Guimbal Cabri G2
It is laughable that in 2014 we cant get a FI engine to start at a turn of a key !!!
"and it will not rely on the battery when airborne?",
"naa, do it pnematically, no electrics please",
"jeeez, the ignition advance must be mechanical, if at all necessary"
"does the oil pressure gauge have to be an eletric instument?"
"we'd want the attitude indicator to be suction powered"
....
Now if your BMW or any car had the dramas that we put up with in aviation
: Head of IT of one of my customers drives a 320i, nicely upgrading the model every 4-5 years. He told me the story when once the engine simply died while passing, in fast lane, as if switching off the ignition. Wont start up anymore. He had it carried to the BMW mech. "Well known effect, we can fix that, we'll dump your bricked EFI controller and you get a fresh one, costs just 1500 bucks".
University collague of mine (eletronics, redundancy, automotive bus systems) claimed manufacturers see electronification mostly as cost saving feature. They do not like to over engineer their stuff to make it "russian style" bullet prove.
And IIRC the german triple-A (ADAC) once reported, that the majority of car breakdown service calls (ignoring running out of fuel
) nowadays, are electronics related.So both things seem to hint that there HAD BEEN good reasons to stay clear of computerized systems for vital function that are not engineered with military reserves built in.
But personally I'm happy to see FADECs pop up everywhere. Honeywell has shown how far TBOs can be expanded on an individual case by case basis if something monitors engine data in real time á la HUMS. I'd say counting cycles and hours will be a thing of the past, as will hard TOT limits. The engine monitoring computer will soon output "HSI in 12:51 h from now", and the gentle pilots will be rewarded by longer TBOs.
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The automotive world had injection foisted upon it by increasingly stringent emissions requirements.
During my mechanicing days, I rapidly learned that the Bosch injection system could produce low fuel consumption and a perfect burn, as evidenced by the pale chocolate-coloured exhaust and spark-plug deposits.....However, It did not give the ultimate power...for that, you slapped on some Weber 40 DCOE's.....thirsty but delivered extra horses.
Presumably an aircraft system can be programmed differently (Chipped) to sacrifice economy for outright power, when needed.
A carb, in it's purest formis very robust, simple and efficient....I think the thousands of Rotax that have dilited the lycosaurus market monopoly, are carburetted by Bing...a simple slide and needle setup, somewhat less advanced than the constant-vacuum SU or it's ripoff Kei Hin counterpart. The SU was at it's zenith when the needle was rigidly mounted to stay concentric within the jet...the idiotic idea to spring-bias the needle so it destroyed it's own and the jet's metering accuracy,killed the product
having said that, a new biased needle and matching jet can be had for under £30, to restore "as new" performance
Single-point injection still carries a risk of icing....it's just moved "downwind" from the injector in the induction tract.......
As soon as you go on to multi-point injection, you're into an injector per cylinder and a complex and expensive box of electronics...or an equally complex and expensive mechanical injection-pump.
ISTR reading a figure of ~£500 for a full Rotax carb overhaul.....It made my eyes water,anyway!...For motorcycle use, one would expect to pay less than £300 for a complete brand-new carb//// Let's see....float-needle and seat....choke-tubeand throttle-slide.....main jet and needle....Uh,, OK the return spring to push the slide back down (never seen a worn to breaking one in over 50 years! )....that's it, other than a few caskets/o-rings....Oh, go on then, add a pilot fuel or air-needle, that must be all of £3 worth
You *can* get a carburetted car to ice-up in the carb. but back in the seventies, a simple flap-valve was devised by the maligned BMC a bimetal strip moved the flap between a hot-air pickup around the exhaust manifold and a fresh air pickup externally....the induced air caused the strip to bend, thus automatically altering the hot-cold balance.....AFTER this, it was filtered BEFORE it went to the carb or engine....Why do Lycosaurus still feed unfiltered hot air to an engine?
I'd agree with Mr Guimbal on this one...carb is simpler, cheaper and easier to maintainand gives the best bang for the buck .
During my mechanicing days, I rapidly learned that the Bosch injection system could produce low fuel consumption and a perfect burn, as evidenced by the pale chocolate-coloured exhaust and spark-plug deposits.....However, It did not give the ultimate power...for that, you slapped on some Weber 40 DCOE's.....thirsty but delivered extra horses.
Presumably an aircraft system can be programmed differently (Chipped) to sacrifice economy for outright power, when needed.
A carb, in it's purest formis very robust, simple and efficient....I think the thousands of Rotax that have dilited the lycosaurus market monopoly, are carburetted by Bing...a simple slide and needle setup, somewhat less advanced than the constant-vacuum SU or it's ripoff Kei Hin counterpart. The SU was at it's zenith when the needle was rigidly mounted to stay concentric within the jet...the idiotic idea to spring-bias the needle so it destroyed it's own and the jet's metering accuracy,killed the product
having said that, a new biased needle and matching jet can be had for under £30, to restore "as new" performance
Single-point injection still carries a risk of icing....it's just moved "downwind" from the injector in the induction tract.......
As soon as you go on to multi-point injection, you're into an injector per cylinder and a complex and expensive box of electronics...or an equally complex and expensive mechanical injection-pump.
ISTR reading a figure of ~£500 for a full Rotax carb overhaul.....It made my eyes water,anyway!...For motorcycle use, one would expect to pay less than £300 for a complete brand-new carb//// Let's see....float-needle and seat....choke-tubeand throttle-slide.....main jet and needle....Uh,, OK the return spring to push the slide back down (never seen a worn to breaking one in over 50 years! )....that's it, other than a few caskets/o-rings....Oh, go on then, add a pilot fuel or air-needle, that must be all of £3 worth
You *can* get a carburetted car to ice-up in the carb. but back in the seventies, a simple flap-valve was devised by the maligned BMC a bimetal strip moved the flap between a hot-air pickup around the exhaust manifold and a fresh air pickup externally....the induced air caused the strip to bend, thus automatically altering the hot-cold balance.....AFTER this, it was filtered BEFORE it went to the carb or engine....Why do Lycosaurus still feed unfiltered hot air to an engine?
I'd agree with Mr Guimbal on this one...carb is simpler, cheaper and easier to maintainand gives the best bang for the buck .
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@ Spunk
No it should not be the "seventh" Cabri for heli Aviation.
As far as I know it was not a too big deal. It will be repaired.
A few tie-wraps, some srews and abit of paint should do the job.
So don´t write that helicopter off too soon
No it should not be the "seventh" Cabri for heli Aviation.
As far as I know it was not a too big deal. It will be repaired.
A few tie-wraps, some srews and abit of paint should do the job
.So don´t write that helicopter off too soon
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@Hughes500
I totally agree.
As far as turning the key I love to tell my students that Hughes came up with the idea of a starter button back in the 50's and that my car sales person was trying to convince that starting the car by simply pushing a button was something new ;-)
We've never had any problems with firing up one of our fuel injectors (neither on the 300 C nor on the Raven II, neither at -10°C nor at +30°C). However I see our competitors flooding their carb equipped ones every now and then, specially in winter time.
Maybe the Diesel modified and installed in several airplanes by a company called "Thielert" would have been a good alternate for the Guimbal. (I think it's a modified CDI 190 taken from the Mercedes A Class)
I totally agree.
As far as turning the key I love to tell my students that Hughes came up with the idea of a starter button back in the 50's and that my car sales person was trying to convince that starting the car by simply pushing a button was something new ;-)
We've never had any problems with firing up one of our fuel injectors (neither on the 300 C nor on the Raven II, neither at -10°C nor at +30°C). However I see our competitors flooding their carb equipped ones every now and then, specially in winter time.
Maybe the Diesel modified and installed in several airplanes by a company called "Thielert" would have been a good alternate for the Guimbal. (I think it's a modified CDI 190 taken from the Mercedes A Class)
Maybe the Diesel modified and installed in several airplanes by a company called "Thielert" would have been a good alternate for the Guimbal. (I think it's a modified CDI 190 taken from the Mercedes A Class)
As usual, when you want something done properly you have to do it yourself. So they foudned AustroEngine and their DA42NG now comes with AustroEngine's AE300 diesels.
That very engine the AE300 delivers 170 hp, EASA & FAA cert. in 2009, most probably way too late for Bruno to consider as powerplant. Personally I have no idea wheter it is light enough for helicopter applications.
CS:
So I thought too, until Spunk pointed me to the description of the "Lycomming O360 FI System" (by Precision Airmotive) http://www.precisionairmotive.com/Pu...s/15-812_b.pdf
Very interesting reading:
=> absolutely no box of electronics
Hard to beat, regarding icing resiliance and simplicity of design, I'd say.
As soon as you go on to multi-point injection, you're into an injector per cylinder and a complex and expensive box of electronics...or an equally complex and expensive mechanical injection-pump.
Very interesting reading:
- single point metering controlled by diaphragms and what not
- mulit injector nozzel design, one per cylinder but in intake tube
=> absolutely no box of electronics
Hard to beat, regarding icing resiliance and simplicity of design, I'd say.
Last edited by Reely340; 14th Feb 2014 at 17:53.
AustroEngine AE300 is 185kg (according to their website).
A 68kg difference. Or the weight of a passenger.
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The Vilnius Gediminas Technical University (VGTU) in Lithuania has just received two Cabri G2.
They will be used for CPL and Lithuanian Air Force training.
http://http://www.vgtu.lt/en/news/vg...icopter-pilots
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The Vilnius Gediminas Technical University (VGTU) in Lithuania has just received two Cabri G2.
They will be used for CPL and Lithuanian Air Force training.
http://http://www.vgtu.lt/en/news/vg...icopter-pilots
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Hey HH
Whenever I see a picture of this helicopter I cannot but say : What a good shape and modern flow it seems to have, it seems almost ready to fly out of the picture at me.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Dying to have a go in one! we have a spel cheaker but no Icons why!
Whenever I see a picture of this helicopter I cannot but say : What a good shape and modern flow it seems to have, it seems almost ready to fly out of the picture at me.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Dying to have a go in one! we have a spel cheaker but no Icons why!
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Starting a FI engine
I come from the world of fixed wing planes. As I almost only fly FI aircraft I do know that there are some that are really hard to start - especially when hot.
The Problem is not a cold start but hot starts after 10-15min. Especially when it is hot and in a congested engine bay you will have Problems with vapour bubbles that makes starting the engine very difficult.
Some fuel injected engines start very easily (the big Lycoming TIO540 in the Mooney TLS for example), others are hard to start - especially the IO360 used in the new C172S models is a beast when it comes to starting it hot.
When I started flying the G2 I did not like the idea of the carburated engine, however the automatic carburator heat works perfectly and is dependable in all weather conditions.
Marcus
The Problem is not a cold start but hot starts after 10-15min. Especially when it is hot and in a congested engine bay you will have Problems with vapour bubbles that makes starting the engine very difficult.
Some fuel injected engines start very easily (the big Lycoming TIO540 in the Mooney TLS for example), others are hard to start - especially the IO360 used in the new C172S models is a beast when it comes to starting it hot.
When I started flying the G2 I did not like the idea of the carburated engine, however the automatic carburator heat works perfectly and is dependable in all weather conditions.
Marcus
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And another one for the UK...
Helicentre Aviation Places Order for Fifth Cabri G2 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
Helicentre Aviation Places Order for Fifth Cabri G2 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
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Not a lot of news from the HAI in the forum so I have to do something !
"Yesterday was a banner day for French helicopter manufacturer Guimbal as it marked its entry to the U.S. helicopter market, with the delivery of its first Cabri G2 light single to Newberg, Ore.-based operator and training provider Precision Helicopters."
"Precision expects delivery of another G2 in June, with more to follow next year."
"Here at the show, Guimbal notched its second U.S. customer, Heritage Helicopter Services, which expects its first delivery in March 2015. According to chief pilot Curtis Spears, the Beaumont, Texas-based company will order up to six G2s, eventually changing over its fleet entirely to the French helicopter."
"Guimbal told AIN that his company has delivered 64 approximately $400,000 G2s to 32 operators worldwide and currently has a backlog of more than 100 rotorcraft. As the orders increase, he is striving to reduce order lead time to less than a year."
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Guimbal Makes U.S., Heli-Expo Debut | Aviation International News
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Not a lot of news from the HAI in the forum so I have to do something !
"Yesterday was a banner day for French helicopter manufacturer Guimbal as it marked its entry to the U.S. helicopter market, with the delivery of its first Cabri G2 light single to Newberg, Ore.-based operator and training provider Precision Helicopters."
"Precision expects delivery of another G2 in June, with more to follow next year."
"Here at the show, Guimbal notched its second U.S. customer, Heritage Helicopter Services, which expects its first delivery in March 2015. According to chief pilot Curtis Spears, the Beaumont, Texas-based company will order up to six G2s, eventually changing over its fleet entirely to the French helicopter."
"Guimbal told AIN that his company has delivered 64 approximately $400,000 G2s to 32 operators worldwide and currently has a backlog of more than 100 rotorcraft. As the orders increase, he is striving to reduce order lead time to less than a year."
.
Guimbal Makes U.S., Heli-Expo Debut | Aviation International News
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Last edited by HeliHenri; 12th Jul 2015 at 17:11.
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first customer in South Africa :
Starlite’s International Aviation Training Academy was one of the launch customers who were welcomed by the Guimbal family, having purchased two of their latest Cabri G2 helicopters, with another six on order.
Starlite and Guimbal, more deals on the cards | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry
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first customer in South Africa :
Starlite’s International Aviation Training Academy was one of the launch customers who were welcomed by the Guimbal family, having purchased two of their latest Cabri G2 helicopters, with another six on order.
Starlite and Guimbal, more deals on the cards | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry
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First in North America
Vertical Magazine Shot
People were super excited that this is finally coming to the US to mix up the training industry. It got some serious attention. A lot of people were saying this was their favorite booth at Heli-Expo.
Precisions Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Preci...29699817089197
www.flyprecision.com
People were super excited that this is finally coming to the US to mix up the training industry. It got some serious attention. A lot of people were saying this was their favorite booth at Heli-Expo.
Precisions Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Preci...29699817089197
www.flyprecision.com
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Saturday 8th March I saw G-ETWO in place at EBG Helicopters, Redhill. Flown back from the factory in 6 hrs with 1 fuel stop and landed with an hour's fuel remaining; 6000ft over the alps, 2-up with light luggage. Very impressive.
I understand CAA paperwork is expected to be completed this week, and 2x instructors are type-rated.
I understand CAA paperwork is expected to be completed this week, and 2x instructors are type-rated.
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Hello Jeremy,
That's a good news
because when it was French registered with a commercial operator, it was sleeping in a hangar most of the times 
.
There was a Luxemburg registered Cabri flying around in the UK on Sunday. Seemed to be a bit off-patch
That's a good news
because when it was French registered with a commercial operator, it was sleeping in a hangar most of the times .