So where are all the jobs then?
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Fascinating thread! I'm 38, chartered accountant, 100 hrs on microlights, and seriously thinking of chucking life savings (and then some) at the modular lottery - or maybe not after reading this. I just fell I wish I'd gone for it earlier, and if I don't have an effing good crack at it now it will def be too late I'll regret it the rest of my life.
Realistically I'll be 40 by the time I get to fATPL. Given Vito's and other experiences here, am I completely deluded that there's but the slimmest chance of landing a decently paid aviation job at that age? I have the wife/kids/mortgage constraint and know I am gambling with their future to some extent.
I've just started doing my research in the last week, but seems if there are that many good quality, more experienced candidates out there really struggling then maybe I've swallowed the sales pitch from OAT, Bristol and the like. If there's some more light/end/tunnel stories for the older aspirant, I'd be truly grateful to hear them to balance some of this doom and gloom!
Realistically I'll be 40 by the time I get to fATPL. Given Vito's and other experiences here, am I completely deluded that there's but the slimmest chance of landing a decently paid aviation job at that age? I have the wife/kids/mortgage constraint and know I am gambling with their future to some extent.
I've just started doing my research in the last week, but seems if there are that many good quality, more experienced candidates out there really struggling then maybe I've swallowed the sales pitch from OAT, Bristol and the like. If there's some more light/end/tunnel stories for the older aspirant, I'd be truly grateful to hear them to balance some of this doom and gloom!
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The right stuff
David
My short story: started at age 34 with PPL and finished with 36 CPL,Multi,IR, fATPL. Left my well paved engineering careerbehind and was hired in 2001 as an F/O on the E145 shortly before 9/11. Was lucky enough to stay employed during the fallout years of 9/11. After a short time on the AVRO RJ100, I am now flying as SF/O on the Airbus with easyJet. It was definitely the best decision to go for that flying job. Age can be an issue but I am sure if you have the right stuff and attitude, you will find that satisfying flying job sooner or later.
Good luck
My short story: started at age 34 with PPL and finished with 36 CPL,Multi,IR, fATPL. Left my well paved engineering careerbehind and was hired in 2001 as an F/O on the E145 shortly before 9/11. Was lucky enough to stay employed during the fallout years of 9/11. After a short time on the AVRO RJ100, I am now flying as SF/O on the Airbus with easyJet. It was definitely the best decision to go for that flying job. Age can be an issue but I am sure if you have the right stuff and attitude, you will find that satisfying flying job sooner or later.
Good luck
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David,
I'd be more concerned about where the industry will be in 2 years' time.
No one knows. It's crapshoot, really.
If it's like it is now and you're willing to buy your way in, you got a good chance.
If the industry craps out again, there's a good chance you'll get nothing.
It's a roll of the dice.
I'd be more concerned about where the industry will be in 2 years' time.
No one knows. It's crapshoot, really.
If it's like it is now and you're willing to buy your way in, you got a good chance.
If the industry craps out again, there's a good chance you'll get nothing.
It's a roll of the dice.
Last edited by PosClimb; 2nd Aug 2007 at 02:32.
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Mr Horgy,
Sorry for the late reply but I'm referring back to your post of 26th July in this rather emotional thread.
As you are based in Leeds... discussed going modular and state that you're part way through your ME training, could I put 2 and 2 together and assume that you're training at Multiflight?
If you are, how would you rate them? I've done a search and visited them etc. but it would be good to hear from a current student. If you're training somewhere else, oh well, thanks anyway!
Sorry for the late reply but I'm referring back to your post of 26th July in this rather emotional thread.
As you are based in Leeds... discussed going modular and state that you're part way through your ME training, could I put 2 and 2 together and assume that you're training at Multiflight?
If you are, how would you rate them? I've done a search and visited them etc. but it would be good to hear from a current student. If you're training somewhere else, oh well, thanks anyway!
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L A,
No sorry, i'm actually at Stapleford Flight Centre, a training organisation i can thoroughly recommend.
I did about 10 hours of PPL at Multiflight though while I was at university, and it seemed fairly well run. Maybe a touch on the business side of things, but I imagine if you were a 'known quantity' (unlike me trying to squeeze stuff in here and there) you might fare better. Staff seem friendly.
Make sure you budget for landing fees at Leeds though, they can get quite pricey. Also, as they now only work with one runway it got a little congested at times for VFR being held while Mr Boeing flew in. At the end of the day though a few minutes here and there didn't bother me as i'd have to hour build anyway.
No sorry, i'm actually at Stapleford Flight Centre, a training organisation i can thoroughly recommend.
I did about 10 hours of PPL at Multiflight though while I was at university, and it seemed fairly well run. Maybe a touch on the business side of things, but I imagine if you were a 'known quantity' (unlike me trying to squeeze stuff in here and there) you might fare better. Staff seem friendly.
Make sure you budget for landing fees at Leeds though, they can get quite pricey. Also, as they now only work with one runway it got a little congested at times for VFR being held while Mr Boeing flew in. At the end of the day though a few minutes here and there didn't bother me as i'd have to hour build anyway.
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This is for GIGGO 2.
I have a post from 24th July so I will not repeat what I said other than I am proud of what I have achived and will always be pleased with what I have. I must point out that with loss of earnings I have spent over £60, 000. so keep this in mind.
During my years looking for employment I made a number of good contaccts who I would be able to have an honest conversation with. A good number of them (training captains HR managers) pointed out tht there was a definate line at 40 years old in relation to training. Statisticaly it would take a person a week longer to train, this would cost them when they could just take on a younger person.
I did point out that I was older married with a family and would stay with whoever employed me as I would not wish to keep chasing round the country for jobs and upsetting my stable family. Should they take on a younger person they may only stay for a couple of years and then move on to larger aircraft, this would mean more training. I would have saved this continous future expense by progressing within (I must point out that I was focused on turboprops). A good an honest argument. their response was that is a future budget, they were concerned about todays.
I too would even in my position of not continuing would have hated myself for not trying.
DO IT don't lie on your death bed thinking I wish I had tried However, FI is a must!
I have a post from 24th July so I will not repeat what I said other than I am proud of what I have achived and will always be pleased with what I have. I must point out that with loss of earnings I have spent over £60, 000. so keep this in mind.
During my years looking for employment I made a number of good contaccts who I would be able to have an honest conversation with. A good number of them (training captains HR managers) pointed out tht there was a definate line at 40 years old in relation to training. Statisticaly it would take a person a week longer to train, this would cost them when they could just take on a younger person.
I did point out that I was older married with a family and would stay with whoever employed me as I would not wish to keep chasing round the country for jobs and upsetting my stable family. Should they take on a younger person they may only stay for a couple of years and then move on to larger aircraft, this would mean more training. I would have saved this continous future expense by progressing within (I must point out that I was focused on turboprops). A good an honest argument. their response was that is a future budget, they were concerned about todays.
I too would even in my position of not continuing would have hated myself for not trying.
DO IT don't lie on your death bed thinking I wish I had tried However, FI is a must!
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Its a doozie
Just my two cents worth for what its worth, probably will stir the pot up a bit, however why we embrace living in a democracy, free speech and all that jazz.
We do an aspirational job, we gain social kudos (one person reading this deny someone hasn't raised an eyebrow when you reply to the 'so what do you do?' question, pays well (eventually) and a host of other little ticks in the Pro's column. As a result a little bit of dreamy romanticism is attached to it.
Gone are the days where the great unwashed are selected by airlines, given a nice shiny little uniform and guaranteed a job after completing their in-house training scheme. For the reasons above, so many wish to follow in the footsteps of the Wright Bros. Now we plebs are expected to fund our own training up front, twas the days when a mere CPL/IR were enough, now an MCC is a definite and self sponsoring a type rating should at least be pondered (a debate for another thread me thinks).
As a result we need to be pragmatic, focused and driven more so than if everything was laid on a plate.
Certain things in aviation that piss me off that I've encountered:
The amount of people in the UK who turn up their nose with hearty disdain for those who did their initial training in the US. My response to that, its aviation, not an exclusive golf club, a 152 stalls at exactly at the same IAS over Florida as it does over somewhere ending in 'shire'. Wind your neck in!
Those who moan about their circumstances, yes we are all subject to bad luck, however the human brain tends to remember (especially if there is an apparent pattern) the hiccups over the successes. in the past 10 years especially with the advent of widespread use of the web there is no excuse for doing your homework as there is a host of sources of info. I got into this and to be honest its not presently ideal, however I knew this may be the case on day 1, so I ultimately am optimistic or I'd go mental.
I'm dismayed at how too many people further up the food chain pontificate, maybe because a lot of those in the position to be doing so on this site qualified around the worst time for aviation in modern times and had it considerably harder, guess what, its not so rough now, so don't hit us with 'you haven't lived', similar to pensioners who did national service and tell you how easy we young 'uns have it now.
I know of a former CTC cadet slagging off those who did self sponsored type ratings as abhorrent. The only difference being he was promised his job on day one providing no hiccups and did all his training with one provider. Tiresome to say the least and 'do as I say, not as I do'.
If you haven't served a spell at a FI you a) know nothing, b) you are a shortcut meister unwilling to serve an apprenticeship you filthy schwein. Different horses for different courses, Jesus wept. Some people are predisposed for flying a big jet, some don't, some get there because its expected, to wince at the thought of a 250 pilot getting the nod screams of sour grapes.
6k outlay to get 10k back, UK weather, 152 in a circuit its all about reaching antiquated thresholds that says nothing about your professionalism or aptitude or personality to work in an intense 2 person environment. It negates that some personalities make great instructors and some woeful. Personally, no thanks, I'd rather put my cash towards a TR. Does that make me evil, inherently lazy, conniving? To some members of PPRuNe, yes, worse than a 40 virgin seeking jihadi. That position taken by some maybe needs a pitch of salt and a big hug.
If you don't get all starry eyed talking about aviation and why you got into it you shouldn't be anywhere near a plane. Some people do it because when you do have your foot in the door it offers a decent living that suits them and their circumstances well. Some pilots are grafters, not naturally gifted, I even know some who still get air sick but do it because it beats an office full of menopausal women and politics bull****.
Pilots sharpening the knife for other pilots, perhaps the anonymity of the Internet (exceptions of the moderators who know exactly who everyone is). However, we are the worlds worst back seat drivers, critics and ****ting on those below us. I've done it, however recognised it early and made a conscious effort to change. How many of us will admit to being a passenger looking tentatively at a mate on short finals as the stall warning poops for the fist time, fear willing them to mention to inch the nose forward, squeeze in a little throttle to ease the decent, wishing they set the mixture to full rich and turned the landing lights on. Who hasn't moved a hand up to within a half inch of the column?
To be honest, its all about recognising yourself, what your motivations are, you own self discipline and taking the route that serves you best. If that is 0 to hero in 4 months, ATPL's in 4, TR in 2 and line training within the year then so be it.
Finally, there is no excuse for ignorance.
Cue the posts, littered with quotes of what I've written, pedantically cross examined. It's not about changing opinions, just respecting some others may see things differently.
We do an aspirational job, we gain social kudos (one person reading this deny someone hasn't raised an eyebrow when you reply to the 'so what do you do?' question, pays well (eventually) and a host of other little ticks in the Pro's column. As a result a little bit of dreamy romanticism is attached to it.
Gone are the days where the great unwashed are selected by airlines, given a nice shiny little uniform and guaranteed a job after completing their in-house training scheme. For the reasons above, so many wish to follow in the footsteps of the Wright Bros. Now we plebs are expected to fund our own training up front, twas the days when a mere CPL/IR were enough, now an MCC is a definite and self sponsoring a type rating should at least be pondered (a debate for another thread me thinks).
As a result we need to be pragmatic, focused and driven more so than if everything was laid on a plate.
Certain things in aviation that piss me off that I've encountered:
The amount of people in the UK who turn up their nose with hearty disdain for those who did their initial training in the US. My response to that, its aviation, not an exclusive golf club, a 152 stalls at exactly at the same IAS over Florida as it does over somewhere ending in 'shire'. Wind your neck in!
Those who moan about their circumstances, yes we are all subject to bad luck, however the human brain tends to remember (especially if there is an apparent pattern) the hiccups over the successes. in the past 10 years especially with the advent of widespread use of the web there is no excuse for doing your homework as there is a host of sources of info. I got into this and to be honest its not presently ideal, however I knew this may be the case on day 1, so I ultimately am optimistic or I'd go mental.
I'm dismayed at how too many people further up the food chain pontificate, maybe because a lot of those in the position to be doing so on this site qualified around the worst time for aviation in modern times and had it considerably harder, guess what, its not so rough now, so don't hit us with 'you haven't lived', similar to pensioners who did national service and tell you how easy we young 'uns have it now.
I know of a former CTC cadet slagging off those who did self sponsored type ratings as abhorrent. The only difference being he was promised his job on day one providing no hiccups and did all his training with one provider. Tiresome to say the least and 'do as I say, not as I do'.
If you haven't served a spell at a FI you a) know nothing, b) you are a shortcut meister unwilling to serve an apprenticeship you filthy schwein. Different horses for different courses, Jesus wept. Some people are predisposed for flying a big jet, some don't, some get there because its expected, to wince at the thought of a 250 pilot getting the nod screams of sour grapes.
6k outlay to get 10k back, UK weather, 152 in a circuit its all about reaching antiquated thresholds that says nothing about your professionalism or aptitude or personality to work in an intense 2 person environment. It negates that some personalities make great instructors and some woeful. Personally, no thanks, I'd rather put my cash towards a TR. Does that make me evil, inherently lazy, conniving? To some members of PPRuNe, yes, worse than a 40 virgin seeking jihadi. That position taken by some maybe needs a pitch of salt and a big hug.
If you don't get all starry eyed talking about aviation and why you got into it you shouldn't be anywhere near a plane. Some people do it because when you do have your foot in the door it offers a decent living that suits them and their circumstances well. Some pilots are grafters, not naturally gifted, I even know some who still get air sick but do it because it beats an office full of menopausal women and politics bull****.
Pilots sharpening the knife for other pilots, perhaps the anonymity of the Internet (exceptions of the moderators who know exactly who everyone is). However, we are the worlds worst back seat drivers, critics and ****ting on those below us. I've done it, however recognised it early and made a conscious effort to change. How many of us will admit to being a passenger looking tentatively at a mate on short finals as the stall warning poops for the fist time, fear willing them to mention to inch the nose forward, squeeze in a little throttle to ease the decent, wishing they set the mixture to full rich and turned the landing lights on. Who hasn't moved a hand up to within a half inch of the column?
To be honest, its all about recognising yourself, what your motivations are, you own self discipline and taking the route that serves you best. If that is 0 to hero in 4 months, ATPL's in 4, TR in 2 and line training within the year then so be it.
Finally, there is no excuse for ignorance.
Cue the posts, littered with quotes of what I've written, pedantically cross examined. It's not about changing opinions, just respecting some others may see things differently.
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Here goes some help
I hear you and I had felt your pain, I am just not as much of a whiner.
Send your CV to Ivan www.jtfa.cn/en
That ain't no shiny 747 but..... an option
Send your CV to Ivan www.jtfa.cn/en
That ain't no shiny 747 but..... an option
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Anyone else noticed the Transair advert that has been appearing recently on PPRUNE. "Wanted, FATPL holder to work in Transair shop..."
says it all really.
says it all really.
So Vito Corleone, have you dusted off your CV then?
Who knows what good contacts you'd make there, and what airline job they might lead to.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that....
Once, 2 shoe salesmen were parachuted onto a remote island with 50 pairs of shoes to sell to the locals. On landing, they immediately realised that none of the inhabitants wore shoes. Each of them made an urgent phone call back to the boss after the first day.
The first call went "Send an aircraft to get me off this hellish island - nobody wears shoes here!"
The other call went "This is brilliant, get me loads more shoes parachuted in ASAP - nobody wears shoes here!"
Who knows what good contacts you'd make there, and what airline job they might lead to.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that....
Once, 2 shoe salesmen were parachuted onto a remote island with 50 pairs of shoes to sell to the locals. On landing, they immediately realised that none of the inhabitants wore shoes. Each of them made an urgent phone call back to the boss after the first day.
The first call went "Send an aircraft to get me off this hellish island - nobody wears shoes here!"
The other call went "This is brilliant, get me loads more shoes parachuted in ASAP - nobody wears shoes here!"
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Vito, do yourself a favour and listen to some of the SUPERB advice that is being offered.
The truth sometimes isn't what you want to hear...but there are plenty who have had it tougher than you.
Perhaps you were one of those unfortunate kids at school who actually believed that "taking part" was the object of sport, or worse, you were always the last to get picked.
Why not prove something to yourself, and show some of the determination you MUST have possessed to pass your exams and flight tests?
Hell, I had about 20 jobs before I got my first full time flying job..ranging from digging post holes to delivering pamphlets.
You need to pull your head outta your arse buddy.
The truth sometimes isn't what you want to hear...but there are plenty who have had it tougher than you.
Perhaps you were one of those unfortunate kids at school who actually believed that "taking part" was the object of sport, or worse, you were always the last to get picked.
Why not prove something to yourself, and show some of the determination you MUST have possessed to pass your exams and flight tests?
Hell, I had about 20 jobs before I got my first full time flying job..ranging from digging post holes to delivering pamphlets.
You need to pull your head outta your arse buddy.
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Well I would gather with Vito's reply that he is totally ignorant, he hasn't even acknowledged any post at all over the last couple of pages or so, to me this is an admission that he is being a spoilt brat, heed the good advice given here Vito, I sometimes wonder why people bother to help someone who isn't prepared to help himself
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Who is going to the BALPA Employment Opportunities Conference at Heathrow in October?
The following airlines will be there:
Easyjet, BA, bmi baby, bmi regional, Virgin, flybe, Thomas Cook, thomsonfly, First Choice, XL airways, GB Airways, BA Cityflyer, Jet2, China Airlines, Emirates, Eastern Airways, Flightline, Air Contractors, Dragonair and Parc Aviation.
If your looking for a first job I reckon you want to be speaking to the likes of :
flybe, BA Cityflyer, bmi regional, Eastern Airways, Flightline, Air Contractors.
The following airlines will be there:
Easyjet, BA, bmi baby, bmi regional, Virgin, flybe, Thomas Cook, thomsonfly, First Choice, XL airways, GB Airways, BA Cityflyer, Jet2, China Airlines, Emirates, Eastern Airways, Flightline, Air Contractors, Dragonair and Parc Aviation.
If your looking for a first job I reckon you want to be speaking to the likes of :
flybe, BA Cityflyer, bmi regional, Eastern Airways, Flightline, Air Contractors.