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Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

South Asia and Far East Wannabes A forum for those applying to Cathay Pacific, Dragonair or any other Hong Kong-based airline or operator. Use this area for both Direct Entry Pilot and Cadet-scheme queries.

Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

Old 17th Jan 2012, 07:21
  #3601 (permalink)  
 
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In all honesty, I'd rather gain information from people I know personally than others hiding behind a computer screen.

Seriously, this guy was joined Cathay and within 10 years (he started at 25) was chief pilot. He took advantage of the resources available at CX and as such was rewarded.

Some posters here, on the other hand, may have been flying for 20+ years, yet all they do is complain about conditions at CX. An airline isn't going to reward pilots who aren't happy and negative about the company.

Simple maths.

He gave me the advice that if you approach work, or more importantly life, in a positive manner, then Karma will reward you.

All you ever do is complain about money. Money isn't everything. If it is, then get another job, as you obviously have the wrong priorities.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 09:42
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So he joined in a time of rapid expansion. Lucky.
He became a manager. I've never understood (or trusted) pilots who aspire to a desk job.
Why? Because they are more intelligent than you? Because they are more respected than you? Because you know that you couldn't get a position like that, even if you tried?

no he wan't 'rewarded', he was paid a good salary with good benfefits for doing his job, flying 400 fare paying passengers safely to their destination.
Is it too much to ask that professional pilots nowadays be well compensated for their skills, as your friend was in the past? Or are you happy to see the T&C's and benefits of your future career continously erode?
He was rewarded for being loyal to CX and showing EQ. Clearly you don't have this skill.

you're right, I'm still waiting for my 'reward'.
Why would you be rewarded? You always complain about CX. You moan about people getting better career opportunities than you.

Wonderful, an ex-CX Chief Pilot, who is also a life skills guru.
Called EQ. It's needed to be successful.

Very easy to talk about how great 'karma' is when he probably retired with millions in a provident fund, and millions in property from a real housing allowance benefit. Both of which the i-kids will never see.
1.2M that increases annually, from the 12th year of employment onwards.

Seems like a lot of money to me.

You obviously don't have a family to feed and shelter and send to school, and plan for their future. When you do you can re-read your above post and realize how inmature you are.

But, you are right, money isn't everything, then again, neither is getting a crappy, dead-end, SO job at CX. (Nor matter how much an ex A scale, Chief Pilot likes to talk it up)
Someone has to be an SO. You get promoted after a maximum 4 years as an SO to JFO, then become captain 8 years later.

If the money you earn from CX is your sole income, then you must be crazy. Share dividends etc can earn tens of thousands per year.

Plus CX give you a housing allowance, depending on your rank at CX. Something like 18k a month when captain.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 10:00
  #3603 (permalink)  
 
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truss20... we all know you are management or god forbid... part of recruitment. Give it up!!!
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 11:22
  #3604 (permalink)  
 
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I on the other hand am loving this!

What a W^NKER! Either way, if he's a company boy it reeks of desperation. If he's honestly an iCadet hopeful then even better! CX attract immature brat know-it-alls like this nowadays. Karma he says??!! Well, CX the big wheel is turning and here is your karma!! Either a) this is the depths your staff will go to, or b) the style of applicant you attract. Karma!!!

It's so easy to make millions from these illustrious share portfolios after all! Who would've thought? Easy money! Who ever loses on the stock market, especially in this day and age?? It's so easy - sort of like flying an aircraft on Xbox or watching a youtube video. This guy's got his whole career nailed!

Kid, no one is bitter or complains about the job they asked for, signed for and agreed to. (In my case interviewed for and was offered). What they are angry at is that what they signed and was offered is not respected or lived up to by the other party. In fact, they search vehemently for ways to get around them. They lie, cheat and deceive. All facts published and proven. You haven't a clue, so again this is the funny thing about you. You're just an immature, clueless idiot.

In the mean time fella, best prepare for your interview. I'd like to say get stretched, lubed and bent over but methinks you're already well seasoned.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 12:10
  #3605 (permalink)  
 
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Good. I hope you do turn people off the cadetship...more chance of myself getting in.

So ChinaBeached, you say that there a "published and proven facts" that state Cathay lie and cheat. Show me that information, but please don't link me to a post from another jealous hater as that is not evidence.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 12:24
  #3606 (permalink)  
 
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That again just demonstrates your complete ignorance. You have done no background research but from this out of touch idol of yours. More chance for you? You don't need it! You have friends in high places to recommend you don't you... And a financial plan about to make you millions. It's all so EASY!!!

The book is called "The 49ers - The True Story" by Captain John Warham.

That book has been mentioned countless times on this, and other forums / threads. Nothing it that book could have been published for fear of litigation.

Read it. And while you're at it - grow up.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 16:01
  #3607 (permalink)  
 
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internet forum war of all places it's on this forum.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 01:06
  #3608 (permalink)  
 
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ChinaBeached is hitting hard on everyones posts! lol i wasnt trying to give sound advice to follow, just my opinion. It's a hard life I'm sure being an SO at CX, but if you're willing to put the effort, bite your tongue and live like a poor person! do it lol.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 01:59
  #3609 (permalink)  
 
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Sidhu, have an opinion by all means but back it up. Where do your opinions come from?

Experience?

Credentials?

Knowledge?

Or pipedreams, wishful thinking, stary-eyed ignorance & a head in the sand mentality.

You guys want 1+1 to = 11. People with little things like experience, credentials & knowledge are explaining the answer is 2. But you'll have the audacity, ignorance & self-absorbed ideal to argue based on your "opinion".

So as not to come down "hard" on your fantasies:- the world is flat, you can make gold from urine, the stock market is a bottomless pit of self-service cash, there was / is no gloabal financial crisis and fairies exist. That should satisfy your study prep as I'm sure I've already exceeded your aviation, airline & CX knowledge base.

Most pilots of today value the ideals & principles the pilots of tomorrow (you, Truss & co) are lining up to crap all over & call a good opportunity.

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 18th Jan 2012 at 02:23.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 03:49
  #3610 (permalink)  
 
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I've been reading this forum for a while, and felt it time for myself to make a comment. First let me state that I do not fly for CX.

It seems to me that alot of people on here living in the past, hoping to hold onto some grasp of "good ole days". Terms and conditions are reducing across the board for pretty much everyone involved in aviation. Thats a fact. It sucks, however its true. No new pilots will ever fly for the 1980's CX, the 1990's Qantas or for the european legacy's of the same era. These companies don't exist

What I would ask to the main contributors on here is this, what else would you have these "wannabees" do? Stay in GA? Fly regional for crap money in the hope of one day getting on the ever increasing number of low cost carriers? In my opinion this program, especially for someone without the money to fund their own training, seems to be one of the better options available. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I'm also wondering if the current A-scale pilots feel the same way about pilots signing B-sacle contracts back in the 90's? Honest question.

On a side note, I do agree that some of the hopeful applicants who have posted in the last fe pages might want to check their smugness at the door! Its not a good trait, especially in aviation. Having said that, some of the 'experienced' guys should probably do the same! If you dont like the company you work for.....leave! Simple. Getting angry at kids over the internet seems a little pathetic.

And before Chinabeached and other angry men start their ranting, yes my opinion IS based on a wealth of experience and knowledge.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 05:36
  #3611 (permalink)  
 
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@letsgofishing This is what I've been trying to say. These problems are not limited only to Cathay, but most large airlines worldwide. Virtually all the American airlines have had to enter some form of Bankrupcy and subsequently merge with one and other (Continental+United etc), so the problem with money is not something that only Cathay face.

Again, the prospect of free training in 61 weeks as opposed to paying 100kAUD (900kHKD) and having to get hours up over the period of 4-5 years by your own will power and motivation is very appealling to people who have 0 hours.

For myself, my other options are to try for a Jetstar or Virgin Aus. Cadetship, both of which want you to pay 40k upfront+a further 80k that comes out of your salary! QANTAS is out of the question due to their 're-branding.'

Add to that living in an awesome city like HK, with the option to move back to Aus after 5 years makes the program seem a very attractive proposal.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 06:01
  #3612 (permalink)  
 
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Truss20 I understand what your are saying, however there are many things that you can take from the commenst on this site. For example, if you want to fly with Cathay, do not bank on moving back to Australia. The company is based in Hong Kong, the company will always be based in Hong Kong, expected to live there for your entire career if you intend on staying with them.

However if you are planning on using Cathay as a means to get a licence and then after your 6 years, leave, then i would suggest that maybe your priorities are not in the right place. Cathay is not a stepping stone airline!

just something to think about.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 08:21
  #3613 (permalink)  
 
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True

I wish there was a 'like' button on Pprune.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 08:37
  #3614 (permalink)  
 
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Fishing....my "rant" is as valid as your "rant".

I disagree completely with your defeatist attitude that we should just blindly accept lower terms, conditions, training standards, applicant requirements, and safety. Just because it happens, does't make it right. If as you say you do have the credentials and experience - and I trust you do if you say - then to defend this is just incredibly wrong in any professional airman's eyes.

In aviation we seek to always find higher standards, and promote higher levels of safety. You claim to accept and almost welcome the lowering of them. I cannot for the life of me comprehend how an experienced pilot could say such a thing.

All the rights and standards you had and have were once fought for by another. And what ever happened to leaving the profession in a better place then when you entered it?

Please then by all means place your nearest and dearest on the next flight with the cheapest option at the helm.

It seems to me that alot of people on here living in the past, hoping to hold onto some grasp of "good ole days". Terms and conditions are reducing across the board for pretty much everyone involved in aviation. Thats a fact. It sucks, however its true. No new pilots will ever fly for the 1980's CX, the 1990's Qantas or for the european legacy's of the same era. These companies don't exist.
You're right. And why? Because the opinion you have offered allows it. Pilots are and always will be their own worst enemy. So why cower down to the lowest common denominator? Why not fight for the raising of the bar??!! Call it market rates, call it a sign of the times, call it anything else.... Terms and conditions ARE NOT lowering across the board. How did Slosar's terms and conditions get lowered? No - he just received a 70% pay increase as he seeks to make some 400 pilots redundant. And how has CX's DFO or GM, etc suffered? Have their terms and conditions lowered? Hell no. Their salaries have grown far in excess of the CPI while the pilots had to threaten CC just for a pay rise due for over a decade just in line with inflation! (From memory of an AOA update the DFO received over a 72% [????] pay increase over the same period the pilots had received nothing, and he fought to withhold any increase in pilot salaries) So, no. This is not an "across the board" issue at all, and far from it. It is greed. Shear greed. And it comes at the expense of standards and safety as the trade off. And the target is squarely aimed at those naive enough to go for it. Do you not ask yourself why so many experienced pilots do not apply to CX anymore? They know what they and the job are worth and refuse it.

CX recently reduced the SO FFS training by 50%. It was once 12 sims for DESO who came with ATPL's and 1000's of hours experience, but now 6 sims for a fresh CPL holder yet to fly a commercial aircraft. So please don't say there is no safety or training being compromised.

What I would ask to the main contributors on here is this, what else would you have these "wannabees" do? Stay in GA? Fly regional for crap money in the hope of one day getting on the ever increasing number of low cost carriers? In my opinion this program, especially for someone without the money to fund their own training, seems to be one of the better options available. I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Yes. They would build "experience" and "knowledge" and "credentials" before being let loose on potentially 400+ pax. After 6 years, where would they go? They have no recognisable hours outside of the CX / CAD umbrella. The P2X rating or therefore hours are not recognised. So, when they become JFO they start their ICAO "loggable" hours from where they last left their Dutchess or C152. So, add at least 4 years to that 6 before even hoping to be completive just for a light twin job back in Oz. Too bad if there is an unforeseen need to leave CX and HK... They are screwed. LONG TERM affects of living in HK on a housing allowance not factored to inflationary affects.... A house/apartment to save for and buy? A wife? A family? Education? Single income with wife pregnant? And so on.... These guys by and large have zero appreciation or care for these things. They just see "big shiny jet quick".

In GA or a RHS job on a turboprop or even RHS in a 737 / A320 at least builds credible and recognisable hours that they can use. They OWN those hours, as opposed to the shackles CX places on them.

And lastly, what of the pressure on the present day CX pilots contacts? If one group of hopefuls will do it for approx 60% less, hell, why not create another 49ers on a larger scale and sack even more and fill those spots with the cheapest option??!! (Exaggerated example, of course). Who cares of safety and standards when cheap is all that is sought after??

And then we have young not even wet behind the ears Truss here who has done so very little research about the job. He is pinning his financial security on making millions from the stock market and moving back to Oz after 5 years. He knows nothing of the real job and of course less than nothing about the basing fiasco presently going on at CX. And this is the future of the industry. What an insult.

So, does this CEP contribute to aviation in general or detract from it?

Fishing, I'm happy to have an educated discussion about this if you wish. We can agree to disagree but maybe best via PM's.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 10:30
  #3615 (permalink)  
 
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By no stretch am i promoting the lowering of training standards or the lowering of terms and conditions within the aviation industry, i'm simply stating that its possibly not fair to blame these young kids for this very fact!

As far as doing less sims, I would possibly suggest that this is simply due to the sim training such cadets receive in adelaide.....once again happy to be corrected.

Also it might not be fair to group all Cadets in the same basket....is there not 2 other streams that cater to the more experienced? wouldn't this mean you guys would getting a fair bunch or experienced pilot?

Surely something needs to be done within the current collection of pilots, rather than simply asking the younger guys to give up an opportunity. you'd be hard pressed to find a pilot who would give up a job, so as not to upset someone or keep them happy.

Just my thoughts
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 12:19
  #3616 (permalink)  
 
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....and therein lies the key:

A "ME FIRST & SCREW THE REST & THE REPERCUSSIONS" attitude.

No, the cadets do not receive 744, A330/340 or 777 sim time in AD. Their FFS training has been halved as cost saving exercise. So, after 6 sims your never-flown-a-commercial-aircraft-pilot-dude is now the soul occupant of the cockpit when the LHS driver is taking a leak.

Yes, they do offer different courses for differing levels of experience. But by and large (correct me if wrong) the overwhelming majority of applicants are ab initio. By and large pilots with experience value their experience and profession. Pilots with an ATP / ATPL accepting this CEP are very few and very far between. And do you not ask why??

This IS NOT an "opportunity". It is a grab for cash using the stary-eyed ignorance of kids who want to be pilots and do not know, or in the overwhelming case on this forum do not want to know the realities. It is precisely candy from a baby.

But yes, I do blame any "adult" (as these kids are meant to be treated as if > 18) putting forth the most idiotic remarks to justify this CEP, as the likes of Truss here has. I do blame pilots for screwing their own profession like this. And I do blame these "adults" who either know or refuse to acknowledge what they are creating by accepting it. Blame them for agreeing to this? Yes.

Like I've said a few times, one day these guys will be screwed over by either management, another pilot / colleague or both. They'll have the remarkable audacity to feel insulted when all along this is what they are doing right here and now - willingly.

So again, does this CEP contribute to higher standards in aviation or detract from them?

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 18th Jan 2012 at 12:40.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 12:58
  #3617 (permalink)  
 
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Guys, a question. What is the time that your application is going to expire? So you have to fill in a new application..?

Thanks.

CW
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 12:58
  #3618 (permalink)  
 
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truss20

Again, the prospect of free training in 61 weeks as opposed to paying 100kAUD (900kHKD) and having to get hours up over the period of 4-5 years by your own will power and motivation is very appealling to people who have 0 hours.
Firstly, it is not free training. You will be bonded for 6 years, break it - then pay $$$. You will also be leaving with hardly any experience!
If you decide to leave as an S/O you will not have a command rating endorsement or a co-pilot rating endorsement on the aircraft you flew. If you leave as a JFO/FO you will only have the a hours you accumulated once in that position. A pretty small amount for 6 years of flying and no financial savings since the housing deal is now crap!!

Secondly, if you have Zero hours... then sorry, you are no longer eligible as there is now a requirement to have a minimum of 250hrs. Surely you knew this though, since you are from recruitment
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 14:39
  #3619 (permalink)  
 
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I was in the bank a few days ago and overheard (I couldn't help it - I was in the cubicle adjacent) a new S/O BEGGING the bank for a loan.

Heart wrenching really. The bankers (two of them) were very politely explaining that he earned too little, had a massive tax liability and frankly, hadn't a hope at his salary level, despite him trying to boost it by adding subsistence and travel allowances(!)

For a loan, they added, he would have to come up with 33% of sale value plus stamp duties before they could even consider it, but that he was a long way off with barely $10K a month in savings.

He left rather dejected, a few bank brochures in hand, almost in tears.

This, newbies and wannabees, is the reality of this "new" Cathay.

What more can I say?
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 01:59
  #3620 (permalink)  
 
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And this is mine / our point precisely.

It is the LONG TERM which is what these kids refuse to consider (and CX prey on). "But I have friends at CX as iCadets who are getting by OK...." Really? But are they saving and able to plan for a secure future? No. Many posts back I calculated approximately 22 years, give or take a few of course, before an iCadet starting from zero could afford to OWN outright a property in HK (valued at approx $5.5 million HKD). Their savings capacity against their salary, the lending requirements mixed with a diminishing net housing package, inflation..... No. And no sympathy for this guy in question. He made his bed and only now he's finding the fleas, bed bugs & lice that he was told were prevalent.

I would be assuming he would be watching every dollar, has been for some time and still is only able to "save" $10k HKD per month. And again I'll wager he hasn't factored in a potential family, kids, single income with pregnant wife, not to mention life's "what if's" that will happen if he is remotely surprised by the bank's response.

What astounds me even more that the iCadet in this example didn't take Truss' advice and make quick 'n easy millions from the stock market?

Then again, what would banks or lending institutions know.....
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