
When he was 13, Chief applied to the Drexel Institute Aviation School, but was denied admission because of his race. When he was a bit older he tried to join the Army to become a pilot, but was again rejected because of the color of his skin. He didn't let those setbacks get in his way. "I was so determined to learn to fly that I decided the only way I was actually going to be able to fly was to buy my own airplane. It was unfortunate, but in those days it was taboo for an instructor to teach a colored boy to fly an airplane. So I couldn't even get a ride in an airplane. So I said to myself, 'I am going to fly and airplane, so I'm going to have to buy one!'"
"I bought a Vielie Monocoupe," Chief continued. "I borrowed money - I didn't have any money to buy one with, so I borrowed money from friends and relatives. This thing was going to cost $2500 - I borrowed up to $2000 and got stuck on the last $500. My dad worked for a fine lady there in Bryn Mawr, a Mrs. Wright, who owned a boarding school for wealthy young white ladies. Well I was going around and borrowing money from all the folks that worked there. Well my dad found out and told me it would disturb Mrs. Wright to know that I was running around borrowing money. Well she found out and asked my dad, 'What is he borrowing money for?' He said, 'To buy an airplane.' She said, 'To buy an airplane???' He said, 'That's right - he wants to buy an airplane.' She said, 'Well how much does he want?' He said, '$500.' She said, '$500? I'll just give him $500 then!' Which she did! Then I bought my airplane."
That was fairly extraordinary for the time! For a wealthy white woman during the 1920s to give $500 to a young, poor black man was unheard of, yet alone to buy an airplane of all things, but Chief Anderson's determination won Mrs.Wright over, and he was able to purchase his Monocoupe. Now that he had it he had to learn to fly it. Chief was able to find an aviation school that would give him some basic maintenance and ground schooling, but no flight training. He spent his time hanging around at airports and was able to pick up some tips on taking off and landing by listening to the pilots hangar talk and watching the airplanes coming and going from the field. The rest he figured out on his own. "After I got the airplane I had to learn how to fly it, but nobody would teach me. So I just fooled around with it enough that I got accustomed to it and eventually got to the point where I soloed myself."
Teaching one's self to fly is not a recommended venture today, and it wasn't then either. Chief nearly scalped himself on one of his first solo hops when he crashed into a tree when he tried to land. His dogged persistence paid off however, as by 1929 Chief was competent enough in the air to earn his pilot's certificate. Having learned to fly, Chief decided his next priority would be to earn an Air Transport License, so that he could make a legal living at being a pilot. This would be a difficult task, for along the way he had replaced the Monocoupe with an Alexander Eaglerock, but had crashed it too. In order to continue his training, he needed access to an airplane, and he knew from experience that it was going to be a difficult task to get one.
"I was determined to earn an Air Transport License so I could fly for an airline or give instruction, but I needed an airplane. I began looking for someone from whom I could borrow or rent an airplane. Of all things I met a man by the name of Ernest Buehl. He was a pilot in the First World War in the German Air Force - he was known as the 'Flying Dutchman.' Someone told me that if I went to see that man he would probably help me qualify to get this license. Sure enough, when I went to him to talk about it he said, 'Sure, I'll give you instruction.' He gave me instruction in spins, steep turns, and perfected me so I could go take a flight check for the Transport license."
"Well when we went to take this flight check the inspector didn't want to give it to me. He said, 'Well, I've never given a flight check to a colored boy, and I'm not going to do it now!' I remember Mr. Buehl became very hostile with the man, and threatened him, 'You're going to give him the flight check - he deserves it - he's qualified and I demand that you give him the flight check or else you're going to have to deal with me!' The inspector decided to give me the flight check…"
"After it was over Mr. Buehl asked him how I did. He said, 'Well he did okay with his flying, and he got a 100% on his written test - I'll give him an 80% and that will pass him.' So that's how I happened to get the first Air Transport License ever issued to a black in the United States."
As Chief soon found out, earning the coveted Air Transport License did not ensure employment. No one was keen on hiring a black pilot, so Chief took the first job available to him. "My father," he explained, "who was the caretaker for that woman who ran the boarding school, well he died and I took over his job. Well this Mrs. Wright - she died. This lady who took over the school, when she found out I had this Air Transport License she was very much upset about it, and she fired me. She said, 'Now, you just let your license take care of you!' And that was the end of that."
"After I lost my job - this was back in the Depression days now - I had to find some type of work to support my family - I was married by now and had children - so I got a job with what was known as the WPA, the Works Progress Administration. When they accepted me and found out I was a pilot, they gave me a job digging ditches! They put me in with a crew of other black men digging ditches, and in those days you dug ditches with a shovel - you didn't use the machines they have now. Well they put me on the lowest level. I would dig out a shovel full of dirt and throw it up to the next man on the next level, and he would throw it on out into the street."
"Well one day this fella Dr. Albert Forsythe heard about me having this Air Transport License. Well he came up to where we were working one day and he called down to me, 'Come on up out of there - I want to talk to you.' He said, 'You have a Transport License and you can't do any better than this? You come on with me - we're going to turn this whole thing around! I'm going to buy an airplane and you and I are going to fly and show people and prove to people that we can do anything that anyone else can do!'"
Dr. Albert Forsythe was a successful young black physician from Atlantic City, New Jersey, who had also been a student of Ernest Buehl's. When he could not get accepted into a medical school in the United States, he went north to Montreal, Canada and earned a medical degree. Disgusted with the rampant racism in the U.S., he took it upon himself to prove that blacks were just as capable as whites. At that time, aviation was in vogue - coast to coast records were being set, Lindbergh had just flown across the Atlantic a few years earlier, and there wasn't a day gone by where something related to aviation wasn't in the papers or on the radio. Dr. Forsythe decided to use aviation as his tool to fight racism and discrimination, and he needed Chief's help.
"Well Bert - I call him Bert - he bought an airplane from Mr. Buehl, who had helped me get my Air Transport License. After he bought it I gave him some extra flight lessons until he could handle it properly. One day he said to me, 'Now I didn't get this airplane just to fly around Bryn Mawr - we're going to take this airplane and show people that we can fly just like anyone else!' So he decided we would go to California. So we flew from Atlantic City to Los Angeles, California, which was the first time blacks had ever spanned the continent from east to west. Then we turned around and flew back to Atlantic City. We were the first blacks to make a round trip flight in the U.S. coast to coast. A young black man had flown from California to the East Coast, but unfortunately he had an accident and never made the flight back to California. So we were the first blacks to make a round trip flight."
This first trip was one of three "good will" flights that Dr. Forsythe and Chief planned together, and it received a good deal of attention, as did the other two. "After he bought another airplane, which we named the Spirit of Booker T. Washington in a ceremony at the Tuskegee Institute in Alabama, we decided we were going to fly out of the country. We made the first flight from Atlantic City up to Montreal, where Bert had gone to school. After that he decided we would fly to the West Indies and South America, and he bought another airplane for that. The thing of it is, in the West Indies and most places down there at that time they didn't have airports - very few of them even had airfields where you could land. We had to pick places were we could land - cricket fields, racetracks, wherever we could find a place to land. Well we had a very difficult problem with landing fields and with the trade winds blowing and what not, and to make a long story short we lost the airplane down in Trinidad."
Despite this unfortunate end to their South American good will tour, Chief and Dr. Forsythe were honored on their return to New Jersey with a parade in Newark in September 1935. During the later half of the 1930s, Chief would become involved with a number of programs introducing black high school kids to aviation and giving flight instruction to black pilots who couldn't get instruction elsewhere. During this same time period, the Civilian Pilot Training Program (CPTP) was established to train white men to fly in the event that war should reach the U.S. After an immense lobbying effort, President Roosevelt's administration eventually agreed to allow black men to participate in the program. A segregated all black training site was established at Moton Field, Alabama under the direction of the Tuskegee Institute, and soon after Chief was invited to join the program.
During his interview he explained how he became involved in one of the most famed aviation groups in history. "Consequently as a result of having our airplane named back at Tuskegee back in 1934, I became acquainted with people there like Dr. Frederick Patterson, the famous animal vet who became the president of Tuskegee. Well when they wanted to start an aviation program at Tuskegee they thought about me and asked me to come to Tuskegee to be the Chief Flight Instructor for this program. They bought a WACO airplane which I flew down from Ohio and that was the beginning of Tuskegee being involved with the training of blacks in aviation in 1940."
Because he flew as the Chief Flight Instructor, Charles Alfred Anderson became known simply as "Chief" for the rest of his life. Chief flew as the chief instructor of the CPT program at Tuskegee for about a year, and then a chance meeting with the First Lady Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt in March 1941 changed his life forever. "We were conducting the civilian CPT program there, and Mrs. Roosevelt came to visit Tuskegee. You know her husband had infantile paralysis, and the Tuskegee Institute had a hospital there that had an infantile paralysis unit. While she was there, the doctor at the hospital there told her about our flying. She asked him to take her out to where we were flying at the airfield. When he brought her out to the field I was introduced to her as the chief instructor. The first thing she said was, 'I always heard colored people couldn't fly airplanes, but I see you're flying all around here.' And then she said, 'I'm just going to have to take a flight with you.' Of course all her escorts ran out there and they were all very much opposed to it - 'No Mrs. Roosevelt! You can't do that!' Well she just made up her mind she was going to do it and got in the airplane. You don't argue with the First Lady, so we took off and made the flight, and then when we got back down she said, 'Well, I see you can fly all right!' It wasn't long after that that President Roosevelt's administration decided to have this program called the 'Tuskegee Experiment.'"
"The 'Tuskegee Experiment,'" Chief continued, "was to prove if it was feasible for blacks to fly airplanes, particularly in the military. So that was something we had to overcome. We were determined to prove we could do anything anybody else could do. We were very loyal to our country - we wanted to be fighter pilots just like anybody else. So consequently, although it was only intended to prove that it could work - it did work! As a result the Tuskegee Airmen did a wonderful job in the war to help win the war against the German Air Force."
"The Tuskegee Airmen were instrumental in integrating the military, both in the Air Force, the Army, the Navy, and the Marines. Prior to that all a black could do was be a cook, or a steward, or some other menial job. Now we have a Chief of Staff who is black - Colin Powell (remember, this interview was in 1992). The Tuskegee Airmen broke down barriers - it gave a chance for our people to contribute something to the country, which we always wanted to do, and we will continue to do!"
Chief personally trained over 1000 pilots at Moton Field in Tuskegee, including two of his better-known students General Benjamin O. Davis, Jr. and General Daniel "Chappie" James, Jr. The 332nd Fighter Group, formed entirely of Tuskegee pilots, was one of the most successful fighter groups during WWII, and they have the lone distinguish of being the only fighter group to never lose a bomber to enemy fighters while they were flying as escort. That kind of feat required strict discipline and superb flying, both of which Chief instilled in his students.
Chief's accomplishments did not stop when the war ended. He kept flying as an instructor, giving flight instruction to students of all races well into his eighties - in 1992 at the time of this interview Chief still had a valid air medical and was still giving flight instruction! He was a founding member of the Tuskegee Airmen, Inc. (TAI) and of the Negro Airmen International (NAI). Chief was instrumental in the organization of the NAI Summer Flight Academy, which provides aviation opportunities to young blacks.
Charles Alfred "Chief" Anderson is and was not only an inspiration to black Americans, but also to anyone involved with aviation or who sets a goal to accomplish something in their lives. Sadly, Chief passed away on April 13, 1996 after a long fight with cancer, but his spirit continues on in every person - no matter what his or her race - who desires to fly.
Chief's story is one of many interesting interviews in the Timeless Voices archive. Check back next week for another Timeless Voices "Voice of the Week."

Solid Rust Twotter

What hatred, boet?? I'm genuinely interested in where you come up with this utter drivel you spout about everyone hating you? Don't you think your racial paranoia and dislike of white people is getting the better of you and it's now time to lose the attitude and see what is really going on around you? You're in the pound seats and any initiatives to advance a population group is aimed directly at you and others like you. It may wrongfully have been exclusively for whites in the old days but any job or qualification gained was done so on ability and the hard yards had to be done to get that lekker job in airlines you now occupy. It'll take a few years but black pilots will get there in the end without threats from people like you to push them into jobs they may not be ready for. Having a licence to fly commercially doesn't necessarily guarantee you a job. Hundreds of white pilots can confirm this. How many jobless black pilots do you know?

beechbum

With all this so called hatred you have around you Afri, just a query, but how do you get along with your fellow co-workers? I must admit I just wonder what so called CRM skills you possess? And when you finally become the "supreme commander" how will you interact with your whitey first officer? All this hatred bantered around makes me wonder if this in fact clouds your so called proffessional mind/demeanour!!
Like it don't like it!!!!!

Fat A1bert

This is laughable. Afri I think you have spoken volumes. You seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that aviation is not something that any little black boy (or more preferably, girl) can be thrown into and expected to succeed. Besides anything else, and arguably more importantly than anything else, there HAS to be a PASSION for aviation, aeroplanes, flying!!! A passion that builds up in someone so that he/she works his/her arse off to spend time around planes, and eventually in one! I appreciate that the due to our country’s unfair past flying has been more accessible to whites, but for heaven’s sake, get over that. We are here and we are now, and if there is a black guy/girl out there now with a passion, they’re laughing. You spoke of visiting airshows and igniting interest. Strange how you blatantly had no interest before being sucked up by your sponsor –

“The first time I ever saw an aeroplane is when I was boarding one to the flying school my sponsor was sending me to. I never aspired to be a pilot from kindergarden. Flying for me at the time off course was a meal ticket.”

This quote makes me sick. There was nothing stopping you, or your peers, walking to an airfield when you were growing up (wherever that was) to watch the planes (even from the perimeter fence). There was nothing stopping you or your peers getting books about planes out of the library, to learn. That’s what I did, and guess what – it cost nothing and was rewarding and fun! You’ve had 12 years to feed a passion – but you obviously don’t have one. Pity you’re doing it only to secure your ‘meal ticket’. Without passion (and ability), you won’t work. If you don’t work, you won’t succeed. If you are an unsuccessful pilot, yet are forced into the cockpit of an airliner, you will kill people. That is why this takes time.

Afri, has it crossed your mind that perhaps fewer black people are excited by the prospect of a career in aviation in the first place? Not everyone wants to be a pilot – whites included! I remember reading similar winges from the relatively few black pilots in the American industry… (before you start Afri, I know they’re the minority there).

You are extremely fortunate to have got where you have, and have without doubt got an awful lot from the current state of the industry. Now concentrate on what you are doing, and forget about how many faces of whatever bloody colour are around you. You really should be quite content.

Cheers all
FA

Afriviation

Amazes me how many of you prefer to attack me as If I'm the architect of slow transformation in SA. Perhaps I desreve it for bringing a topic everyone chooses to ignore 'cos the status quo suits them. No fat albert, I never knew of Aeroplanes, i just responded to an advert and I was lucky to be accepted that's a fact. In my entire neighborhood I had no role model I could look up to and perhaps spark the interest in aviation. Who was I to ever think I could ever become a pilot? I walked 30 kilometres each day to school. There was no motor vehicle at home to take me to the airport, not that I would have ever wanted to go there in the first place 'cos as I have admitted I knew nothing about aviation.
Despite my circumstances I was able to obtain good grades at school and by sheer luck I was off to pilot school.

Agreed there are few indeed, and perhaps around 3500 of around 4000 total pilots in SA out of an active economic non pale population of around 16 million that's a few indeed.

And now I look and i think how many more untapped potential pilots are out there in the bundus who could be developed and occupy their rightful seats in South African Aeroplanes?

Beechbum if bad CRM is about challenging the status quo, then you're right I need an earlier refresher. I just like the idea of a representative Aviation sector more than being liked because I'm passive about it. I doubt though If any non pale is ever liked or it's just professional pretence. For the record I'm an emotionally balanced individual, I never hate people just their deeds. Nor do I hate people for their opinions that's just too immature. There's always an issue to be resolved, i'd rather focus my energy and time resolving the issues and not the individuals.

All of you keep on referring to me hanging on to the past, I have yet to hear anyone of you referring to what SA Aviation has done in the present except lambasting the Goverment for their efforts at SAA, CAA and the airfroce. Well I'm listening.

SRT I'm not sure where you're going about the black jobless pilots, Unless SAA or the CAA looks after them, no one is going to anyway.

PPRUNE Thanks for a wonderful site, it certainly gets SA talking.

Brian_Dunnigan

You don't know much, do you, Afri?

1. I'm not Australian.

2. I'm not South African.

3. I don't hate you, I just don't like you.

4. You assume people hate you, therein lies a problem.

5. Aviation is not a soccer team...one can't just take people out of the bush and make them pilots...there are intermediate steps to be followed as I have already mentioned.

6. The SA government is failing, you but you seem to think the industry is at fault although some here have already told you that people have not applied

7. You feel that you're owed something...I can't see why as you have got in to a spot many would sell their left bollock for.

8. Noone has a rightful place in any cockpit...it is earned, as you earned it.

9. I had a look at how you got there...why can't others do so?

10. The US story you pasted has no application today in SA, as there is majority rule now.In addition, aviation conditions have differed in the US as compared to other nations for a long time as their aviation industry has different economies of scale. Just look at the costs (at PPP) of flying in the US, hence why many go there to train, including the 9/11 fools.

11. Any attempt to compare the US affirmative action policies to those of SA will also be incorrect, as they have a bigger industry capable of absorbing the costs due to their tax system. Something you could suggest to the comrades about changing, Afri?

12. Perhaps you, and other SA pilots could found an Early Eagle scheme to assist those who fancy an aviation career that could identify talent?

13. The reason people here get angry with you, Afri, is that assume we're racist. Some may well be, but even in Black nations, you'll find bigots.
You need to face this fact, knowing that ar@#holes exist everywhere.

14. Your comment on Aborigines is irrelevant to me, Afri. I am not one, so why would this offend me?

Some here on the thread mentioned guilt...well, some may be, but as I voted only once in SA in the 1992 referendum (Ja), I don't believe I've anything to be guilty about. But I guess some think they know me better than I do!

Look, Afri, the way you go about this offends some...I just feel you're energies would be better focused on opportunity creation than labelling an entire industry...you'll at least get a smile from someone grateful for the chance...just my 2 cents (+ 0.2c GST)!

Shrike200

Oh please, here we go, hate, hate, hate. What on earth did you have to say that for Afriviation? - we just think you're not answering the questions and problems we put to you. I'd love to know what the atmosphere is like on your planet, but that sure ain't oxygen you're breathing. All the good will in the world doesn't generate cash. 'Will to transform' doesn't equate to money. Why don't you try and understand things from another point of view for a change - from where we're sitting, it looks like you hold all the cards, not us.

"I have said enough this morning to earn another dose of hatred" - no mate, you've just said enough this morning to earn less respect for your intelligence, thats all. Don't mistake anyone thinking you're dumb for hatred, thats a very strong word, there's a big difference.

Solid Rust Twotter

Don't be so paranoid. No one is attacking you because they assume you're the architect of slow transformation. What's being pointed out to you is your attitude of expecting things will just happen if you whine about it and your targeting folks with white skins for percieved injustice on the flight deck. Things take time to happen if they're to be done correctly. Short cuts lead to problems in the long run.

As for the numbers of black opposed to white jobless pilots, the fact is that black pilots are, on the whole, not jobless, whereas the whites constitute many hundreds in an industry numbering less than 5000 qualified members. Once again, how many black commercial/ATP pilots do you know of without a job in South Africa?

"Rightful place in the cockpit?" Do you think it's a right to have a job in aviation? It's a privilege, and unlike you, one most of us have worked and are working very hard for.

Brian_Dunnigan

Here's a poser: Who's responsible for the unemployment across the board in SA?

Is it industry, the government prior to 1994, or the current government?

Given certain people's leanings, the answers could be interesting...

Pale_ZA_Male

BEE is a mechanism to provide the millions an opportunity and the skills to make most of it. I agree that the small enterprises i.e. one man bands are falling foul of this, but I understand that such operators may be exempt from this in the future.

I did not vote for this government, but I am a South African and while this government is in power they are my government. I may not agree with everything they do but they have been a lot better than any white government. Equally, neither did I vote for our current rugby administrators. I think Van Rooyen and his crony's should drown in the sea. However the team that they have put together is the team I support. They are my rugby team.

And for your info, I do live here. I also run a business and I face the same problems that you do. However I believe that there are issues that this country needs to address that are bigger and more important than me, me, me and me. And one of those things is transformation. And it does effect my opportunities and what I can do. And it's not just in aviation. I know that this country's future depends on successful transformation. And if I was a black, I would consider Bob Mugabe to be a moderate and you would be swimming.

Nevertheless, we can all of course move to Germany, the engine of Europe, where unemployment is still greater than it is here amongst the white males.

Brian_Dunnigan

Pale ZA Male...Germany's unemployment is lower than yours...the fact that you do not count the rest of your population (Germany, the engine of Europe, where unemployment is still greater than it is here amongst the white males.) is strange.
Isn't that the type of statistics the Nats used to peddle?

Pale_ZA_Male

You are right. However I am referring to the unemployment rate amongst white males. It is intended to illustrate that white males in South Africa, although prejudiced by the current BEE policies, still have a fairly good chance of employment relative to other countries and certainly a far greater chance than blacks.

As an aside I feel BEE as a policy should apply to anyone in poverty or without hope of employment, including whites. It should be an economic policy, not a racial one.

Shrike200

Now there's a thought, maybe one day thats what it could become.....one day. Anyone got any ideas about when discrimination against whites is going to be written out of the law? Or does somebody have to get locked up for lots of years on Robben Island first?

mattman

This Is crazy.
Afriviation everytime someone asks you a direct question you sideslip it and dump a whole load of intresting but irrevelent drivel for us to read.
Had a look at your profile dude and not yet much intresting there either. Sure you could inflate the truth about hours and experiance but thats the same as pencil whipping your log book bro!!

Why dont you put your money where your mouth is. I regulary send C.V's to S.A companies and get no response but the funny thing is I send a CV to a overseas company I at least get a letter from them saying thanks and they are at least intrested.
I really want YOU to maybe experiance a bit of Africa (does not mean flying over it dude). Why dont you get yourself a job that lets you see how foutunate you are to be a South African. Most of these guys that are posting replies to your BullS@$t that your spouting, not only work there but live for extended times in these absoulute despots in Africa.
Come see how the rest of Africa live, how they were raped of all minerals and any economic stability they had. I visited these places dude, I lived in them and everytime I come home I am proud that at least our country has the sensibility not to succumb to the African way of live I have to endure for 10 months of a year.
Where were you when we were still spiralling into Angola because a UN sign means shoot here? where were you when we landed in almost the worst conditions just to medivac a UN soldier with wounds?
Where were you when other guys were standing a airfields just to get a glimps of a aircraft?
I really am starting to dislike you attitude, you must a absoulute pain to fly with I just hope that I never get the oppertunity.
I have flown with guys that are non-pale, as it is put, and deserve more than you ever should, funny thing is these guy's did there training with out goverment or company assitance and actually love what they doing and have a greater respect for the love of flying.
My friend your attitude is the reason our country just does not go foward fast enough.
Thats my 2 cents worth and I know you will probably attack me for it but I will be the bigger aviator and back away.

Gooday to you Sir

Luxury

Near to 10 pages of bull$hit
Reading all the posts, looks to me Afri is pale .... stiring the pot
Put this thread to

Afriviation

mattman you've said a mouthful but I fail to see how it relates to his topic. As I'm getting wiser posting replies to this thread, I'm staying away from answering personal attacks because this is in no way about me it's about the millions of previously disadvantaged people out there and you will not agree on this one, pales will also benefit from having more representation across all job levels in the economy. That will mean less crime, less impoverished economy, boming tourism and yes an even greater country.

I don't think there's discrimination against anyone in this country. It's a democratic country and everyone has a place in it. Employment equity is a vehicle to bring the impoverished communities who happen to be non pale into the mainstream economy. Were it not for this act, non pales would never be able to advance as they lag far behind the pales in education, skills, capital and so forth. One can hope that our economy continues to grow, in which case there will be endless opportunities for everyone. Every Company is allowed to set their employment equity targets which can be representiative according to the demographics of the country. Theoretically then after these targets have been reached a Company would be at liberty to hire on merit. I say theoretically because I don't know if there's any sector in business or Company that has gotten there yet.

My answer to that will be employment rates and certainly the economy in SA are far greater than they were prior to 1994. Hence you've seen the comments by say what about this government doing better than the Nats.

I think the guys in Zim ran out of time, and the Bomb exploded. You can't keep on making people wait and wait, they become impatient. If we can just talk about this time issue. Let me see. It takes on average around 2 years for a pilot to qualify as a Commercial Pilot. Assuming full time employment another conservative two to reach 1000 hours. The issue here is not time, but money. I am no authority here people, I can't be dictating what must happen to transform SA Aviation. My point has been made, it's a problem that exist and if it's not sorted out there's bound to be consequences.

I know of at least 20 but I'm no authority in this and my figure could be well below the correct one. The point is not about jobless black pilots, the issue is about the identification and development of black candidates into professional pilots. I undertsand this is a requirement of the employment equity act that everyone so much ignores. And yes the SA Aviation Sector is in breach of the law, not my law, the law of South Africa.

You make it sound that non pales are not capable of hard work. i just have to laugh at that. You make aviation sound like some rocket science, it's not. For people without inherent ability yes it can be, but for people who have it it's a walk in the park. I don't know about you but for me flying is fun. I never see it as hard work. i'm getting paid for having fun. You can take me anywhere in the world and give me any aeroplane whether it's in Africa or wherever I'll still have fun. The flying will make up for any misery I may come across on the ground. But you see I'm not selfish, I would like some non pales also to experience the joys of flight.

Where are the non pales in those steps? Step Zero.

Solid Rust Twotter

All I can say is that black pilots without a job are not looking for one. The aviation sector in SA is screaming for black pilots to the extent that they're being actively recruited from flying schools if they are South African and even in some cases if they're not. Right to live and work here is being "fixed" by the companies. So much for jobs for South Africans.

Please explain to me how a company that is barely getting by and paying a below average wage to their regular pilots is going to be able to fund a black pilot that has as yet to prove himself? It's possible he's the wrong candidate and would be better suited to a career in business and would only waste their time and money. Why not take someone who's worked for it and is already there? Oh, silly me. Already been snapped up by airlines.

I know of captains working on contract in the bush in appalling conditions getting paid less than the boss' secretary. That is not going to motivate many people to become pilots but those are the facts.

[QUOTE/]I think the guys in Zim ran out of time, and the Bomb exploded. You can't keep on making people wait and wait, they become impatient. If we can just talk about this time issue. Let me see. It takes on average around 2 years for a pilot to qualify as a Commercial Pilot. Assuming full time employment another conservative two to reach 1000 hours. The issue here is not time, but money. I am no authority here people, I can't be dictating what must happen to transform SA Aviation. My point has been made, it's a problem that exist and if it's not sorted out there's bound to be consequences.[/QUOTE]

Pray tell, what is the person expected to do with 1000 hours? Command on a jet? Command on a medium turboprop? A white pilot may just be reaching a stage where the insurance companies consider him employable. Cadets and fast trackers are usually already in a regional airline by this point. I'm getting the idea you've never had to hand out countless CVs, attend the few interviews that get scheduled and spend months getting turned down. Command at SAA used to take 15-20 years in the right seat so your timetable is merely in it's infancy.

Zimbabwe is an example of an autocracy gone mad. It was all about pandering to the crowd to win votes in the end. Mugabe will do anything to hold onto power, including killing his own people (the sector who historically don't vote for him) and destroying his country.


Your logic is so flawed it's a joke. I asked where people had the right to an aviation job and you made it into a racist thing. Entering into any kind of debate with you is a waste of time and energy as you fail to present anything near a rational argument to back up your point, instead replying with thinly veiled threats about what will happen if things don't get fast tracked (Zim scenario), slanderous and untrue statements about people who oppose you, manipulation of their intentions and and downright untruths.

I say again, any discrimination based on race is inherently racist, yet it seems this is acceptable to you. It appears the **** remains the same, only the flies have changed. Your whole struggle will have been in vain if the only thing that happens is that the liberators become the oppressors, as has happened so many times before. What will happen when equity has been reached? Will those discriminatory rules fall away? Somehow, I don't think so...

These things take time. Any attempt to fast track what can't be hurried will lead to failure.