Guimbal Cabri G2
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Is that £350 inclusive of VAT? I hire a 22 for £210 an hour inclusive. Seems jolly expensive to me. I had a very preliminary look into buying a G2 as a private owner. Financially, the R22 wins hands down, despite the claims of cheap engineering costs. You can own an R22 for 24 years and still not pay the purchase cost of a G2. I'd love a G2, but at their current cost I'd rather have an R44.
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Seems jolly expensive to me. I had a very preliminary look into buying a G2 as a private owner. Financially, the R22 wins hands down, despite the claims of cheap engineering costs. You can own an R22 for 24 years and still not pay the purchase cost of a G2.
The Robinson product appears to be a fantastic way to fly Rotary, for those who really can't /won't afford it with a conventional, more robust machine...Me, if I were at that end of the market, I'd be happier in an Autogiro,with a 2-blade teetering head.. The Robinson is/was a far superior machine to the Rotorway-which, again, made the unaffordable accessible.
The Guimbal has had a very successful introduction to the market-place. I, like a lot of others, was very sceptical, especially given the attitude to guarantee.
Those fears appear to be unfounded. The machine is robust, well engineered, has a "grown up" 3-blade main Rotor, and owners are not continually getting fearsome bills for delaminated blades, bladder-tanks, severe corrosion in tailboom joints etc.
Did you really study the total Cost of Ownership, or was the Robbo salesmanthat good?
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R22/Cabri cost of ownership
Spot on there 500e. There is no way that you can own a R22 for 24 years and still come out ahead of the Cabri.
Approx list price for a new Cabri is around €300,000 and for a similarly equipped R22 $288,000 both ex-works. Converted to GBP at the commercial rate rate shown on BBC website a few minutes ago ( £1=$1.6USD & €1=78p) the purchase price will be £234,000 for the Cabri and £180,000 for the R22.
Where GS-A's argument really falls down is in the total cost of ownership. Expect an R22 overhaul to cost £85,000 for the first overhaul and £100,000 for the second overhaul. A Cabri on the other hand will cost around £35,000 to overhaul at 2,200 hrs. Both sets of overhaul costs here are real world figures confirmed today.
All Robinson products have a finite calendar life. Go away on holiday for two weeks and your R44 will be worth less just sitting in the hangar.
The only calendar lifed item on the Cabri is the fuel bladder at 15 years, approx £6,500 to replace.
Although superficially the R44 Raven I looks a similar price to the Cabri you can expect to pay £131,000 for an overhaul, plus you will be burning 53 litres an hour, as opposed to 38 in the Cabri.
There is no escaping the fact that Cabri costs more to buy than a new R22 but the running costs are lower. The Cabri is more robust, does not suffer from corrosion, is much safer and a joy to fly.
Approx list price for a new Cabri is around €300,000 and for a similarly equipped R22 $288,000 both ex-works. Converted to GBP at the commercial rate rate shown on BBC website a few minutes ago ( £1=$1.6USD & €1=78p) the purchase price will be £234,000 for the Cabri and £180,000 for the R22.
Where GS-A's argument really falls down is in the total cost of ownership. Expect an R22 overhaul to cost £85,000 for the first overhaul and £100,000 for the second overhaul. A Cabri on the other hand will cost around £35,000 to overhaul at 2,200 hrs. Both sets of overhaul costs here are real world figures confirmed today.
All Robinson products have a finite calendar life. Go away on holiday for two weeks and your R44 will be worth less just sitting in the hangar.
The only calendar lifed item on the Cabri is the fuel bladder at 15 years, approx £6,500 to replace.
Although superficially the R44 Raven I looks a similar price to the Cabri you can expect to pay £131,000 for an overhaul, plus you will be burning 53 litres an hour, as opposed to 38 in the Cabri.
There is no escaping the fact that Cabri costs more to buy than a new R22 but the running costs are lower. The Cabri is more robust, does not suffer from corrosion, is much safer and a joy to fly.
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If you look at just the capital cost of a G2 vs.that of an R22 plus an R22 12 year overhaul it's going to be close. Plus the cost of the overhaul is not tied up in a loan for the first 12 years.
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I made the difference in initial purchase price to be in the region of £100k, which is greater than the cost of one full 12 year overhaul. That was my point. Yes it is probable the R22 would be worth less than the G2 at the end of the second 12 year period (before overhaul), but then who knows what the value of a 24 year old G2 will actually be?
At current prices, I'd rather buy an R44 than a G2. However, if the G2 was closer to the price of an R22 the decision to go for a G2 despite unknown future second hand value would be far easier, and lessons would not need to cost £350. That was the point I was making. My choice as a private helicopter flyer would be train on an R22 and buy an R44 rather than train on and buy a G2.
To add balance to the argument, I have not actually flown a G2 (although I know highly experienced pilots who have). However, I did in my initial post state I was arguing purely from a financial perspective.
At current prices, I'd rather buy an R44 than a G2. However, if the G2 was closer to the price of an R22 the decision to go for a G2 despite unknown future second hand value would be far easier, and lessons would not need to cost £350. That was the point I was making. My choice as a private helicopter flyer would be train on an R22 and buy an R44 rather than train on and buy a G2.
To add balance to the argument, I have not actually flown a G2 (although I know highly experienced pilots who have). However, I did in my initial post state I was arguing purely from a financial perspective.
.
GS-Alpha
Hello GS-A,
You're choise seems to be a good one.
However and as you're in the UK, just have a look at this comment (from a HeliHub news) made by a private UK operator who knows very well R22 and R44, there are few facts very interesting (and at the time the exchange rate was not as good as now !) :
"The private purchaser is an experienced helicopter owner, having had two Robinson R22s and three R44s in the last 24 years. He told HeliHub.com that his move away from the successful California-built helicopters was driven both by Guimbal’s modern construction methods, and also the freedom of being away from the mandatory 12 year Robinson overhauls."
"The Cabri’s composite construction means that there is no corrosion, something he has been very familiar with on his five Robinsons. He is also looking forward to operating on premium mogas, providing a saving of £18 ($27) per hour."
"The purchaser told HeliHub.com that he does not get close to the 183 hours a year needed to reach the 2,200 hours in 12 years – the point where a Robinson helicopter needs to spend some months away on a costly complete strip-down overhaul. The Lycoming engine (same as the R22) is the only lifed item in the French-built craft. The Cabri gearbox overhaul is currently scheduled at 3,000 hours (against the Robinson’s 2,200) and Guimbal are working with EASA to stretch that out to 4,000 hours. It is clear that he has done his sums and they are all stacked in favour of the Cabri."
Third Cabri sold into UK market | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
.
GS-Alpha
My choice as a private helicopter flyer would be train on an R22 and buy an R44 rather than train on and buy a G2
Hello GS-A,
You're choise seems to be a good one.
However and as you're in the UK, just have a look at this comment (from a HeliHub news) made by a private UK operator who knows very well R22 and R44, there are few facts very interesting (and at the time the exchange rate was not as good as now !) :
"The private purchaser is an experienced helicopter owner, having had two Robinson R22s and three R44s in the last 24 years. He told HeliHub.com that his move away from the successful California-built helicopters was driven both by Guimbal’s modern construction methods, and also the freedom of being away from the mandatory 12 year Robinson overhauls."
"The Cabri’s composite construction means that there is no corrosion, something he has been very familiar with on his five Robinsons. He is also looking forward to operating on premium mogas, providing a saving of £18 ($27) per hour."
"The purchaser told HeliHub.com that he does not get close to the 183 hours a year needed to reach the 2,200 hours in 12 years – the point where a Robinson helicopter needs to spend some months away on a costly complete strip-down overhaul. The Lycoming engine (same as the R22) is the only lifed item in the French-built craft. The Cabri gearbox overhaul is currently scheduled at 3,000 hours (against the Robinson’s 2,200) and Guimbal are working with EASA to stretch that out to 4,000 hours. It is clear that he has done his sums and they are all stacked in favour of the Cabri."
Third Cabri sold into UK market | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 12th Jul 2015 at 18:54.
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@ GS Alpha......your financial planning sounds like that of the average Corporate bean-counter who only looks to make a favourable impression and cream off the bonuses, whilst he's in the job....then jump ship before the excreta hits the fan.
If you are that constrained, short term, you really can't afford Rotary.
An aquaintance used to fly an Enstrom....traded" up" to an R44 which bit him big-style.....I believe, some years later,he still walks with a limp and flies an Enstrom again.
Everything I have seen and read about the Robinson product, points to a product built down to a minimum. It succeds and as a result has opened-up an entirely new market....Wannabe's who could never have afforded a heli otherwise, and (probably an unexpected bonus to RHC)-flight-schools who could massively reduce their operating costs whilst offering modern machines.
As pointed out, the downsides to Robinson ownership are the known Lifed components, the known timed components and the unknown failures (rotor-blades?) and very expensive AD's.
AFAIK, there have not been any such calls on the wallet for Guimbal owners.
Everything I have read, suggests a well-engineered product designed for a long and reliable working life.
As such, it's residual will always be higher than a Robinson....
(Something that flight-schools seem to be latching on to! ) Calculate the calendar-life or the hours flown....If you're buying a 10 year old Machine, your Robbo is a hangar-queen in 2 years time...OK she's still worth "core" value for rebuilding........meanwhile, the Cabri owner is still flying AND has all those GPH fuel savings in the bank as well.
Ever heard the expression "penny-wise, pound foolish."?
Given the low interest-rates at the moment, It would make excellent economic sense to borrow the extra to buy a Cabri and start saving from the first turn of the key.
I haven't even started on it's inherently safer, more robust, more forgiving design, yet.
No vested interest here, just an enthusiastic observer who made my little bit of cash the hard way and make every penny count.
Oh, I've never flown in either and I'm highly unlikely to trust my life to a Robinson Aviator whom I don't know to be a true "sky-God"... In other words, "Thanks, but no thanks"...yea, I'm a risk-averse wuss and don't want a violent premature demise even at my age.
If you are that constrained, short term, you really can't afford Rotary.
An aquaintance used to fly an Enstrom....traded" up" to an R44 which bit him big-style.....I believe, some years later,he still walks with a limp and flies an Enstrom again.
Everything I have seen and read about the Robinson product, points to a product built down to a minimum. It succeds and as a result has opened-up an entirely new market....Wannabe's who could never have afforded a heli otherwise, and (probably an unexpected bonus to RHC)-flight-schools who could massively reduce their operating costs whilst offering modern machines.
As pointed out, the downsides to Robinson ownership are the known Lifed components, the known timed components and the unknown failures (rotor-blades?) and very expensive AD's.
AFAIK, there have not been any such calls on the wallet for Guimbal owners.
Everything I have read, suggests a well-engineered product designed for a long and reliable working life.
As such, it's residual will always be higher than a Robinson....
(Something that flight-schools seem to be latching on to! ) Calculate the calendar-life or the hours flown....If you're buying a 10 year old Machine, your Robbo is a hangar-queen in 2 years time...OK she's still worth "core" value for rebuilding........meanwhile, the Cabri owner is still flying AND has all those GPH fuel savings in the bank as well.
Ever heard the expression "penny-wise, pound foolish."?
Given the low interest-rates at the moment, It would make excellent economic sense to borrow the extra to buy a Cabri and start saving from the first turn of the key.
I haven't even started on it's inherently safer, more robust, more forgiving design, yet.
No vested interest here, just an enthusiastic observer who made my little bit of cash the hard way and make every penny count.
Oh, I've never flown in either and I'm highly unlikely to trust my life to a Robinson Aviator whom I don't know to be a true "sky-God"... In other words, "Thanks, but no thanks"...yea, I'm a risk-averse wuss and don't want a violent premature demise even at my age.
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R22 and Cabri purchase price
GS -Alpha
Please enlighten us all as to how you came up with the Cabri costing £100k more than an R22.
I couldn't make it anywhere near that.
Chalmondleigh's figures look right to me.
Please be aware that the illustration he gave specified "ex works" prices. So that's ex works near Marseilles for the Cabri and spend a few hours flying it the 500 nm back to, say, Lydd or ex works California for the R22. Looking at Chalmondleighs figure for the R22 it must have included the disassembly and crating up for air freight as per R22 price list on Robinson's website today.
Hiring a R22 for £210 inclusive of fuel and VAT sounds a very good deal but does that include an Instructor which is what Matteymoo2 was enquiring about?
Please enlighten us all as to how you came up with the Cabri costing £100k more than an R22.
I couldn't make it anywhere near that.
Chalmondleigh's figures look right to me.
Please be aware that the illustration he gave specified "ex works" prices. So that's ex works near Marseilles for the Cabri and spend a few hours flying it the 500 nm back to, say, Lydd or ex works California for the R22. Looking at Chalmondleighs figure for the R22 it must have included the disassembly and crating up for air freight as per R22 price list on Robinson's website today.
Hiring a R22 for £210 inclusive of fuel and VAT sounds a very good deal but does that include an Instructor which is what Matteymoo2 was enquiring about?
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Hey Cockney Steve,
My last flight ever in an R22 occurred in 2002, up to that time I enjoyed flying the R22, but unknown to me the R22 previous pilot a young FI had allowed a massif over-speed during an auto, it only became apparent upon getting airborne and climbing out of EGNH , I had no ability to turn left, it would only go right in notchy degree's, at that time I weighed about 220 lbs it took all my strength to stop the thing flinging itself all over the ground I landed on just east of the tower, I have never flown in a Robinson Helicopter since.
But I would like to fly in the French Cabri it seems to have nothing but good reports, and seems by all accounts to be built well and as you stated it seems to have long term abilities.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
My last flight ever in an R22 occurred in 2002, up to that time I enjoyed flying the R22, but unknown to me the R22 previous pilot a young FI had allowed a massif over-speed during an auto, it only became apparent upon getting airborne and climbing out of EGNH , I had no ability to turn left, it would only go right in notchy degree's, at that time I weighed about 220 lbs it took all my strength to stop the thing flinging itself all over the ground I landed on just east of the tower, I have never flown in a Robinson Helicopter since.
But I would like to fly in the French Cabri it seems to have nothing but good reports, and seems by all accounts to be built well and as you stated it seems to have long term abilities.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
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I think that the Cabri receives a lot of votes of confidence (can you say that in English) but still has to prove that it really is as reliable and as cost effective (in the long run ) as it is said to be.
For the Cabri G2 Mk. II I'm asking Bruno for a more sophisticated engine then that antiquated and carburated Lycoming, a throttle you can actually hold on to with your entire hand, a less aggressive governor and maybe a little bit more of ergonomic design for people being taller than 6 ft. (I'm having problems to hold that stick the way I'm used to).
Untill then I'm trying to find spare parts for my beloved Hughes269 but thats another thread I guess.
For the Cabri G2 Mk. II I'm asking Bruno for a more sophisticated engine then that antiquated and carburated Lycoming, a throttle you can actually hold on to with your entire hand, a less aggressive governor and maybe a little bit more of ergonomic design for people being taller than 6 ft. (I'm having problems to hold that stick the way I'm used to).
Untill then I'm trying to find spare parts for my beloved Hughes269 but thats another thread I guess.
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For those questioning where I get £100k from, the approximate cost of a brand new R22, inclusive of VAT is 215k. The approximate cost of a new G2 is £315k by today's exchange rates. The cost of a newly overhauled R22 is obviously cheaper still.
Exceed the limitations in any aircraft and you will encounter problems. That's why they have limitations. I completely agree that the R22 must be respected a little more the most in order to remain within it's operating limitations. I also totally accept the point about unknown additional costs that can crop up, and indeed historically do crop up with Robinson products. But no one ca guarantee the same won't become true of the G2 with time, nor indeed that all of these problems are not already ironed out in the R22.
I hire an R22 for £275 with an instructor, or £210 SFH (inclusive of VAT). If a G2 costs £360 with an instructor, why is that? Presumably it is to cover the increased cost? Or are G2 schools just fleecing their customers?
HeliHenri, I read your link with interest. The G2 is still a relatively new helicopter and time will tell whether it will need some expensive mandatory alterations or not. If it is still going strong when I decide I need to buy a helicopter in a few years, I'll certainly give it some serious thought.
With the current price differential, I think it is better to go with the devil you know than the devil you don't, but anyone is entitled to disagree with me.
Exceed the limitations in any aircraft and you will encounter problems. That's why they have limitations. I completely agree that the R22 must be respected a little more the most in order to remain within it's operating limitations. I also totally accept the point about unknown additional costs that can crop up, and indeed historically do crop up with Robinson products. But no one ca guarantee the same won't become true of the G2 with time, nor indeed that all of these problems are not already ironed out in the R22.
I hire an R22 for £275 with an instructor, or £210 SFH (inclusive of VAT). If a G2 costs £360 with an instructor, why is that? Presumably it is to cover the increased cost? Or are G2 schools just fleecing their customers?
HeliHenri, I read your link with interest. The G2 is still a relatively new helicopter and time will tell whether it will need some expensive mandatory alterations or not. If it is still going strong when I decide I need to buy a helicopter in a few years, I'll certainly give it some serious thought.
With the current price differential, I think it is better to go with the devil you know than the devil you don't, but anyone is entitled to disagree with me.
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The Cabri was certified in 2007, the R22 in 1979.
The Cabri has been in use for the 7 years since, without any great concerns. By the time the R22 had been in use for 7 years, there had been numerous fatalities and the FAA had seriously considered pulling the type certificate.
There had been revised MR blades, now up to revision 6(?) a specific training course which remains a requirement today in the US in certain circumstances.
The Cabri has had some revisions. Balance weights to reduce vibration and increase comfort. Trim tabs on the blades to improve comfort. Adjustable pedals to improve comfort.
Quite different.
If you enjoy driving a Mk 1 Escort on a daily basis, please do, but if you choose one over a new Fiesta because you can pick one up for a lower price, don't pretend you've made the best purchase in any more than a very narrow perspective.
The Cabri has been in use for the 7 years since, without any great concerns. By the time the R22 had been in use for 7 years, there had been numerous fatalities and the FAA had seriously considered pulling the type certificate.
There had been revised MR blades, now up to revision 6(?) a specific training course which remains a requirement today in the US in certain circumstances.
The Cabri has had some revisions. Balance weights to reduce vibration and increase comfort. Trim tabs on the blades to improve comfort. Adjustable pedals to improve comfort.
Quite different.
If you enjoy driving a Mk 1 Escort on a daily basis, please do, but if you choose one over a new Fiesta because you can pick one up for a lower price, don't pretend you've made the best purchase in any more than a very narrow perspective.
I think there is an element of rose tints here.....
The G2 is a wonderful machine and much more forgiving to the average PPL. Reliability wise it needs to be kept in a hangar otherwise it suffers electrical gremlins as befell the initial machine at Leicester, and even when in a hangar once it has a few hours under its belt you'll likely fly with something showing as failed - EGT sensor, etc. The DI is utter junk and is £360 p/h with instructor and VAT common now a few more machines are out there?
The G2 is a wonderful machine and much more forgiving to the average PPL. Reliability wise it needs to be kept in a hangar otherwise it suffers electrical gremlins as befell the initial machine at Leicester, and even when in a hangar once it has a few hours under its belt you'll likely fly with something showing as failed - EGT sensor, etc. The DI is utter junk and is £360 p/h with instructor and VAT common now a few more machines are out there?
G2 - Rocks
Ever heard the expression "penny-wise, pound foolish."?
I haven't even started on it's inherently safer, more robust, more forgiving design, yet.
cockney steve
I haven't even started on it's inherently safer, more robust, more forgiving design, yet.
cockney steve
no truer words spoken......especially on the Crapinson Flimsicopter
in fact it's not cheaper, you just get less quality, less engineering, less sturdy, less strength, less crashworthy, less Safety & less & less & less & less 
their called a Widow Maker for good reason 
Happy Happy Langings
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R22 hire
hi there GSA,
Please can you share the name the company which you hire your R22 from.
My work takes me around most of the UK and I can usually manage to fit in half a days flying, weather permitting.
PP
Please can you share the name the company which you hire your R22 from.
My work takes me around most of the UK and I can usually manage to fit in half a days flying, weather permitting.
PP
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n fact it's not cheaper, you just get less quality, less engineering, less sturdy, less strength, less crashworthy, less Safety & less & less & less & less
I think what you really mean, is you get a lot poorer value for your money, which is what I've been saying all along.
The Lada was a crude, cheap, scabby car, but you could buy a brand new one for the price of a secondhand Ford Escrt....the Ford was still the better value for money, a nicer, safer, better-handling, more economical ride.....Notice any similarities?
You can roll a turd in glitter, it's still a shiny turd and you'll still struggle to find the clean end.
Interesting views but the FAA don't agree
From the AAIB annual report of yesterday:-
Robinson R22 Beta Ely, Cambridgeshire 6 January 2012 Accident
AAIB Bulletin: 2/2013
FACTOR: N/A
Synopsis
The Robinson R22 helicopter was flying from Manston to Fenland. Near Ely, witnesses on the
ground saw it pitch and roll rapidly, the two main rotor blades separated from the rotor head and the
aircraft fell to the ground. The pilot was fatally injured.
SAFETY RECOMMENDATION – 2012-039
The Federal Aviation Administration should amend the requirements in Federal Aviation Regulation
Part 27 to reduce the risk of ‘loss of main rotor control’ accidents in future light helicopter designs.
Response
The FAA responds: We appreciate the analysis the AAIB performed and also for bringing this issue
to our attention. The report, AAIB Bulletin: 2/2013, was very thorough and clearly makes the case
that low inertia rotor systems provide significant challenges to low-time rotorcraft pilots.
Unfortunately, this is a matter of physics that our certification regulations cannot adequately address.
While we agree with the AAIB that helicopters with low inertia rotor systems have unique control and
handling challenges, we do not believe that the certification rules of FAR Part 27 are the best means
of addressing these challenges. Because these challenges are primarily operational in nature, we
continue to believe that pilot training and awareness of the physics of low inertia rotor systems are
the best means to ensure safe operation of this type of rotorcraft.
The Robinson Model R22 and R44 helicopters are the two most prolific examples of rotorcraft with
low inertia rotor systems. FAA Special Federal Aviation Regulation (SFAR) No. 73- Robinson
R22/R44 Special Training and Experience Requirements was written in response to the unique
challenges of these specific rotorcraft. We still consider SFAR 73 as the best means of addressing
these challenges. SFAR 73 could be expanded to other low inertia rotor rotorcraft if necessary
Robinson R22 Beta Ely, Cambridgeshire 6 January 2012 Accident
AAIB Bulletin: 2/2013
FACTOR: N/A
Synopsis
The Robinson R22 helicopter was flying from Manston to Fenland. Near Ely, witnesses on the
ground saw it pitch and roll rapidly, the two main rotor blades separated from the rotor head and the
aircraft fell to the ground. The pilot was fatally injured.
SAFETY RECOMMENDATION – 2012-039
The Federal Aviation Administration should amend the requirements in Federal Aviation Regulation
Part 27 to reduce the risk of ‘loss of main rotor control’ accidents in future light helicopter designs.
Response
The FAA responds: We appreciate the analysis the AAIB performed and also for bringing this issue
to our attention. The report, AAIB Bulletin: 2/2013, was very thorough and clearly makes the case
that low inertia rotor systems provide significant challenges to low-time rotorcraft pilots.
Unfortunately, this is a matter of physics that our certification regulations cannot adequately address.
While we agree with the AAIB that helicopters with low inertia rotor systems have unique control and
handling challenges, we do not believe that the certification rules of FAR Part 27 are the best means
of addressing these challenges. Because these challenges are primarily operational in nature, we
continue to believe that pilot training and awareness of the physics of low inertia rotor systems are
the best means to ensure safe operation of this type of rotorcraft.
The Robinson Model R22 and R44 helicopters are the two most prolific examples of rotorcraft with
low inertia rotor systems. FAA Special Federal Aviation Regulation (SFAR) No. 73- Robinson
R22/R44 Special Training and Experience Requirements was written in response to the unique
challenges of these specific rotorcraft. We still consider SFAR 73 as the best means of addressing
these challenges. SFAR 73 could be expanded to other low inertia rotor rotorcraft if necessary