Legal action against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying services(Europe)
deadly-earnest
Strong words for your first post? Says loads about your credibility.
Maybe it is time for the moderators to kill this extremely boring thread? Everything that can be said, has been said. Lately nothing constructive has been said, and it has become nothing more than a flamer.
Maybe it is time for the moderators to kill this extremely boring thread? Everything that can be said, has been said. Lately nothing constructive has been said, and it has become nothing more than a flamer.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: manchester uk
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LEGAL ACTION AGAINST NAUNTON PUGH t/a CAPE FLYING SERVICES (EUROPE).....RESULT
Conclusion to legal action against Naunton Pugh trading as Cape Flying Services (Europe)
The background to this legal action against this UK based company “touting” for Cape Flying Services based in George is well documented and has been debated in depth within this forum under different headings. These threads, clearly, being of South African aviation interest, had attracted an enormous amount of feedback from the forum.
The reason for displaying this thread, again, is primarily, to inform the result to the forum, as I said I would, that the case has been finally concluded in my favour and to warn future, in particular, european based students of the possibility that should things go wrong, no matter how small and legal action is contemplated, when you have signed up with Naunton Pugh, that unless, he recently has clearly changed his literature, he is fully responsible for the course content and it’s implementation.
Therefore, as in my case, when Gerald Todd in South Africa and Naunton Pugh based in the UK decided to brush aside and ignore the problems encountered, no matter how small they seemed and then went on a rampant crusade of blaming each other and character assassination etc to get their point across was not only definitively wrong but displayed a unique perspective of customer service. In their minds you are clearly not supposed to complain or have any reason to!
It does not matter what my ability was or not during the PPL course attended at George in April 2003 but the facts as proven in a proper legal court indicated that a breach of contract existed and Naunton Pugh was fully responsible for the contract implementation.
This legal road has been long, costly, frustrating and in my mind totally unnecessary. Although the true cost of taking action is difficult to quantify the end result and principle is worthwhile. To date no apology has been received or likely to be received by either of these characters but I will gladly bank my bank guaranteed cheque for £887 (R10644) as this cheque will go some way to recover my true costs of this action.
Be careful, like always! When using any service offered by these characters and don’t be afraid to take legal action if the matter is not sorted to a satisfactory conclusion. Because, if you are correct in taking action it is always worth the hassle to get the right result! They like others will soon get the message that the student pilot will not tolerate being ripped off; in the long term, this can only be good for aviation training all over the world
Best Wishes
Sandy Young
The background to this legal action against this UK based company “touting” for Cape Flying Services based in George is well documented and has been debated in depth within this forum under different headings. These threads, clearly, being of South African aviation interest, had attracted an enormous amount of feedback from the forum.
The reason for displaying this thread, again, is primarily, to inform the result to the forum, as I said I would, that the case has been finally concluded in my favour and to warn future, in particular, european based students of the possibility that should things go wrong, no matter how small and legal action is contemplated, when you have signed up with Naunton Pugh, that unless, he recently has clearly changed his literature, he is fully responsible for the course content and it’s implementation.
Therefore, as in my case, when Gerald Todd in South Africa and Naunton Pugh based in the UK decided to brush aside and ignore the problems encountered, no matter how small they seemed and then went on a rampant crusade of blaming each other and character assassination etc to get their point across was not only definitively wrong but displayed a unique perspective of customer service. In their minds you are clearly not supposed to complain or have any reason to!
It does not matter what my ability was or not during the PPL course attended at George in April 2003 but the facts as proven in a proper legal court indicated that a breach of contract existed and Naunton Pugh was fully responsible for the contract implementation.
This legal road has been long, costly, frustrating and in my mind totally unnecessary. Although the true cost of taking action is difficult to quantify the end result and principle is worthwhile. To date no apology has been received or likely to be received by either of these characters but I will gladly bank my bank guaranteed cheque for £887 (R10644) as this cheque will go some way to recover my true costs of this action.
Be careful, like always! When using any service offered by these characters and don’t be afraid to take legal action if the matter is not sorted to a satisfactory conclusion. Because, if you are correct in taking action it is always worth the hassle to get the right result! They like others will soon get the message that the student pilot will not tolerate being ripped off; in the long term, this can only be good for aviation training all over the world
Best Wishes
Sandy Young
Last edited by sanjo69; 23rd Mar 2005 at 11:38.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: manchester uk
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to update the forum...
The legal case against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) has now been concluded.
After nearly 2 years of legal action and only after a visit from the bailiffs to his home in the UK that full payment of the awarded costs and damages by the civil court was paid to me.
The awarded money does not come any where near to cover the effort, stress, time and money spent pursuing this case. However, it was comforting to know that my claims of breach of contract were confirmed in a court of law.
It is staggering and deeply concerning to note that this kind of legal action was necessary in the first place. Mr Pugh (UK) and Gerald Todd at Cape Flying Services, George in South Africa will surely learn from this episode and I sincerely hope that no one else will need to suffer in the same manner ever again.
I would suggest extreme caution in considering any of the services offered or provided by both of these individuals.
Many thanks to all those contributors who offered words of support.
Thank you
Sandy Young
The legal case against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) has now been concluded.
After nearly 2 years of legal action and only after a visit from the bailiffs to his home in the UK that full payment of the awarded costs and damages by the civil court was paid to me.
The awarded money does not come any where near to cover the effort, stress, time and money spent pursuing this case. However, it was comforting to know that my claims of breach of contract were confirmed in a court of law.
It is staggering and deeply concerning to note that this kind of legal action was necessary in the first place. Mr Pugh (UK) and Gerald Todd at Cape Flying Services, George in South Africa will surely learn from this episode and I sincerely hope that no one else will need to suffer in the same manner ever again.
I would suggest extreme caution in considering any of the services offered or provided by both of these individuals.
Many thanks to all those contributors who offered words of support.
Thank you
Sandy Young
GunsssR4ever
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Out there somewhere ...
Posts: 3,816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahhhh the end is in sight ....
Well that is one side to the story ...
The other side of the story is that a goverment has send students to the Cape Flying School and they came back extremely happy and had NO bad financial vows of any kind with Mr Todd or Cape Flying Services for that matter.
So yes Sandy you might have had a turd of bad luck there mate - others did not. But well done you made your point.
Seeing that you could not give any other input than your little court case on PPRUNE I pressume that at least it is the end of you ?
Or tell us how you shaped in the real flying world
Awaiting in constipation and with considerate pain
Cheers
Gunsss
The other side of the story is that a goverment has send students to the Cape Flying School and they came back extremely happy and had NO bad financial vows of any kind with Mr Todd or Cape Flying Services for that matter.
So yes Sandy you might have had a turd of bad luck there mate - others did not. But well done you made your point.
Seeing that you could not give any other input than your little court case on PPRUNE I pressume that at least it is the end of you ?
Or tell us how you shaped in the real flying world
Awaiting in constipation and with considerate pain
Cheers
Gunsss
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: south africa
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Gunzzz
But the story is far from over. With at least three more pending court cases in the pipeline we are sure to be hearing much more about these sort of outfits. It's about time they were exposed.
Well done to Sandy for not sitting back in apathy and letting these kind of unscrupulous operators get away with it. We need more people like him. The South African flight training industry is starting to face a credibility problem because of these rouges. If you're a profesional pilot you should be supportive of the people who expose these vultures instead of running them down at every oppertunity. "All that is neccesary for injustice to succeed is that good men do nothing!" A slight variation of the original - but the same message.
But the story is far from over. With at least three more pending court cases in the pipeline we are sure to be hearing much more about these sort of outfits. It's about time they were exposed.
Well done to Sandy for not sitting back in apathy and letting these kind of unscrupulous operators get away with it. We need more people like him. The South African flight training industry is starting to face a credibility problem because of these rouges. If you're a profesional pilot you should be supportive of the people who expose these vultures instead of running them down at every oppertunity. "All that is neccesary for injustice to succeed is that good men do nothing!" A slight variation of the original - but the same message.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Moscow
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Congratulations for seeing the problem through. Most people would have given up long before this. Maybe the other side will now pay up all outstanding debts , apologise and put this damaging conflict to bed.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: South Africa
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More BLA BLA BLA!!
There is an old saying: "The biggest/highest trees catches the most wind!" It's normally those people/companies that does well and so on that gets talked about. This is getting really old and boring. Doesnt this people (Sandy Young, congoman and all there little buddys!) have anything new and interesting to talk about!
Check out all the forums!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=180913
Enjoy the day!!
Check out all the forums!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=180913
Enjoy the day!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: manchester uk
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nyathi
Maybe boring to you, not so boring for some!
In fact your comments are quite insulting and totally disrepectful to all those people that have been caused financial hardship, stress and feeling totally let down, they want to do something about it and have taken the time to read, constructively participate in this topic and actually instigate legal action with success against CFS
Yes, it is an old story but an important one and until the practice stops people will come out of the woodwork and get off their ar*se and do something about it!
What constructive comments have you made about this topic ?
What is your problem with people airing their constructive comment about something they feel strong about! and When did you last get ripped off and remember how you felt about it?
You see, in this world, there are the talkers and there are doers, with a little more respect accorded to you than you give to me and all those (and counting more each day) people doing something about it, you appear to be the former!!
You appear to have no interest whatsoever in exposing poor quality training in South Africa including your suspected employer as I strongly believe that you are an employee of CFS or if you are not then you are someone with very close links to them. If you are an (new) employee then i suspect you will learn one day that if you don't toe the line you probably will end up like your previous memebers at CFS. I suggest you ask some of your previous staff members all about their treatment and some students by Mr Todd
I am sure one day you will experience being let down during your aviation experience and i look forward to constructively contributing to your story on this forum because I am sure you will post it here being a respected forum for aviation and people with an interest in aviation will contribute, irrespective.
Finally and more to the point, let me ask you why are you taking the time and effort replying if it bothers you so much?
Sandy
PS: Nyathi is an instructor at CFS, you can make you own mind up about his real motives
Maybe boring to you, not so boring for some!
In fact your comments are quite insulting and totally disrepectful to all those people that have been caused financial hardship, stress and feeling totally let down, they want to do something about it and have taken the time to read, constructively participate in this topic and actually instigate legal action with success against CFS
Yes, it is an old story but an important one and until the practice stops people will come out of the woodwork and get off their ar*se and do something about it!
What constructive comments have you made about this topic ?
What is your problem with people airing their constructive comment about something they feel strong about! and When did you last get ripped off and remember how you felt about it?
You see, in this world, there are the talkers and there are doers, with a little more respect accorded to you than you give to me and all those (and counting more each day) people doing something about it, you appear to be the former!!
You appear to have no interest whatsoever in exposing poor quality training in South Africa including your suspected employer as I strongly believe that you are an employee of CFS or if you are not then you are someone with very close links to them. If you are an (new) employee then i suspect you will learn one day that if you don't toe the line you probably will end up like your previous memebers at CFS. I suggest you ask some of your previous staff members all about their treatment and some students by Mr Todd
I am sure one day you will experience being let down during your aviation experience and i look forward to constructively contributing to your story on this forum because I am sure you will post it here being a respected forum for aviation and people with an interest in aviation will contribute, irrespective.
Finally and more to the point, let me ask you why are you taking the time and effort replying if it bothers you so much?
Sandy
PS: Nyathi is an instructor at CFS, you can make you own mind up about his real motives
Last edited by sanjo69; 17th Jul 2005 at 11:42.
Join Date: Jan 1997
Location: UK
Posts: 7,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An interesting and valid point nyathi,
Of your 15 posts on this site 4 of them regard CFS - over a quarter according to my fading skills.
A strong history of posting on a single subject or business raises our readers' eyebrows just as much whether a booster or detractor.
As an 'extreme' example consider the 'characters' on the long running huey threads who make no other contribution on any subject anywhere else on the site. It goes both ways doesn't it?
Regards
Rob
Of your 15 posts on this site 4 of them regard CFS - over a quarter according to my fading skills.
A strong history of posting on a single subject or business raises our readers' eyebrows just as much whether a booster or detractor.
As an 'extreme' example consider the 'characters' on the long running huey threads who make no other contribution on any subject anywhere else on the site. It goes both ways doesn't it?
Regards
Rob
Go for it Sandy! Keep up the good work. I am a South African and am continually appalled at the apathy in this country towards good service levels, from restaurants, to retailers, to you name it. None of it does our country's image any good, and were it not for people like you, they just get away with it, to the detriment of everybody. If you have a bone to pick with them, "Pick it!" I say, and if they've done no wrong, they have nothing to worry about, do they?
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: manchester uk
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I note with keen interest that Naunton Pugh is no longer listed on the CFS website as an "European UK based agent" for this school.
I have mixed thoughts on this development as it may now be necessary for future European students who are considering SA Training with CFS to deal directly with Gerald Todd (uhmm, oh! dear).
Based on some of the horrendous stories and the scale of the problems that are well documented within this forum; is it now time that both these individuals stay well clear of aviation training/ operations for the good of the industry?
They have offered absolutely nothing to quell the growing dissent against them.
I look forward to meeting Mr Todd, again and soon, in a South African court.
Best Wishes
Sandy Young
I have mixed thoughts on this development as it may now be necessary for future European students who are considering SA Training with CFS to deal directly with Gerald Todd (uhmm, oh! dear).
Based on some of the horrendous stories and the scale of the problems that are well documented within this forum; is it now time that both these individuals stay well clear of aviation training/ operations for the good of the industry?
They have offered absolutely nothing to quell the growing dissent against them.
I look forward to meeting Mr Todd, again and soon, in a South African court.
Best Wishes
Sandy Young
Join Date: May 2005
Location: West-Africa
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have many reasons to join in the fray and attack Gerald and CFS for my own reasons but won't since I don't agree with Mr Young or his actions. As he points out himself, he was refunded for time not flown and it seems that his main gripe is against Mr. Pugh.When one pays a non-refundable deposit one can expect that it won't be refunded. That's what it means. When any mature persons pays a non-refundable deposit ,one has to accept the risk that goes with it and therefore it is suggested that you do as much investigating as can be done before that.
Mr Young, if it is your normal practise to blindly pay non-refundable deposits, then beware, you will run into trouble. Also I'm not a great lover of agents in any form whatsoever and prefer to deal with a company directly. Any agent unfortunately ends up making promises which someone else has to try and keep. You should have realised that you won't complete your PPL in 3 weeks when you failed to go solo after the first week. You however continued and went solo after over 30 hours. These flying hours will remain valid and you can continue with your PPL in the UK. (UK Flying schools beware. Don't think any of you will be willing to take him on after all this)
Mr Young, if your gripe is with Mr Pugh, then leave CFS out of this thread completely. I don't know you and have never met you but it seems from your posts that you tend to act like a spoiled child that always gets his way and throws a tantrum if he doesn't. My advice, DROP IT AND MOVE ON!
I do know Gerald personally having worked as a Instructor at CFS. I had lots of good times there as well as some bad ones but won't give up the 2 odd years I worked there for anything.There is al lot of good and bad thing that could be said about the operations at CFS in the time that I was there. The main thing that I want to comment on, is that most students were very happy and a lot of the students who completed their CPL's would visit when in town after they had moved on. The bulk of the few unhappy students, and I don't want to generalise, were the ones who came from a small island in the Atlantic "ruled" by a Queen. Frenchy and Gary, I think you'll agree on this one. This was maybe the result of having to deal with an agent instead of talking to GT himself. Mr Pugh, no offence.
With respect Gerald, if you are reading this thread, learn from it and keep your students and instructors happy and talk to them directly and honestly! I now that you want a happy flying school with a good reputation but sometimes you make penny wise pound foolish decisions. I you see a bad apple amongst you students, cut your loses and run. Refund and offer them some-one else's services.
And guys out there, paying for any form of flying course upfront and completely is just plain stupid no matter who the company is your dealing with. It's like buying real-estate on the moon. It's payed for but that doesn't mean you'll get something from it.
Mr Young, if it is your normal practise to blindly pay non-refundable deposits, then beware, you will run into trouble. Also I'm not a great lover of agents in any form whatsoever and prefer to deal with a company directly. Any agent unfortunately ends up making promises which someone else has to try and keep. You should have realised that you won't complete your PPL in 3 weeks when you failed to go solo after the first week. You however continued and went solo after over 30 hours. These flying hours will remain valid and you can continue with your PPL in the UK. (UK Flying schools beware. Don't think any of you will be willing to take him on after all this)
Mr Young, if your gripe is with Mr Pugh, then leave CFS out of this thread completely. I don't know you and have never met you but it seems from your posts that you tend to act like a spoiled child that always gets his way and throws a tantrum if he doesn't. My advice, DROP IT AND MOVE ON!
I do know Gerald personally having worked as a Instructor at CFS. I had lots of good times there as well as some bad ones but won't give up the 2 odd years I worked there for anything.There is al lot of good and bad thing that could be said about the operations at CFS in the time that I was there. The main thing that I want to comment on, is that most students were very happy and a lot of the students who completed their CPL's would visit when in town after they had moved on. The bulk of the few unhappy students, and I don't want to generalise, were the ones who came from a small island in the Atlantic "ruled" by a Queen. Frenchy and Gary, I think you'll agree on this one. This was maybe the result of having to deal with an agent instead of talking to GT himself. Mr Pugh, no offence.
With respect Gerald, if you are reading this thread, learn from it and keep your students and instructors happy and talk to them directly and honestly! I now that you want a happy flying school with a good reputation but sometimes you make penny wise pound foolish decisions. I you see a bad apple amongst you students, cut your loses and run. Refund and offer them some-one else's services.
And guys out there, paying for any form of flying course upfront and completely is just plain stupid no matter who the company is your dealing with. It's like buying real-estate on the moon. It's payed for but that doesn't mean you'll get something from it.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: U.K.
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Propbrake, whilst I wasn't going to join in on this thread a couple of your comments did annoy me.
It wasn't by and large British students, any more than other foreign students.
The reason foreign students pay up front is not stupidity, it's to do with getting a student visa.
I myself am British, and I said on another thread I got what I paid for, a CPL ME/IR so no complaints personally.
I will say this, the three week PPL is a myth sold to beginners who don't know any better. If a company becomes aware of it's advertising being false it should do something about it.
Most of the problems at CFS were to do with lack of management, which was at the time understandable. I got the feeling though, that Gerald really should have hired a manager and had a little more faith in his own instructors, especially in regards to training on the twin.
The next problem was dealing with PPLs at all as it had plenty of CPL students who got 'pushed back' in their training to make way for those PPL students.
I agree with al lot of what you said, Propbrake but watch the little nationality based digs as we both know it's not that simple.
To potential CPL guys, my advice is to train on a tourist visa and do visa runs every once in a while. Every school has it's problems but it won't stop you from finishing. If the school your at doesn't have the aircraft you need available at that time, move to a school which does.
The written exams are not that difficult but don't expect much from lectures. Better to get the materials before you come and study by yourself. I stopped attending lectures as they just distracted me. It took six weeks of self study.
Finally, if your a CPL student be prepared to be self reliant, your going to have to be to make a career in aviation anyway so quit complaining and get used to it.
It wasn't by and large British students, any more than other foreign students.
The reason foreign students pay up front is not stupidity, it's to do with getting a student visa.
I myself am British, and I said on another thread I got what I paid for, a CPL ME/IR so no complaints personally.
I will say this, the three week PPL is a myth sold to beginners who don't know any better. If a company becomes aware of it's advertising being false it should do something about it.
Most of the problems at CFS were to do with lack of management, which was at the time understandable. I got the feeling though, that Gerald really should have hired a manager and had a little more faith in his own instructors, especially in regards to training on the twin.
The next problem was dealing with PPLs at all as it had plenty of CPL students who got 'pushed back' in their training to make way for those PPL students.
I agree with al lot of what you said, Propbrake but watch the little nationality based digs as we both know it's not that simple.
To potential CPL guys, my advice is to train on a tourist visa and do visa runs every once in a while. Every school has it's problems but it won't stop you from finishing. If the school your at doesn't have the aircraft you need available at that time, move to a school which does.
The written exams are not that difficult but don't expect much from lectures. Better to get the materials before you come and study by yourself. I stopped attending lectures as they just distracted me. It took six weeks of self study.
Finally, if your a CPL student be prepared to be self reliant, your going to have to be to make a career in aviation anyway so quit complaining and get used to it.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: West-Africa
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gooneybird, like I said, maybe the British students were the most unhappy ones in general due to the fact that they dealt with a agent and not because they were British. I agree that the three week PPL is a myth and wish that Gerald would stop using it in his literature. Personally, I have flown with only two students in my instruction career that were capable of achieving such a feat. I also think that Gerald should use a manager though I hate seeing a avaition company run by a bean counter.He had a student acting as a mananger for a while(what ever happened to Ed?)
I still stand by what I said about paying everything upfront even if your are South African and even more so if your foreign. A CPL can be broken down into many pieces. Do whatever you can to reduce the risk your are taking.
I still stand by what I said about paying everything upfront even if your are South African and even more so if your foreign. A CPL can be broken down into many pieces. Do whatever you can to reduce the risk your are taking.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: U.K.
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair enough I see your point.
What you wrote seems a well balanced and accurate picture of what I saw too.
Actually with CFS being pretty low priced I think they'd do better with no agent at all. But it's not my business.
A manager during my time there would have freed up more of Gerald's time to instruct students, at which I found him very good.
My advice about tourist visas was wrong by the way. South African law states that you must have a valid study visa to obtain an SAA CAA license. As you said Propbrake, people should pay as little up front as they can.
What you wrote seems a well balanced and accurate picture of what I saw too.
Actually with CFS being pretty low priced I think they'd do better with no agent at all. But it's not my business.
A manager during my time there would have freed up more of Gerald's time to instruct students, at which I found him very good.
My advice about tourist visas was wrong by the way. South African law states that you must have a valid study visa to obtain an SAA CAA license. As you said Propbrake, people should pay as little up front as they can.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: manchester uk
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Propbrake..
Like you say I don't know you but it would have been wiser for you to have read the whole story about CFS before making some of the comments you have made about me and my experience at CFS.
Besides this there are numerous people around the world including South Africa that have utilised the services of Gerald Todd directly or through his other worldwide agents and through Naunton Pugh based in the UK. These students have had to endure wide ranging experiences including marriage break ups, nervous breakdowns and financial ruin etc directly caused by these people. These are not my words but the cold facts. This is the way they operate, together in manipulative collaboration, I personally experienced this through all my communications with both of them in the UK and South Africa.
You have not seen the marketing information solely provided by Pugh, nor have you personally witnessed the discussions and written communication that have taken place between all the parties, nor have you personally witnessed the arrogant and insulting "blame each other" culture of these two men. The documentation available is jointly very critical against Todd and Pugh. You, correctly, point out certain business improovement initiatives that Todd could implement. I would sincerely hope that he takes a long hard look at the situation and starts sonner than later to try and put things right for the people he has treated badly. Gerald Todd/ CFS has implicated himself by his own actions in this, my own, situation.
They both are equally as guilty and because I took the view that my contract was conducted solely through an independent UK business, therefore , Mr Pugh was successfully taken to court for breaches of contract not just flying time not taken and a non refundable deposit. I would have welcomed the opportunity for Gerald Todd to have been in court to defend my claims but he never appeared.
My, well debated, documented and at times critical personal experience is just the tip of the iceberg and was probably just the straw that broke the camels back!
Believe me when I say that If the situation was solely a failure of my doing then I would have been mature enough to quietly move on and taken the incident on the chin. One or two isolated incidents would be an acceptable percentage but the sheer volume and similiar nature of these problems cannot and should not be ignored, giving a clear and unquestionable indication of an alarming pattern of normal operations of past and present day CFS/ Todd and Pugh.
Tell me the real reasons why you defend this organisation so much when you admit there are fundemental and serious problems with them, don't be blinded, like others, by Gerald's charm and manipulative personality because he will drop you when you have served your purpose. Just take a moment and think about all the other people who have suffered at their hands and some far more serious problems than me without even a personal apology!
Sandy Young
Like you say I don't know you but it would have been wiser for you to have read the whole story about CFS before making some of the comments you have made about me and my experience at CFS.
Besides this there are numerous people around the world including South Africa that have utilised the services of Gerald Todd directly or through his other worldwide agents and through Naunton Pugh based in the UK. These students have had to endure wide ranging experiences including marriage break ups, nervous breakdowns and financial ruin etc directly caused by these people. These are not my words but the cold facts. This is the way they operate, together in manipulative collaboration, I personally experienced this through all my communications with both of them in the UK and South Africa.
You have not seen the marketing information solely provided by Pugh, nor have you personally witnessed the discussions and written communication that have taken place between all the parties, nor have you personally witnessed the arrogant and insulting "blame each other" culture of these two men. The documentation available is jointly very critical against Todd and Pugh. You, correctly, point out certain business improovement initiatives that Todd could implement. I would sincerely hope that he takes a long hard look at the situation and starts sonner than later to try and put things right for the people he has treated badly. Gerald Todd/ CFS has implicated himself by his own actions in this, my own, situation.
They both are equally as guilty and because I took the view that my contract was conducted solely through an independent UK business, therefore , Mr Pugh was successfully taken to court for breaches of contract not just flying time not taken and a non refundable deposit. I would have welcomed the opportunity for Gerald Todd to have been in court to defend my claims but he never appeared.
My, well debated, documented and at times critical personal experience is just the tip of the iceberg and was probably just the straw that broke the camels back!
Believe me when I say that If the situation was solely a failure of my doing then I would have been mature enough to quietly move on and taken the incident on the chin. One or two isolated incidents would be an acceptable percentage but the sheer volume and similiar nature of these problems cannot and should not be ignored, giving a clear and unquestionable indication of an alarming pattern of normal operations of past and present day CFS/ Todd and Pugh.
Tell me the real reasons why you defend this organisation so much when you admit there are fundemental and serious problems with them, don't be blinded, like others, by Gerald's charm and manipulative personality because he will drop you when you have served your purpose. Just take a moment and think about all the other people who have suffered at their hands and some far more serious problems than me without even a personal apology!
Sandy Young
Join Date: May 2005
Location: West-Africa
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Young..
I'm not defending GT or CFS, I think that is clear.I merely critical of your actions.I have my own story to tell but I won't digress. At a time I wanted to strangle the man on sight but I moved on and am better for it and today I can shake his hand again should I run into him. You had a bad experience, you had your day in court, you've told everybody about it, now move on!
Gerald is no saint but his is also not the Anti-Christ like you want everybody to believe.I can think of 1 guy who now sits in the left seat of a 737 because Gerald helped him from PPL right through to Instructor. How Gerald treats you is greatly dependand on your own attitude and your attitude towards him.
What I'm trying to say is, that your experience at CFS is greatly dependand on what you make of it. If you put your head down and work hard, you will have a great time. My recommendation is that CFS, as I know it, is not for those who expect to be pampered through a PPL or CPL. However if you pay your money and do your thing, you will get your money's worth.
Further than this I can unfortunately not comment on. Please let this be the end of this...
..changing frequency, over and out.
I'm not defending GT or CFS, I think that is clear.I merely critical of your actions.I have my own story to tell but I won't digress. At a time I wanted to strangle the man on sight but I moved on and am better for it and today I can shake his hand again should I run into him. You had a bad experience, you had your day in court, you've told everybody about it, now move on!
Gerald is no saint but his is also not the Anti-Christ like you want everybody to believe.I can think of 1 guy who now sits in the left seat of a 737 because Gerald helped him from PPL right through to Instructor. How Gerald treats you is greatly dependand on your own attitude and your attitude towards him.
What I'm trying to say is, that your experience at CFS is greatly dependand on what you make of it. If you put your head down and work hard, you will have a great time. My recommendation is that CFS, as I know it, is not for those who expect to be pampered through a PPL or CPL. However if you pay your money and do your thing, you will get your money's worth.
Further than this I can unfortunately not comment on. Please let this be the end of this...
..changing frequency, over and out.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Moscow
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it fascinating that someone like Propbrake sees this thread topic - and instead of ignoring it reads everything, writes more than one reply THEN has the gall to say DROP IT!
If he is not interested in the subject then I suggest he create or contribute to a subject that he is. To criticise the authors for airing valid criticism is pointless and just makes everyone wonder what his real motives are.
And furthermore ----> To have a go at ALL British people is also dangerous and will elicit a response that he will not like!
If he is not interested in the subject then I suggest he create or contribute to a subject that he is. To criticise the authors for airing valid criticism is pointless and just makes everyone wonder what his real motives are.
And furthermore ----> To have a go at ALL British people is also dangerous and will elicit a response that he will not like!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spetsnaz,
I don't see what is wrong in what Propbrake is saying. He is totally right both about GT / CFS and about what Sandy should do (i.e. Drop it). Why should he not be allowed to comment on what is being said. Especially since he actually worked there...
I know Propbrake. He was not only my instructor at CFS but we were also flatmates. He is a decent and honest guy. He has absolutely no reason to promote CFS as he left there quite a long time ago.
I agree with his comments totally. But then maybe you are like Sandy and had a bad experience at CFS which would account for your blatent unacceptance of anything other than criticism towards CFS.
By the way, do read Propbrake's messages properly. He never 'had a go at' all brits...
Frenchy
I don't see what is wrong in what Propbrake is saying. He is totally right both about GT / CFS and about what Sandy should do (i.e. Drop it). Why should he not be allowed to comment on what is being said. Especially since he actually worked there...
I know Propbrake. He was not only my instructor at CFS but we were also flatmates. He is a decent and honest guy. He has absolutely no reason to promote CFS as he left there quite a long time ago.
I agree with his comments totally. But then maybe you are like Sandy and had a bad experience at CFS which would account for your blatent unacceptance of anything other than criticism towards CFS.
By the way, do read Propbrake's messages properly. He never 'had a go at' all brits...
Frenchy