Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Tim, I think there is a message coming through from the various posts here. ffrom your POV I suspect the trend is negative.
If you want the Vulcan project to succeed I should return to the real World and continue spreading the word! Far better than lurking and regurgitating the same rubbish on here.
My flying club is pooling together cash for the VTTS Club pledges.
Any other clubs giving it a go?
Originally Posted by madbadrob
The BBMF aircraft are not owned by the RAF or MOD but leased to them, so the costs there can be if need be passed back to their owners.
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Originally Posted by madbadrob
From the guys who fly it. From those who have had anything to do with the BBMF.
Rob
Rob
Originally Posted by possel
Well, the BBMF aircraft certainly used to be owned by the MOD (pre 91). When did they sell them, how much did the MOD get for the fleet and who are the owners now?
The only 'significant' BBMF aircraft to be sold was one of the Spit PR.XIX that was sold to fund the restoration of LF363 after the wheels up at Wittering following engine failure.
Last edited by GeeRam; 10th Aug 2006 at 14:08.
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Originally Posted by GeeRam
They still are on charge, always have been.
The only 'significant' BBMF aircraft to be sold was one of the Spit PR.XIX that was sold to fund the restoration of LF363 after the wheels up at Wittering following engine failure.
The only 'significant' BBMF aircraft to be sold was one of the Spit PR.XIX that was sold to fund the restoration of LF363 after the wheels up at Wittering following engine failure.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Originally Posted by sucksqueezeBANGstop
Only on these forums. Step out side of your door for a few minutes and you tend to find much more positivity. There is something stifling to the soul about forum lurking.
If you want the Vulcan project to succeed I should return to the real World and continue spreading the word! Far better than lurking and regurgitating the same rubbish on here.
My flying club is pooling together cash for the VTTS Club pledges.
Any other clubs giving it a go?
If you want the Vulcan project to succeed I should return to the real World and continue spreading the word! Far better than lurking and regurgitating the same rubbish on here.
My flying club is pooling together cash for the VTTS Club pledges.
Any other clubs giving it a go?
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Important Updates from TVOC
Gents (and any Ladies)
As per promised in previous posts, I wrote to Felicity Irwin with some questions and here are the unedited questions and responses :
Q - How much money is required to achieve the following milestones, and by when ?
A -
ROLL OUT £250,000
FIRST TEST FLIGHT £750,000
FULL TEST PROGRAMME £500,000 to DISPLAY FLIGHT June 17th and possibly 2007 air shows.
Annual Display season approx £1M
These are based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace of Cambridge projections.
Q - What contingency plans do the Trustees have if the trust fails to meet a deadline and or milestone due to lack of funding ?
A - The Trustees will be bitterly disappointed should the project have to cease and will do their utmost to ensure that XH558 is in the best condition possible to be displayed to the general public. This remains dependant on further funding and the Heritage Lottery Fund but should also be taken in context that XH558 is in better condition than she was when purchased by the Vulcan to the Sky Trust in February 2005.
Q -What is the current level of interest being shown by prospective commercial sponsors who are of sufficient magnitude to get the project on track again ?
A - Commercial sponsors have been sought throughout the project but it was always considered likely that until the majority of the restoration was completed and a sponsor could feel confident of the technical probability of flight, they may not commit. 'Roll Out' planned for August 31st is hoped to bring forth such a sponsor but sadly the Trustees have had to issue notices of termination to the workforce for the end of August in case such monies are not forthcoming by that date.
Q - How many full time or part time employees will remain with the trust after the lay offs which were recently announced, are effected, if they are effected.
A - There are likely to be 3 employees plus a possible number of volunteers available to VTST after August 31st should the termination be effected.
Q - What level of support and flexibility are current contractors showing other than extending normal credit terms etc ?
A - Support is good to achieve 'rollout' as everyone concerned has always known the nature of the project and its dependence on voluntary contribution.
Q - Why are the statutory accounts not yet filed and showing as overdue at Companies House ?
A - The accounts are filed at Companies House. They are on the website under financial update. They were delayed because the Trustees had to give lengthy consideration to the statement regarding the business as a 'going concern'. Which they ultimately felt unable to do.
Q - Do the trust still need £250,000 from today or has part been raised so far ?
A -No some has been raised but the Trust also has creditors so without going into minute details we have continued with the 'worst case'' scenario by stating that £250,000 is needed before the end of the month. If we introduce more figures we shall simply add to the confusion. Well, that is how we see it. I hope you agree.The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward.
Q - How much are current donations running at per month, on average ?
A - That varies according to whether or not a newsletter has just gone to the donor base or there has been media activity. £10,000 is slow, £50,000 is good. We have enjoyed both and almost nothing in some months over the five years.
As promised, I sent them a cheque today for £100 as a thank you for them taking the time to answer the questions.
As per promised in previous posts, I wrote to Felicity Irwin with some questions and here are the unedited questions and responses :
Q - How much money is required to achieve the following milestones, and by when ?
A -
ROLL OUT £250,000
FIRST TEST FLIGHT £750,000
FULL TEST PROGRAMME £500,000 to DISPLAY FLIGHT June 17th and possibly 2007 air shows.
Annual Display season approx £1M
These are based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace of Cambridge projections.
Q - What contingency plans do the Trustees have if the trust fails to meet a deadline and or milestone due to lack of funding ?
A - The Trustees will be bitterly disappointed should the project have to cease and will do their utmost to ensure that XH558 is in the best condition possible to be displayed to the general public. This remains dependant on further funding and the Heritage Lottery Fund but should also be taken in context that XH558 is in better condition than she was when purchased by the Vulcan to the Sky Trust in February 2005.
Q -What is the current level of interest being shown by prospective commercial sponsors who are of sufficient magnitude to get the project on track again ?
A - Commercial sponsors have been sought throughout the project but it was always considered likely that until the majority of the restoration was completed and a sponsor could feel confident of the technical probability of flight, they may not commit. 'Roll Out' planned for August 31st is hoped to bring forth such a sponsor but sadly the Trustees have had to issue notices of termination to the workforce for the end of August in case such monies are not forthcoming by that date.
Q - How many full time or part time employees will remain with the trust after the lay offs which were recently announced, are effected, if they are effected.
A - There are likely to be 3 employees plus a possible number of volunteers available to VTST after August 31st should the termination be effected.
Q - What level of support and flexibility are current contractors showing other than extending normal credit terms etc ?
A - Support is good to achieve 'rollout' as everyone concerned has always known the nature of the project and its dependence on voluntary contribution.
Q - Why are the statutory accounts not yet filed and showing as overdue at Companies House ?
A - The accounts are filed at Companies House. They are on the website under financial update. They were delayed because the Trustees had to give lengthy consideration to the statement regarding the business as a 'going concern'. Which they ultimately felt unable to do.
Q - Do the trust still need £250,000 from today or has part been raised so far ?
A -No some has been raised but the Trust also has creditors so without going into minute details we have continued with the 'worst case'' scenario by stating that £250,000 is needed before the end of the month. If we introduce more figures we shall simply add to the confusion. Well, that is how we see it. I hope you agree.The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward.
Q - How much are current donations running at per month, on average ?
A - That varies according to whether or not a newsletter has just gone to the donor base or there has been media activity. £10,000 is slow, £50,000 is good. We have enjoyed both and almost nothing in some months over the five years.
As promised, I sent them a cheque today for £100 as a thank you for them taking the time to answer the questions.
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‘Roll out £250,000, First test flight £750,000, Full test programme £500,000. Annual display season approx £1M. These are based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace projections’.
These numbers, without a breakdown of what is being spent on what, are meaningless and I’m very surprised that Marshall’s has not ‘officially’ contributed to this thread with some explanation.
As I understand it, HLF funds are public funds. Are the spenders of these funds not legally obliged to provide the public with detailed information on their financial activities. I’ve thought for some time that certain players have been using 558 simply as a nice little earner. The longer the public is kept in the dark on these huge numbers the more convinced I become that I’m right.
These numbers, without a breakdown of what is being spent on what, are meaningless and I’m very surprised that Marshall’s has not ‘officially’ contributed to this thread with some explanation.
As I understand it, HLF funds are public funds. Are the spenders of these funds not legally obliged to provide the public with detailed information on their financial activities. I’ve thought for some time that certain players have been using 558 simply as a nice little earner. The longer the public is kept in the dark on these huge numbers the more convinced I become that I’m right.
"ROLL OUT £250,000
FIRST TEST FLIGHT £750,000
FULL TEST PROGRAMME £500,000"
So the cost to get it to its first display has now risen to an additional £1.5m, over and above the money already spent.
I get the feeling that it may as well be £150m.
FIRST TEST FLIGHT £750,000
FULL TEST PROGRAMME £500,000"
So the cost to get it to its first display has now risen to an additional £1.5m, over and above the money already spent.
I get the feeling that it may as well be £150m.
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Mr Charlton, my hat's off to you, sir. 
Hopefully, now the information that people have , apparantly, been clamouring for is available, the moaning and sniping will stop and we can concentrate our efforts on raising the money required for the project to continue.
Forget.
Are you never satisfied?
Do you seriously expect Marshall to enter into discussion about this on a forum?
The information you so desperately desire is in the public domain, as posted by Mr Charlton: A - The accounts are filed at Companies House. They are on the website under financial update. They were delayed because the Trustees had to give lengthy consideration to the statement regarding the business as a 'going concern'. Which they ultimately felt unable to do.
I fear you may be sailing very close to the wind with your insinuations!
Hopefully, now the information that people have , apparantly, been clamouring for is available, the moaning and sniping will stop and we can concentrate our efforts on raising the money required for the project to continue.
Forget.
Are you never satisfied?
Do you seriously expect Marshall to enter into discussion about this on a forum?
The information you so desperately desire is in the public domain, as posted by Mr Charlton: A - The accounts are filed at Companies House. They are on the website under financial update. They were delayed because the Trustees had to give lengthy consideration to the statement regarding the business as a 'going concern'. Which they ultimately felt unable to do.
I fear you may be sailing very close to the wind with your insinuations!
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Just to clarify the accounts situation, the accounts now filed, in the last few days I believe, are for the period up to July 31st 2005, not 2006. They are not due to be filed for some considerable time. So make your own mind up about how helpful or unhelpful that is.
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I'm not even sure what the point of all this is? There's no news here - all of this information has been mentioned at length before both here and elsewhere.
As I keep saying (presumably in vain!) could we not be exploring what (if anything) can be done while there's still time, or are we just going to go round in ever decreasing circles?
Unless anyone can suggest anything to the contrary, I still think that the HLF is the only practical way out of this problem, and if that is the case, shouldn't we be thinking how we might persuade them to cough-up some more cash?
As I keep saying (presumably in vain!) could we not be exploring what (if anything) can be done while there's still time, or are we just going to go round in ever decreasing circles?
Unless anyone can suggest anything to the contrary, I still think that the HLF is the only practical way out of this problem, and if that is the case, shouldn't we be thinking how we might persuade them to cough-up some more cash?
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Originally Posted by madbadrob
Actually neither. Just an ex air cadet who managed to get a flight in the late 1980's in the lancaster. The info was given to me by a flight Lieutenant at the 2005 Waddo airshow.
Rob
Rob
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amdrewmcharlton,
I echo Whitworth's sentiments, and also take my hat off to you.
May I respectfully ask however, what is it you are hoping to find in a detailed financial breakdown? Would you be able, in any way, to relate to or identify any of the figures on the paper, or any of the companies or services listed?
I think not. Rather I feel you wish to stumble upon an entry listed
"Bank of Switzerland, account no 123456, Deposit £1,000,000"
Where exactly would all of this lead you, and what could you possibly wish to gain? Do you not feel that the HLF will have gone over every single penny going in, and coming out, and ensured all was legit and above board, before commiting themselves to awarding a grant? Unfortunately, it was widely hoped that a sponsor would be on board now, to allow access to the next stage of the HLF grant. The grant was awarded on a 65/35% basis, with the VOC needing to raise set amounts, to release the next batch of funding. Without a sponsor now, obviously this puts the onus on fundraising to raise the cash.
As Tim Mc Lelland has stated from his conversations with Dr Pleming, the £250,000 is the figure that needs concentrating on at this moment in time, as this will allow us to show to the public, and any potential sponsors, just what has been achieved, and how very close to aircraft is to it's completion. A vast amount of work has been carried out on the aircraft, and although there is still more to do, the major work has been done, and the completion is within sight. With a very real aircraft sat there, and not a stripped hulk on jacks, there is a very real possibility an investor may see potential, and something worthwhile to put money into. This may not be the case at all, but I know that personally I would be far more inclined to believe in and sponsor an aircraft I can see is pretty much complete and potentially airworthy, than one stripped and currently undergoing major maintenance, as I would imagine you would too.
Clearly, flight testing will require more money, but with backing and investors on board, this will obviously become much less of an issue. The major hurdle facing us now and threatening this magnificent aircraft, is raising in whichever way possible, the £250,000 so desperately needed.
Let's not bicker and snipe at this stage, the project can still very much be saved, and future generations can experience the sights and sounds of what is in my view, one of the greatest aircraft of all time. It would be a tragedy to waste millions of pounds, and thousands of manhours on a project that is so close to the finish line.
I echo Whitworth's sentiments, and also take my hat off to you.
May I respectfully ask however, what is it you are hoping to find in a detailed financial breakdown? Would you be able, in any way, to relate to or identify any of the figures on the paper, or any of the companies or services listed?
I think not. Rather I feel you wish to stumble upon an entry listed
"Bank of Switzerland, account no 123456, Deposit £1,000,000"
Where exactly would all of this lead you, and what could you possibly wish to gain? Do you not feel that the HLF will have gone over every single penny going in, and coming out, and ensured all was legit and above board, before commiting themselves to awarding a grant? Unfortunately, it was widely hoped that a sponsor would be on board now, to allow access to the next stage of the HLF grant. The grant was awarded on a 65/35% basis, with the VOC needing to raise set amounts, to release the next batch of funding. Without a sponsor now, obviously this puts the onus on fundraising to raise the cash.
As Tim Mc Lelland has stated from his conversations with Dr Pleming, the £250,000 is the figure that needs concentrating on at this moment in time, as this will allow us to show to the public, and any potential sponsors, just what has been achieved, and how very close to aircraft is to it's completion. A vast amount of work has been carried out on the aircraft, and although there is still more to do, the major work has been done, and the completion is within sight. With a very real aircraft sat there, and not a stripped hulk on jacks, there is a very real possibility an investor may see potential, and something worthwhile to put money into. This may not be the case at all, but I know that personally I would be far more inclined to believe in and sponsor an aircraft I can see is pretty much complete and potentially airworthy, than one stripped and currently undergoing major maintenance, as I would imagine you would too.
Clearly, flight testing will require more money, but with backing and investors on board, this will obviously become much less of an issue. The major hurdle facing us now and threatening this magnificent aircraft, is raising in whichever way possible, the £250,000 so desperately needed.
Let's not bicker and snipe at this stage, the project can still very much be saved, and future generations can experience the sights and sounds of what is in my view, one of the greatest aircraft of all time. It would be a tragedy to waste millions of pounds, and thousands of manhours on a project that is so close to the finish line.
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flipflopman,
I wasn't expecting to or hoping to discover anything of the sort. I am not suggesting any type of financial impropriety at all at any level at any time.
The issue was, where are we really at ? What has / hasn't been done ? What are the reallistic prospects of success ? Why isn't the information about the finances and progress etc given out as a matter of course etc, just wanting clarity and transparency and thankfully now we have it.
The point about accounts being filed was just a highlight that if the statutory obligations weren't being met it doesn't bode well for other aspects.
Anyhoo, we have the information from the horses mouth, I continue to donate and will do so ad infinitum and reservations of criticisms aside on the way the project is run, I hope it succeeds and I hope a few more pennies are raised due to them finally being open and letting us in on what the state of play is. Good luck to them.
I wasn't expecting to or hoping to discover anything of the sort. I am not suggesting any type of financial impropriety at all at any level at any time.
The issue was, where are we really at ? What has / hasn't been done ? What are the reallistic prospects of success ? Why isn't the information about the finances and progress etc given out as a matter of course etc, just wanting clarity and transparency and thankfully now we have it.
The point about accounts being filed was just a highlight that if the statutory obligations weren't being met it doesn't bode well for other aspects.
Anyhoo, we have the information from the horses mouth, I continue to donate and will do so ad infinitum and reservations of criticisms aside on the way the project is run, I hope it succeeds and I hope a few more pennies are raised due to them finally being open and letting us in on what the state of play is. Good luck to them.
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Tim
I think here lies our answer, and hopefully yours also...........
"some has been raised but the Trust also has creditors so without going into minute details we have continued with the 'worst case'' scenario by stating that £250,000 is needed before the end of the month. If we introduce more figures we shall simply add to the confusion. Well, that is how we see it. I hope you agree.The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"
The fact that ANOTHER quarter of a million will NOT restart this project should be pretty clear, even to you Sir, that this is all but finished.
As FI says, "it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"[/ and that aint gonner happen!!
Kind regards
TSM
I think here lies our answer, and hopefully yours also...........
"some has been raised but the Trust also has creditors so without going into minute details we have continued with the 'worst case'' scenario by stating that £250,000 is needed before the end of the month. If we introduce more figures we shall simply add to the confusion. Well, that is how we see it. I hope you agree.The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"
The fact that ANOTHER quarter of a million will NOT restart this project should be pretty clear, even to you Sir, that this is all but finished.
As FI says, "it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"[/ and that aint gonner happen!!
Kind regards
TSM
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Whitworth, Where did I suggest that Marshall ‘enter into discussion about (558) on a forum?’ I did say - I’m very surprised that Marshall has not ‘officially’ contributed to this thread with some explanation. Do you see the not so subtle difference?
I would guess that you have, at the very least, ‘affiliations’ with Marshall. As an example of what I’ve suggested, perhaps you could supply a breakdown of the £750,000 required for the ‘First Test Flight’, a figure based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace of Cambridge projections. Without explanation, £750,000 for a test flight makes no sense at all.
Thank you for your observation that I ‘may be sailing very close to the wind with my insinuations’. I’m probably long enough in the tooth to handle that; and to recognise when a raw nerve has been prodded.
I would guess that you have, at the very least, ‘affiliations’ with Marshall. As an example of what I’ve suggested, perhaps you could supply a breakdown of the £750,000 required for the ‘First Test Flight’, a figure based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace of Cambridge projections. Without explanation, £750,000 for a test flight makes no sense at all.
Thank you for your observation that I ‘may be sailing very close to the wind with my insinuations’. I’m probably long enough in the tooth to handle that; and to recognise when a raw nerve has been prodded.
Last edited by forget; 11th Aug 2006 at 08:44.
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DWH, Take a look at page 22 of this and you'll see that running adverts on TV is a touch on the cost prohibitive side, they'd be lucky to even pay for the ad let alone the production costs.
http://www.itvsales.com/itv/export/d...e_with_ITV.pdf
http://www.itvsales.com/itv/export/d...e_with_ITV.pdf
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Crikey guys, why should an organisation break down its costs to the public. Surely the Vulcan peeps had appropriate information upon which to base the decision to accept the quote? If not, they should have had. We do not need to know how industry justify the cost, only that the quotes have been accepted. I am not a fan of the British aviation industry in any way, but the commercial decisions have been made, it is not their problem.