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-   -   Monarch Anyone? (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/486524-monarch-anyone.html)

bringbackthe80s 17th Jun 2012 10:32

Guys I think a lot of people here are writing to try and to convince themselves that Monarch is a stable job. The truth is no company apart from a few majors and EZY/RYR is. That's how I see it.
Of course no company is safe from downturns and even bankrupcies, but let's face it these are the facts, we like it or not.

Having said that I agree a smaller company can give you easier rosters/some benefits/change of fleet possibly. All of this comes to a price though, which is stability.
Especially if you are based in the UK the bigger companies are probably a worse package compared to Monarch and some of the smaller airlines, this is if you don't take into account job stability.
If you talk mainland Europe there is no comparison even in 100 years. But this is a different story.

I don't mean to be negative or to support any particular business model, it's just the way I see it after 15 years in this job, and after a couple of economy crises. So for you with families and commitments think long and hard before leaving even the future possibility of a permanent contract in one of the biggest and most profitable companies in Europe.

macdo 17th Jun 2012 10:58

Monarch, while not immune, is somewhat protected by its private financial set up and they seem to be happy to add funds so that the airline can change its emphasis from Charter to scheduled carrier.Because of this, IMHO Monarch will outlive all the current competition if its business plan holds water. I should certainly prefer them as an employer and you could conceivably build a long term career there. The problem for the loco's, which is yet to be addressed, is what they do when their market reaches maturity and saturation. The SW Airlines business model seems to only allow for constant growth on the back of low profit/high turnover, many predict that when RYR and ESY are the only players left they will have to feed off each other until only the leanest survives. This may take many years, but the fallout for the pilots will be a constant downward pressure on T&Cs, which I should not fancy if I was looking forward to 30 or so years of employment.
I fully admit to having to having fingers crossed!

BitMoreRightRudder 17th Jun 2012 12:21

[QUOTE]This may take many years, but the fallout for the pilots will be a constant downward pressure on T&Cs, which I should not fancy if I was looking forward to 30 or so years of employment./QUOTE]

That is happening now, in every airline. It doesn't matter if you work for Ezy, Monarch or Air Bhutan. Monarch's big problem has always been the potential withdrawal of funding from Don Corleone. It would be bad news it they ever did go as they are one of the only decent airlines left that offer reasonable entry terms and conditions for First Officers. My punt for the future is Monarch being consumed by a leaner bigger outfit when the funding from the olive oil company dries up.

It is looking increasingly likely that there will be several airline failures in the next 18 months as the euro-zone staggers through a deep recession or goes pop entirely. I imagine Monarch will survive in some form or another.

Bergholt 17th Jun 2012 13:34

Sorry about the earlier typo. I too hope the revised Business Plan is a success. If it is not, however, Monarch will be at the mercy of its backer.

PilotsOfTheCaribbean 17th Jun 2012 18:22


I don't mean to be negative or to support any particular business model, it's just the way I see it after 15 years in this job, and after a couple of economy crises. So for you with families and commitments think long and hard before leaving even the future possibility of a permanent contract in one of the biggest and most profitable companies in Europe.
Well, after 27 years in this job let me offer a different perspective.

327 payrolls, and not a single one of them was ever as much as one day late.

A family brought up on the back of an excellent salary, pension scheme, allowances, health benefits and insurance programme.

Nearly three decades of full time unbroken employment.

Sickness that didn't result in the loss of any salary, ever.

Compassionate leave that meant picking up a phone and speaking to the chief pilot. An airline that provided me with airline tickets and hotels and as much time off as I needed without question.

Opportunities for a variety of flying.


This is a private company and as any of you who have your own private companies know, profits (on which taxes are assessed) are rarely ever spectacular. Losses are always extremely unwelcome, however they can be carried forward and utilised to good effect. I am only aware of this company making losses in two years of its 43 year history. There is an intensive programme to reverse these losses and expand the business. The shareholders and the employees are all as committed as ever to ensuring the business resumes its strong position in the market.

It is true that you never know what is around the corner, but it is also true that a lot of "big strong" companies have crashed out of the game in the last three decades. This is a relatively small business (in airline terms) but owned by a few very wealthy people. It is a private company that sits within a portfolio of other private companies thereby spreading their risk.

If it is not for you, then don't apply. But you would be very foolish to underestimate the strength and commitment of the business, as well as the loyalty and commitment of those who are a part of it.

BlackandBrown 17th Jun 2012 20:10

If it's so great and the management and owners are so altruistic why do you have such notoriously strong union membership? It sounds like a waste of money given you have such trust in the company, it's leaders and their generosity.

Only 2 years of losses in 42? Yes but they were both recently and it's already accepted that 2012 will be another loss making year.

SmilingKnifed 17th Jun 2012 20:24

Because a well-supported union enjoying a good relationship with management can only be an asset to both sides. The two best examples here being BA and Monarch.

lear999wa 17th Jun 2012 20:48

Is the application window still open?

CookPassBabtridge 17th Jun 2012 21:34

I can't see it on the site any more. Looks like I/we might have missed the boat.

Jumbo2 17th Jun 2012 22:49

Have a look at post #192 and #193 in this topic.

MaxPower2011 18th Jun 2012 11:33

B&B

You sound like someone I knew at EZY...... His name was Warwick, I think you'd get on well

New T2 Office 18th Jun 2012 12:25

Bergholt................Business plan going fine thanks.

Those of us within MON who received the emails from our ops director on friday and our group chairman earlier today will obviously already know this

:D:D

greywind 18th Jun 2012 12:32

Application done, at least as far as I can tell with the online system. Any guesses as to when people will start to hear something?

JW411 18th Jun 2012 15:48

I came out of the RAF at the end of 1978. I had two airlines on my list that I really wanted to work for. One was Laker and the other one was Monarch. At the time Monarch had an age limit and I was too old by a year. Just for a laugh, I sent the chief pilot a poem about being one year too old and thought no more about it.

A week later, I received a poem from the chief pilot of Monarch which started:

"There's a little portakabin
Just north of Luton Hoo...."

I was invited for an interview the result of which was an offer of a job on their BAC 1-11 fleet.

In the end, I went to Laker on the DC-10. (The best job offer I got money-wise was Britannia).

In 2003 I bumped into one of my old RAF friends in the old Excelsior at Manchester airport. He told me that today was his 25th anniversary of working for Monarch and that he had loved every minute of it. I was amazed. By then I had about 25 uniforms from failed airlines in my wardrobe at home.

Monarch has always been a special place to work and the likes of Bed and Breakfast really couldn't tell a cow's arse from a banjo when it comes to recognising good places to work.

I wasn't too good at it either!

New T2 Office 18th Jun 2012 17:32

JW411, wonderful story, would that have been dear old DR? Or maybe it was a little before his time as Chief pilot


Shame you didnt join us..........

Georgeablelovehowindia 18th Jun 2012 18:13

It would've been the late great Jack B, who was also not averse to dropping the odd bit of Latin into the ops manual ... Mutatis Mutandi is one that sticks in the memory. The Don took over as chief pilot designate in January 1979.

BlackandBrown 18th Jun 2012 18:17

JW411 the difference is that you:

1. Are from a different era
2. Made your choices on the basis of your heart (and had 25 uniforms as a result) whilst I am trying to make mine with my head. I'll agree neither are particularly rational methods.
3. Read too much on here as a 'signal' when in fact much of it is 'noise'.

Time will tell all and it will come soon enough.

RHINO 19th Jun 2012 08:20

Pray tell BlackandBrown,

come soon enough......

25 days
25 weeks
25 months
or 25 years.......

BlackandBrown 19th Jun 2012 08:39

I don't have a crystal ball, maybe in 8 months, maybe never.

Are you still happy at monarch? Have you always been?


Hey Sick can you find out why your mate wants to leave Easy with its better package and his better Command prospects to come to Monarch.

We are curious!
No, I didn't think so!

Your ( plural not personal ) temporary blip of thinking Monarch are the best paid, best thing since sliced bread is very capricious. It's the mood of the moment.

Monarch is a company rife with negative not positive optionality. The much bleated on about 'electronic flight bag' isn't exactly monarchs 'iPhone moment'.

CSman 19th Jun 2012 09:35

Black and Brown
 
Young Man,you are starting to appear like some one who is still wet behind the ears.Easy are a reasonable company,but do'nt put them on the same level as Monarch. Easy are cheap and cheerful and their shareholders will have no second thoughts about laying off staff if the results turn bad
JW was NOT living in the past he was speaking from experience

BlackandBrown 19th Jun 2012 09:55

CSman whilst I respect greatly those with 'grey hairs' ( and I really do ) you must admit that you are biased and sentimental. Times have changed old boy.

Hobnobanyone I'm not going to life coach you. You make your bed and you lie in it. I'll do the same.

alpha.charlie 19th Jun 2012 10:31


Monarch is a company rife with negative not positive optionality
Please explain.



And the efb is actually pretty decent, it's had a few bugs but they seem to be getting solved and once you're used to using it it becomes second nature. What that has to do with recruitment/job prospects though I don't know!?

PilotsOfTheCaribbean 19th Jun 2012 15:16

B&B did exactly the same kind of trolling on the British airways thread on this forum. He graduated from CTC a few years ago and armed with a full set of shoulder chips failed to get a job with BA apparantly. Perhaps Monarch did the same thing to him, who knows? In any event he has no experience of either company, and to be frank very little experience at all.

This thread contains posts about the main terms and conditions. It contains discussion about the business plan. It contains comment from people with a lot of experience on the subject. In fact "a lot of experience" is a good summary for the company. Goldmiths do a roaring trade with Monarch supplying long service awards, and there is a corner of an office piled high with the things, because so many are awarded annually. Maybe it is because people are prepared to sacrifice 25 years of their lives to acquire a 350 watch? Somehow I doubt it. I think it simply answers the question about whether Monarch is a good employer or not.

I accept that a career with Monarch isn't going to be for everybody, be it the would be applicants choice, or be it Monarch's choice. However it is a family business with pedigree. It is obvious why so many people find the prospect attractive.

For all of the terms and conditions. For all of the future prospects. For all of the ways the company treats its employees. You can disregard each and every one, and there is still one major advantage
to working here................... B&B doesn't!

greywind 19th Jun 2012 15:21


can you find out why your mate wants to leave Easy with its better package and his better Command prospects to come to Monarch.
Fair enough comment if people are on permanent FO contracts at Easyjet, but the guys in the UK aren't. The contract on offer at Monarch is well above that offered by easyjet via their flexi crew scheme. Without getting into the you should go and do some time in Europe argument, these types of options are not there at easyJet, flexi crew looks set to stay and it's doesn't take a huge flight of fancy to believe the company could well push it as far as contract captains in the future, is that the better command prospects?

BlackandBrown 19th Jun 2012 17:45

POTC I'm not a troll, you clearly don't know the meaning of the word. Don't have such a closed mind. How many airlines have you been personally employed to fly for. Just monarch? I wouldn't call you exactly experienced in the industry - as a pilot perhaps but not in the industry. You are like a frog deep down a well - you've only seen a tiny bit of the sky - if you come up you'll see a much bigger world!

Your die hard belief in Monarch is the result of some kind of survivorship bias.

PilotsOfTheCaribbean 19th Jun 2012 18:18

B&B,

If only you could see the irony in your own submissions.

Two major airlines in the last 32 years. Flying instructor, CFI and examiner outside of the airline environment. Previous experience of corporate flying, bush flying in Africa and aircraft manufacturer ferry flights. I would compare it to sitting on top of a fountain rather than down a well. It is not often that you appear to say anything right, and indeed you are wrong again!

Do you feel this an area in which you have some expertise? If so could you clarify what that is? On the British airways thread, you did exactly the same thing (trolling for the closed minds), and you were asked to go away. If you have nothing substansive to add to this thread, couldn't you find another train to surf?

Collins English dictionary (and others) define the noun Troll as:

a person who submits deliberately inflammatory articles to an internet discussion
If I don't know the meaning of the word, I am sure they do. Does the definition not resonate even slightly with you? Haven't other people told you this before?


Your die hard belief in Monarch is the result of some kind of survivorship bias.
I think you will find people who do have some knowledge (obviously that excludes you) would not accuse me of any particular reverence on that score. However, given the excellent career I have had with Monarch up to and including a pension, I don't think a "survivorship bias" would be necessary or timely.

Some posts ago, I did offer to take a back seat on this thread if only you would do the same thing. Sadly you didn't. However the offer still stands.
People are reading this thread with an interest in this company. There are a lot of people that are qualified to offer a view (good or bad.) Truly you are not one of them. Of course you have proffered your opinion, and everybody understands it, but just as you did on the British airways thread, it has simply been embellished by the same pointless inflammatory nonsense.

If only there was a noun for such a person?

JW411 19th Jun 2012 18:31

I had a very nice letter in the post today from my pension provider. My final salary scheme has just been increased by 3% for my pre-1997 earnings and 5% for the post-1997 earnings.

I am particularly pleased because I set up the Company pension scheme in the first place with my employer.

I wonder how Dog's Breakfast's pension scheme is shaping up?

I am very happy with my lot.

BlackandBrown 19th Jun 2012 18:42

For no other reason than this is boring me, I shall leave this thread.

Right Way Up 19th Jun 2012 18:46

B&B,

I bet you don't keep to your word....I'll give you a day. Even now its gnawing at you. ;)

Flightlevel001 19th Jun 2012 18:53

Well thank the good lord for that....!

Anyway, has anyone that managed to apply heard anything back at all?

Flying Torquewrench 19th Jun 2012 19:01

FlightLevel001,

From the rumourmill, close to 1000 applications so it might take a few days before you hear something. Good luck! :ok:

Flying Wild 19th Jun 2012 19:02

I'd heard it was 480 in the three days it was available.

SEAMASTER 19th Jun 2012 19:07

Bye B&B leave it to the people who actually work at monarch to offer relevant information !!!!

Flying Torquewrench 19th Jun 2012 19:08

Fair enough, I was told just over 850 but it doesn't matter. Obviously a large amount of applications have been received and it will take some time to wade through them.

I am sure that the pilots who have applied will hear something as soon as possible.

skyflyer737 19th Jun 2012 22:09

It's not often I feel the need to post on here but I just wish to express my total relief that Black&Brown has finally left the thread. B&B, you really are an irritating individual and I hope our paths never cross. It's fine to disagree with others and have your own opinion but the way you go about expressing it winds a lot of people up. I hope you're not like that in the flightdeck.

New T2 Office 20th Jun 2012 07:27

Skyflyer737..............Sadly I think its safe to say he probably is, as POC alluded to in an earlier post, we at Monarch can just be grateful we dont have to fly with him:D:D

The fact he isn't employed by us has probably added a couple of hundred CV's to to the already huge pile!

Good luck to all applying, and to those fortunate enough to be selected, I hope you enjoy your time here as much as I have

Mi EASA Su EASA 20th Jun 2012 10:14

Does anybody know when the job will reappear on the Monarch job site? They only had it up for about 3 days and I missed it! :sad:

Blighty Pilot 20th Jun 2012 10:22

25th June.

Blighty Pilot 21st Jun 2012 00:40

No one who has previously applied will be at a disadvantage! The only screw up was that "the server" (read manpower assigned to Pilot Recruitment) couldn't cope with the number of applications in a short space of time and a bit of breathing space was required to clear the backlog - that's my understanding anyway.

greywind 21st Jun 2012 09:51

You can login to the system and check your application status. Apparently according to an earlier post "Active Application" indicates a successfully submitted application.


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