Afriviation

Now JG1 from your last response, this is the problem that makes this unfair system work. Most non pales when they get to positions make good money and think the world is their oyster they shut up and relax, whereas they can see that things are not the way they're supposed to be. The goverement is also probably fooled by the token appointments that have been made and hence their lax approach in insisting to enforce transformation laws. Well the picture is far from looking right.

I am not one of them and will not shut my mouth when something is going horribly wrong.

The notion of non pale pilots getting things the easy way is totally skewed. If it were not for these schemes there wouldn't be as much lack pilots as there are today, not because they are lazy but because Aviation is expensive more so for someone living in poverty.

Not everyone who has money wants to be a pilot and not everyone who wants to be a pilot has money in response to the writer who referred to rich black people. By the way the majority of wealth in this country is still in pale hands jduging by the number of pale owned businesses, land, aircraft, Mines, property etc. Some of thee non pales may be driving these cars but it does not mean that they are wealthyor the cars belong to them, The writer who referred to most non pales driving luxurious cars forgets that some if not most of them are probably driving for the baas or are fronting in some doctored BEE scheme.

SA the time has come to relax on the grip in Aviation, let some of the Sons and Daughters of your Gardners, House Maids and Nannies take part in this fun filled and lucrative careers, They were good to you after all some of them raised you and even taught you a word of Isizulu and Sesotho.

saywhat

Sad part is that I agree with both sides. Afriaviation has a point, there has to be some form of transformation in the industry if we as a nation are going to succeed. The main problem that I see is that there are too few black pilots coming through the system. Almost all the black pilots that I see have come through a sponsored scheme, which causes animosity amongst those who who could not get the free training. (read whites) These same pilots who could not be sponsored have spent many piggy banks of money learning to fly, yet, now find themselves in a position where they battle to find jobs.
The fact that there are stories out there about how badly black pilots fly is unfortunate. Most of these stories are without doubt untrue.
The saddest part is that if I am right, and both sides do have a valid gripe, how does one correct the situation? I unfortunately do not have the answer.
In closing,to answer Afriaviations previous post, Tony Factor I believe came from a very poor backround, and only had a basic education. He became VERY rich and successfull. If I am wrong, I apologise, as this fact, like the stories of the black pilots inability to fly is based purely on hearsay, and may in fact be a myth. I hope not, as it was a good story that gave a lot of people hope.

Felix04

You must be a family member of one of our neighbouring countries presidents. Both of you share the same vision.
Reality check, look at the current predicament he finds himself at the moment.

It's not understandable to me as how one person can have such a skewed vision of reality.

JG1

Oh, dear. If this one had another brain cell it would be lonely.

One wonders how he got through the personality tests.

Afri, you will certainly go far in life with an attitude like that....the further the better.

And somewhere there's a small rural village in zululand thats missing an idiot.

Afri, like I said right in the beginning, then......

Phenomenon

Do us all a favour Afri and grow up.

If you indeed feel so passionate about it stop bitching and moaning on a website, get of your arse and do something about it.

That's the problem with people like yourself... the words are there but your actions are lacking.

boomslang

Afriviation and all of the rest.

What you all have managed to do is just highlight the fact that we are all the same no matter what colour, creed or religion. Affirm we all kaked to get somewhere. Like Afri said he knows of pilots from his part of wherever that waitered to pay for a lesson. I know of pilots that slept in their cars or under aerie wings to get somewhere. Who cares what colour they were?

By the way Afri, my dad used to tell me to wash the car. Does this make me less priviledged than the other pales? No it makes what I did exactly the same as the other person, because that's how I earned my pocket money just as he did.

The bigger issue to address is the grass roots education and culture of aviation. Why do most people (note the lack of colour reference) fail in aviation? Because they see it as just another job, that's why. I can go to work at 8 and leave at 4 and earn thousands. Not so in real life. You cannot be involved in any form of aviation if you do not eet, sleep and drink aviation. That's how you get a mental understanding for aviation. And yes kids don't get a chance to be involved in aviation in Alex, Soweto and Mamelodi. But you might be surprised that this is also true for any suburb in the previously know as pale districts. What can be done I hear you say? This has already been started and is currently in motion, but need everyones involvment. What? Yes! Take the Young Eagles, Syandiza and Bring a girl child to work programs. The aviation seed has been planted in thousands of young people from all sectors of the community. And yes each and everyone of us that got a break in aviation should plough back into aviation as much as we can, to that I agree.

mattman

Well all hell has broken loose. I love this, why dont we ask this guy to quit his SAA thingy and come fly with us contract boys in the deep and darkest parts of the world.
Oh but wait have you got the time and rating for that hmmm, maybe you want to be captain ok , have you got 3000 total and a thousand on type and I mean on 200 and 1900 boetie.
Oh and almost forgot, no BMW and Mercs here boet just some bashed UN vans some lekker mozzies that love to make you feel you want to die and the food that never stays where it should, maybe the locals that constently point guns at you and make you feel so welcome.
You high in the clouds dude time to come back to ground level and the next time they reset the sim because you cant fly the old needles on your super advanced tv screen infront of you ,just remember there are guys way more experianced than you will ever be and I mean balck white pink and blue running aid and refugees around this Shiete continent we call Africa that you guys casually fly over.

I have good friends of all colour and nationalties that fly and I can promise you ,they all fly better than you.

Afriviation

Say What, you have the most objective and balanced response yet and I agree with you wholeheartedly there are problems both sides, However what disturbs the most is that the pales are always sounding to be the victims of an arrogant non pale government which is trying it's best to sort out the mess everyone has to agree is a challenging one particularly in our small Aviation Community.

There are people out there who are looking to secure Aviation Jobs for their sons and daughters and in the process use manipulative means to rid potential non pale pilots either through training or inflated training costs. for example why does SAA insist on using a particular school which is known to be expensive and is residential to train cadets where the same amount of money could be used to train double the cadets. Not every professional pilot in an airline today was trained from one particular school.

I also don't have an answer to solve this dilemma, all i know is that as long as there are sinister motives from some in the industry, there will never be progressive effort to a solution. We will always be in this tug of war wasting lots of energy and time creating a lot of frustration, heartache and disillusionment in the industry.

I don't want to speculate on the outcome if this thing ever reaches boiling point, could we ever find ourselves in the same boat as some disgruntled people like we had over the land issue in ZImbabwe?

Non pales are known to be very patient people but can be known to explode after a long spell of injustice.

The good thing about SA is that we have a sane Government, who have shown good cause to forgive and move on. But unfortunately the same cannot be said about some of it's citizens who find every possible avenue to criticise and go about their old ways which almost sent this country begging.

To some of the statements criticising some Governments in Africa, All I can say is that the greed of the west had everything to do with their demise and continues this very day.

AGAIN i'm no politician, lets work together to balance our Aviation industry. I'm sure we're the only African country that looks like it has their entire fleet of aircraft wet leased from Europe.

Most Pale resorts want to create an African experience and ambience, why cant the same be done for the cockpits. I'm sure there's a countless number of tourists to SA asking themselves the very same question? Why only pale pilots?

beechbum

"Because dear aviation colleague, if you took the time to realise, it's the best!!!
And by no means a waste of money!!!!Your esteemed government is paying for it anyway so why are you so worried as to the expense of their (the cadets' training).
I think we should call you "agrivation" as man that is surely what you are causing with your dim view of most things aviation.
And as for the government being sane......huh pull the other one!!!Why do you think I call my location Gangsters Paradise....what does YOUR government do about that?
Man as one poster put it.......you speak a load of KAK

But one thing's for sure I gotta thank you for starting the thread, as you've kept me busy this afternoon....since the weather's been lousy at least I had something humorous and entertaining to read.
p.s. You don't drive or used to drive a white Volvo by any chance?.........Ummmmmmmm

Speed Managed

Afri
I find most of your comments very ignorant, arrogant and ultimately immature. I could go into a deep debate with you on the various issues you have raised however it would be a pointless waste of time!
Unfortunately, you are obviously one of my colleagues in SAA which is quite disconcerting. And judging by your level of understanding the value of experience you probably also a cadet P3 who never makes it 'downstairs at 6' to have a beer with us at overseas destinations. But if for some reason or another, YOU do decide, you are able to join your 'pale' colleagues I would love to discuss this with you further. Until then fly safe!

Afriviation

Yes my government is paying, at who's insistence? None of those guys at Flight Ops have an inclination to train more non pale Cadets, If they had they would have weighed their options and try and utilise the state's money more efficiently.
And can someone tell me something, Why is SAA still training pale females in the Cadet Scheme, When were they disadvantaged?

Beach bum i hope you don't suggest the Government is behind the Gangsters paradise phenomenon. My take on that, it's the very skewed socio-economic situation we find ourselves in this country and yes this thread is one of the many contributors to it.

The non pales are lagging behind the pales in material possessions and wealth, The situation is getting worse, the government has the mammoth task of treating the symptoms as well as the cause e.g affirmative action. The pales are protesting saying the non-pales are given things on a silver platter. Don't get me wrong I'm not condoning the acts of crime, I'm simply sayng open your eyes, see the bigger picture and perhaps you'll live a better life with a full understanding of what's happening around you.

As they say charity begins at home, maybe you'll see the need to support as you would that cute blonde student, a non pale student at your school and not fail them before they've even proven their worth. Who knows they might be your good Captain one day.

Afriviation

Well Speed managed it's probably easier to attack the individual rather than the issues, especially when they have a vaild point. You're probaly right we wouldn't get anywhere with any sort of discussion as you would probaby defend the status quo and attack me personaly like some of the writers in this forum.

I agree I am a bit immature in the issues of manipulating the system, blocking Government policy and excluding other groups, hence our disagreement on this subject. I also fail to see how non pales are categorised as substandard pilots, where has this been scientifically proven? Everyone knows Aviation training is a subjective game. If I want to fail you because You stink or I don't like you, I will find reason to.

The industry and certainly SAA is hiding behind experience to delay thr acceptance of non pales into the airline after graduation whereupon this is happening everywhere else in the world where trasnformation is an imperative. Why? This is against the provisions of the Employment Equity Act, go read it.

beechbum

Afriman.....it's beech as in aircraft and not as in sand if you could take five seconds to take your head out your arse!!!But then you probably wouldn't know what one of those was anyway!
When I condone the government and my location it is referring to the fact that nothing is done to combat such crime in our province or in fact the land we live in.
Anyway with reference to utilising the states money more efficiently.....,why use it at all? There are hundreds if not thousands of pilots with qualifications in the market place.......slightly pale....mind you... but ready and eager and willing to have as many beers as they can at "6".........AND you talk about wasting money!!!!!Try R50 million a year on training cadet pilots'.!!!!!!
And now you wonder why flight ops has no great inclination to train more........

boyracer

Just a question afri why has SAA not have one black instructor, why cant these fellas looking for a quickie do the instructor thing, Its because its to difficult, ie too much hard work...most of the black pilots were not appointed on merit so now the easy life and no doubt command will come soon so why work for it, ps SAA has women instructors and women are the minority in airways.

please not so much TAKE TAKE GIVE ME , but a little give would be nice

Afriviation

beechbum, you don't get it do you? let me put it in layman's terms for you: In South Africa there are 45 million people. Pales make up around 5 million of that. In this industry I'm in over 95% of professionals (Pilots and Engineers) are pale. The majority of the population is groslly under represented because they were denied opportunities in the past.

Now the Government has opened doors to redress the situation, but those pale people in control are still blocking other groups to enter.
When they talk Rainbow Nation you're probably one of those people who said fine, All the Pales in the professional occupations and the non pales in the gardens and Cleaning the houses and living together in harmony. No mate that was not the intent. If the Government does not spend this kind of money in developing non pale people then yes we'll have your ideal because it is going to take years before non pale people can accumulate wealth so as to be able to train their kids into becoming pilots.
The reason apartheid was fought was not only that people can vote but people can be liberated economically and restore their dignity.
In the bigger scheme of things, transforming Aviation would be a contributor to that economic liberation. This now applies to employment of pilots and ownership of Aviation enterprises.

If you want to leave in the past and say non pales can't be in the cockpit, then I'm sorry i disagree with you completely.

JG1

Afriviation, there was a good way to get SA on the right track in 1994, 12 years ago. And that was to immediately address the educution issue. there is only one way to get ahead in the world, and that is to get educated and qualified and start pulling your weight in the real world. In 12 years it was possible to get TWO university degrees!!

Passing laws favoring certain groups was proved to be a gross mistake under the apartheid government. What does the ANC government do?? The same silly thing.

Some money was allocated to education, and although some individuals looked upon this gift as their 'right' and started toyi-toyi on campus, lots of the beneficiaries are in good jobs today, helping to propel the SA economy on its path. And it's doing well.

Too much money was wasted on bullsh1t like expensive inaugurations, parties, renaming this city and that nature reserve. LOTS of money was wasted which could have been better spent on education. How many scandals, frauds etc has this government been involved in? How many freeloaders are on the gravy train? Get RID of them, get people in there who can DO THE JOB and SOME OF the squatters and the poor folk in the townships would be better off.

I say SOME OF because there are TENS OF MILLIONS of people living in poverty in SA. To subsidise them all would bankrupt the country. They have to pull themselves up. And the initial, most critical, part of that pulling themselves up is to vote the right people in who are going to care for them, not some selfish fat-cat who is going to line his own pockets.

Not everyone can afford to go to university. Not everyone can afford to train to be a pilot. Simple facts of life.

MOST South African blacks who are admittedly poor, and who do admittedly live in substandard accomodation, with substandard services, are still a hell of a lot better off than the majority of their cousins in the Congo, Mozambique, DRC, CAR, Nigeria, Guinea, Chad, Sudan...the list is exhaustive.

You do have a chip on your should against the white man, and sure, the apartheid policies were wrong. BUT. What he left your black government with to use and build upon was a damn good infrastructure and working systems.
And most whites stand shoulder to shoulder with you to build the place up and to get ahead, FAIRLY for everyone.

What we've seen you do is vote in a government which consisted of a lot of exiles who had never really held down a proper job in their lives now pop up and be MEC's, MP's and Ministers. And then you ignorantly re-vote them in simply because they were black/ANC. Just because we are white doesn't mean we will stand on your neck. We WILL help, we WILL be fair and we WILL get the job done.

But we don't like people getting jobs who are NOT ABLE to do them, because that just drags everyone down, including you.

I think the preferential hiring of white females is just as wrong as the preferential hiring of blacks. there should be NO PREFERENCE. Qualifications and experience should be the deciding factor.

Having said that I think that money should be PREFERENTIALLY ALLOCATED to the previously disadvantaged for their education so that they can better themselves and then enter the real world and start pulling their weight. If they screw up at university and don't get qualified, the only people it affects are themselves.

But to preferentially stick someone in a REAL WORLD job and then they screw up it adversely affects the real world and all who are a part of it.

comprehende?


So, vote for me next time

boyracer

Hey Guns where you mate we doing battle here and need HELP

Afriviation

boyracer you are clearly misinformed, As far as I know there is only one female Instructor at SAA, she is still a co-pilot. There are more pale female pilots than there are non pale pilots at SAA. However there are a couple of instructor rated non pale pilots at SAA. Maybe you can enlighten me as to why they are not appointed as Training pilots in line with the employment equity act. Oh off course there is a non pale Training Captain At SAA I believe he is also a DE.

Romeo E.T.

Afriaviation....2 points....who pissed you off! did you fail a check ride or a command evaluation or not get the promotion that you thought was DUE to you on the merit of your colour?

And secondly by the mere virtue that you have a computer and internet access and skills to fly and write posts on pprune means that you are now part of the advantaged group so affirmative action has worked for YOU and therefore dont you see it as your duty to instead of "ranting and raving" actually get up and use your new ADVANTAGED position and help out your fellow friends...UBUNTU

beechbum

Now that's calling the kettle black or is that non pale...to be politically correct.
Did we do badly in a sim check Afriman do bring out all of this?
Boyracer...gunns has up and left us. We need Mysticflyer.....he should set this boytjie straight!!!!!!!!!!!