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-   -   Monarch Anyone? (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/486524-monarch-anyone.html)

MaxPower2011 11th Jun 2012 21:55

As Much as I respect [email protected]'s opinion, I must sincerely disagree with much of what he says. easyJet may well be everything it wasnt whilst I was there.

Monarch may well be expanding at completely the wrong time (although I disagree) but if im completely honest, i would rather take my chances with Monarch than easyJet. Personally, easyJet is not a company that I would like to be associated with any longer than was absolutely necessary. I'm sure you will give us a reason why easyJet is a long term better prospect than Monarch, but from a personal perspective easy offers non of the lifestyle family options that it previously prided itself on.

Monarch is offering UK bases, however much you feel it is the problem of the candidate, wanting to live in the country of his birth (shock, horror!), it is much more than what is offered by easy or anyone else.

It is difficult to sit by and listen to, people from companies that treat there employees terribly , belittle other airlines when all they have is a general knowledge of said companies.

Monarch are an excellent company, I have flown for both. I found easy to be unbelievably frustrating and during my 3 years there I can honestly say I never had any pride in flying for the company. I was given the option and I decided to gamble on Monarch over the prospect of a long term career at easyJet. Bar one person, everyone who joined easyjet with me (24) has now left. I think that says a lot about everyones perception of a career at easyJet (except perhaps yourself)

Alexander de Meerkat 11th Jun 2012 22:35

Sadly, like most threads on PPRune, this has degenerated into slagging everyone else off. Also, people end up replying to what has not been said rather than what has been said. I have not the slightest doubt that Monarch is a great place to work, but that is not the issue. If you have no type-rating then clearly Monarch has its advantages. Historically, there has been a long wait for commands, simply because people do like it and do not leave.

I see the airline industry like a game of 'Musical Chairs', where the name of the game is to be on the strongest chair when the music stops. Looking around at the situation in Europe generally, and the airline industry in particular, in my view the music is about to stop in a big way. My judgement is that Monarch and Virgin would be vulnerable to becoming casualties under those circumstances - I hope I am wrong, but that is my view nonetheless. Therefore, my own perspective is that to leave easyJet, on a flexicrew contract or not, to join Monarch is a very imprudent move. I say that for a variety of reasons, ranging from the fact that Monarch has a very old fleet compared to easyJet's (call me a sad loser, but I like to fly new aircraft straight out the factory) through to their financial position. Relatively speaking, easyJet is in a very strong position financially, and is well-positioned compared to most airlines in Europe. A further factor is that historically the time to command at easyJet has been significantly shorter than that at Monarch or Virgin. Finally, there is the opportunity to work many places in Europe. Monarch can definitely offer an intro to long haul for those that want it, so that is clearly a notable plus point in their favour.

So, let us consider the dreaded flexicrew issue, which is the source of such angst among our cadets. I have to say that I have enormous sympathy for their plight. What easyJet has done in alienating these young pilots is simply ridiculous and utterly reprehensible. The mere fact they could think of going to Monarch tells its own story. Nonetheless, I have to say that their judgement is being unwisely clouded in many cases into leaving because they erroneously believe that they have no future at easyJet. Every one of these guys will get a permanent contract, however frustrating the wait is. As I have said, if this was BA or Cathay, I would have a different view, but Monarch (or Virgin) are simply not in that league.

Regarding the comments a few pages back from HPBleed, I have met a number of people at Oxford, so forgive me if I am speaking to the wrong guy here! You rightly said I did not comment to you, as the die was cast and that was that. All I can tell you is that had you been my son, and I was doing everything in my power to act in your best interests beforehand, I would have advised you very strongly against going there. I fully accept that a salary of 117k for a 20 year Captain is very good (not hugely different from a 10 year captain at easyJet) - but no use whatsoever if it takes forever to get it or the Company goes bankrupt before it happens. Returning to my games illustration of earlier, I would also say that the airline industry is akin to 'Snakes and Ladders', whereby you throw the dice and hope to land on the best square. Any of us who have been around a long time know that you sometimes think you made a great move only to discover that the six you just threw to get on square 99 instead sent you down a huge snake to square 24. Similarly the 2 you just threw can put you at the bottom of a massive ladder and you jump to square 87 from square 12. The bottom line is you do not always know the good deals and the bad deals when you make the choices - it is only later the truth comes out. You are clearly taking a long term view of your decision to go to Monarch, and if you have weighed up the pros and cons then good luck to you. Having made the choice you made to go to Monarch, I truly wish you nothing but the best and a great career there. The fact I am not confident of their future, does not mean that I do not wish all the guys/gals there anything other than the very best of good fortune.

So, please hear what I and others are saying. No one is slagging off Monarch or saying it is not a great fun place to work. There are, however, enough negatives to make me question the wisdom of an easyJet pilot going there. If I am wrong, then I am wrong - I frankly hope I am.

Robert G Mugabe 11th Jun 2012 22:53

One of the roles of the CAA


The CAA has a broad role in aviation and our primary objectives focus on:

Enhancing aviation safety performance by pursuing targeted and continuous improvements in systems, culture, processes and capability.
Ozymandias thanks for the education. As you can see one of their responsibilities is targeting the culture that exists within our industry. So forgive me for using T&C in the statement I made.

Does this resonate better with you


A regulatory body that is ineffectual in maintaining the culture of the industry as a whole
Seems most UK pilots on these forums are really chuffed with the just and honest culture that the British Aviation Industry demonstrably is.:ugh:

autobrake3 12th Jun 2012 08:05

AdM, when intelligent and well educated people are disenfranchised and lied to by a self serving management structure, it really is not a big surprise to find them taking their chances elsewhere. The poisonous unjust culture that pervades easjet isn't worth hanging your career hat on for any money.

MrHorgy 12th Jun 2012 08:51

Again, if I can try and bring sanity to this thread..

I note that the paper application forms have now been taken down, and an online HR system put in its place. However, there doesn't seem to be any openings when I search for pilots or any other combination that I would expect would throw up a result.

Has anyone else had any luck?

stop, stop, stop 12th Jun 2012 09:06

Nope.....I'll keep trying though.

windshear-a-head 12th Jun 2012 09:07

It seems strange, I sent off a CV and cover letter last week and just completed the original 3 part application - however it wasn't very 'pilot orientated' so maybe they've realised and are putting up a new one and hopefully this one will be an online application?

Time will tell....

clearofconflict 12th Jun 2012 09:07

No luck,

I'm assuming that they don't want the paper version any more then?

Is there anyone on the inside who knows what's happening?

Cheers

HPbleed 12th Jun 2012 09:12

AdM,

Thankyou for your explanation - I have absolute respect for your opinions and indeed learnt a great deal from our sim sessions. Just some thoughts on your latest comments:

When I started training, CTC were placing people straight into the right hand seat at easyJet on a permanent contract with TR paid for -1000 for 6 months (+flight pay) initially but then onto the full whack. I spent a very long time researching all of my options - RAF, OAA, FTE, sponsored schemes and of course CTC. CTC was quite clearly the best option to get that elusive job, but not only that, it was the only available option at the time to get unsecured finance and hence the reason I chose it. Halfway through training the path changed and it was now flexicrew, plus paying for a TR. This was meant to be a"temporary" measue to get the airline through the recession and volcanic ash problems. 2.5 years later flexicrew is still here and now includes pretty much ALL the FO's in the UK.

easyJet have now overcrewed as they know they don't need to pay their FO's if they're not flying which results in low hours - I did around 600 last year, 400 of which were over summer.

So, even though I had never wanted to borrow money from my parents I have had to - this winter - after 2 years of flying for easyJet as a supposed First Officer. Do you have any idea how demoralising that is? How stressful relyign on your girlfriend and parents to buy your food, petrol etc. I have never had ANYTHING from easyJet - not a medical, not uniform, not LOL, no pension or health care.


Every one of these guys will get a permanent contract, however frustrating the wait is.
I disagree. I never applied for Europe for a couple of reasons - one of which was that in the application it said to not apply if you wanted a UK basing. The other that my girlfriend earns more than me and luckily we can afford to stay in this country even on a flexicrew wage - most of the year anyway. We got engaged and I did not want to spend that engagement apart from here after spending a year in New Zealand apart. Give it another couple of years and yes I probably would have applied for Europe. Now it is too late, Europe is oversubscribed with flexi pilots attempting to get a permanent contract. Very few people are coming back to the UK as the money is so good on the continent. I earnt around 30k last year, which after you take off my loan repayments leaves very little.

As I said previously what happens in another 2 years when the next round of upgrades are due but all the FO's are on flexicrew? I will eat my old polyester easyJet uniform if flexicrew captains are not flying in 3 years. BALPA will not be able to stop it. Even if they do, it'll be for a reduced B scale command as seen lately in Lisbon. The future is not so rosy for easyJet.

I have not gone to Monarch purely for the money. Already, the base manager at LGW knows my name (some may NOT like that!) and I have got to know 3 or 4 of the trainers pretty quickly.

No-one knows Monarchs full financial situation but the owners have a net wealth of well over $2.5bn. A little more than easyJet. Monarch are making massive moves to streamline their operation and improve costs and the difference is that the crews WANT to help because they enjoy looking after their own airline - unlike eJ. There is a fleet replacement plan being implemented as we speak - and anyway, you and I both know how many electrical faults there are with the new airbuses!

Time to command doesn't bother me. Historically people would take over ten years anyway, after 2 years of flying I feel like I am only jsut starting to feel comfortable and can easily see another 5 or 6 years going by learning something new every day. Monarch have had bases in other countries throughout Europe before and there is nothing to say they won't in their future expansion.

I don't like your analogy of musical chairs or snakes and ladders. Both these games are down to luck. Only part of the aviation game is luck - I've weighed up my options and am making the most of my luck.

I couldn't face another year on flexicrew and I just don't see the happy future that you see with permanent contracts and quick commands.

Dct_Mopas 12th Jun 2012 09:31

Well wrote HPBleed, couldn't have described the current situation better.

MrHorgy 12th Jun 2012 10:05

To all the doom-mongerers... It would appear the website has crashed already for demand! :E

Blinkz 12th Jun 2012 10:07

Working fine here :ok:

clearofconflict 12th Jun 2012 10:12

I just submitted my application ok. Although it is a little strange. A lot of the areas don't give much explanation or ability for expansion. I hope the attached CV does the job!

RHINO 12th Jun 2012 10:22

Well put HP bleed. A couple of things, it would appear all 3000 of Monarchs employees are giving it there all for the changes that are going on to see the future success of the Group. They all know the industry and the trials and tribulations that it is going through. It does not surprise me that large numbers of Easy people have joined Monarch and they continue to do so. They are in the main young, bright and know the duff deal Easy Jet has them on. Monarch if nothing else is straight forward. If Monarch did sail off into the sunset they will get another job. Better to enjoy what your doing in the meantime and be respected for it. Finally I find it odd that Jet 2 has not been mentioned in this thread.....could have sworn it's fleet is a lot older than Monarch's!

Good luck to all who apply, it is a great place to work.

clearofconflict 12th Jun 2012 11:19

Yup, same problem, hoping CV does the job!

shaftsburn 12th Jun 2012 11:47

Where are the 'Degree' and 'Education' questions??

Yorkshire-Pud 12th Jun 2012 11:55

No Degree or Education 'questions' on my application either ?

windshear-a-head 12th Jun 2012 11:55


Yup, same problem, hoping CV does the job!
Hoping the same too. :ok:

shaftsburn 12th Jun 2012 11:58

No job history section on mine either... :ugh:

Yorkshire-Pud 12th Jun 2012 11:58

IRC927 that is - Pilot - First Officer A320 / 321 (Birmingham, East Midlands, Gatwick, Leeds and Manchester)

Skyward85 12th Jun 2012 12:37

Once the application has been submitted is it possible to see if your CV has been attached correctly?

Skyward85 12th Jun 2012 13:09

Is there an option to add education and job history? My application had a 'test' with few general questions about hours, convictions, etc. Then an option to add CV and that was it.

assymetricdrift 12th Jun 2012 14:07

UK EASA ATPL? I've got a UK JAA ATPL at the moment...

I haven't had mine converted yet at all - although it will be done at some stage, no doubt. It's just not been done yet...

windshear-a-head 12th Jun 2012 14:10

I'm sure your not alone, I bet there are very few that have converted - I too have JAA ATPL.

assymetricdrift 12th Jun 2012 14:14

And no education/degree section too?? Oh heck, better make sure that the CV is properly adjusted and ready to go. Looks like it's one shot at this, and the form seems to change on a minute by minute basis!

McBruce 12th Jun 2012 14:53

Could you just not give them your previous UK reference number? you can convert back and your old reference number would be your licence number again. Its only a paperwork exercise that doesn't take long?

McBruce 12th Jun 2012 15:10

Not too sure, its rather vague! but the fact they state they require UK issued EASA licence and that doesn't happen until September.....

Flying Wild 12th Jun 2012 15:35

Anyone having trouble getting past the registration page?
It doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

Disregard. Finally managed to get in. What an application system! I almost prefer the paper application they had previously!

master_warning 12th Jun 2012 16:48

Is it the same as other airline online applications where you can go back, review and edit information that you've entered before you finally submit the whole application?

Skyward85 12th Jun 2012 17:55

What is this test score about? My application was brief, just some yes/no questions plus your CV. Have I missed something?

leyahl 12th Jun 2012 18:18

Bloody typical. I sent off a full paper application form yesterday only for this to pop up today! I wonder where I am in the system. Probably in the bin!

OutsideCAS 12th Jun 2012 18:21

Ditto all the above. Awful submission portal. Makes you wonder who put it together, maybe an IT stude with a few hours to kill ?.

Fair_Weather_Flyer 12th Jun 2012 18:42

I submitted my paper application yesterday and now find that they are attempting online recruitment, albeit in a very amateurish way.

It makes me wonder if the entire expansion is as rushed and ill conceived as this online system. After all, they are trying to recruit career pilots; what a terrible way to go about it.

PD210 12th Jun 2012 18:53

Is it just me or is anyone else very suspicious of this online application form...?

It's so bad and looks like it could hijack your computer and do nasty things. And such badly worded questions. I really am "proceeding with caution" here.

Stick35 12th Jun 2012 20:43

Hey guys,

Did just the famous test. Got only 4points on my test since i'm not a uk citizen. :ugh:

Never seen something strange like this one.

BlackandBrown 12th Jun 2012 21:16

HPBleed,

It's all down to being willing and lucky. Luck is a much bigger factor than you are crediting it with. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a charlatan of sorts.

Alexander de Meerkat 13th Jun 2012 00:06

HPBleed - in some ways I am very uncomfortable having this discussion in public. I truly hope you have made the right decision. I know you do not accept the luck argument, but as the years go by I have come to see that my games analogies are pretty accurate. We all make choices that seem good at the time - in the light of time they seem less so. My own aviation career is littered with good and bad choices - frankly none of them were made with absolute knowledge and some have worked out well and others have not. You can be the best guy in the world, but be in the wrong place at the wrong time and you are stuffed. I think you will find many older pilots (50+) who have been made redundant on a number of occasions (DanAir, Air Europe, Excel, AB Airlines, Debonair, etc, etc) and these people tend to be much more fans of the 'luck' argument. I hope the guys at Monarch never live to see it, but having been there myself I know only too well that no airline is guaranteed tomorrow. I therefore personally put a huge premium on being in a stable airline, and do not see Monarch as fitting that category. Nonetheless, I fully respect your decision and wish you well in it. You may yet prove me wrong, and in many ways I hope you do.

Regarding your arguments over flexicrew, I cannot defend the indefensible - it is an absolute disgrace and caused terrible damage to our reputation. I do, however, think that no one will get the boot as a result of being at the end of a contract. Anyway, I shall vacate now and leave this to the genuine seekers of employment at Monarch who really do not care for this discussion. Good luck to one and all.

VNAVPTH 13th Jun 2012 08:52

Perhaps the Flexi-crews are ok. It's the perm contracts that have to be worried. As a higher expense overhead on the company's books, they will be the first to be chopped if EZY start to struggle. Experience counts for nothing in LCC land, only cost matters.

Fat Dog 13th Jun 2012 09:21

Hilarious application form... :O

BlackandBrown 13th Jun 2012 09:44

Out of interest does anyone know when these positions are to start?


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