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-   -   Monarch Anyone? (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/486524-monarch-anyone.html)

Robert G Mugabe 10th Jun 2012 08:08

Tight Seat


Be pro-active, it will help.
Sauce for the goose.....

BlackandBrown 10th Jun 2012 08:23

I can think of several I have flown with who have made the move within the last 5 years.

CaptainProp 10th Jun 2012 10:23


No loyalty or integrity amongst some of the flexicrew and cadet ranks.
Loyalty to what?! Companies that will not even offer them a full time contract but instead temporary ones with no security, no pension, no sick pay and no guarantee of income unless they are flying... You talking about loyalty and integrity to these kind of companies?! Are you serious?!

Don't come here with your BS moral preaching! It is because of more senior guys like us, like you (!), in our industry being too weak and self focused that these type of crap contracts and general deterioration of T&Cs were allowed to be pushed through in the first place.

"Saving the gunpowder for the real fights" or how was it years ago when there was still a fighting chance of stopping this runaway train?

Having said the above I'm not saying that going from easyjet to Monarch, or the other way around, is a good or bad move. In fact it is a very individual decision depending on each persons personal situation and to a certain extent their career aspirations....

TartinTon 10th Jun 2012 10:41

BlackandBrown...ignorance comes in different forms...Monarch has been a mainly scheduled operation since 2005...

BlackandBrown 10th Jun 2012 10:58


BlackandBrown...ignorance comes in different forms...
Quite......


Monarch has been a mainly scheduled operation since 2005...
Are you sure about that?



After many years of operating profitably, Monarch Group, the parent company of Monarch Airlines and Cosmos Holidays, reported a large pre-tax loss of 32.3m in the financial year ending in 2009, which covered the depths of the recession in 2008. This necessitated a 45m cash injection from the Mantegazzas who have [co-]owned the group since its inception. The Mantegazza's cash injection was accompanied by a change in strategy that saw Monarch Airlines changing its focus from being primarily a charter carrier to becoming a predominantly "scheduled leisure airline", with a target of 80% of its business being scheduled (compared with only 20% in 2005).

In the words of the A320 auto thrust system 'retard, retard'

PilotsOfTheCaribbean 10th Jun 2012 12:06


Chief willy I paid for my pilot training (an fATPL) with an unsecured loan via the CTC scheme. I assure you I have never paid for a type rating - I was lucky. People that have had no sensible choice. For example when we began selection/ training in 2006/2007 the economy was incredible - it was a reasonable thing to follow our dreams via ths method. In 2008 the bottom fell out of the world economy. We were passed the PNR. Once qualified people are in for a penny, in for a pound.

B&B,

For someone with a whole handful of years of experience, perhaps we should be grateful for the benefit of the same insightful comment that you so regularly lavish on the British airways thread on this same forum.

A strong industry, even in a fiercely competitive market, is a good thing for everybody with a stake in it. The global economy has certainly been on its knees since you were placed into this sector of the industry. Some of us have longer memories.

When easyjet was born, it was with Monarch 737 aircraft. A lot of its very early growth was with leased in aircraft and crews from Monarch and with the support of Monarch engineering. You were probably still in school in those days, but it would be wise to understand the vulnerability of being number two in this industry. Take a look at the history of aviation companies (as, or with airlines) that have occupied this position: Horizon (Orion airways); Intersun (Air Europe); British Caledonian, etc.

Survival is about the ability to adapt and having the resource to the cash that enables that transformation. Large companies (such as BA) and smaller companies (such as Monarch) have adapted their business models to the realities of the industry in the current and forseeable trading environment. These companies either through public or private resources also have access to the cash to finance these changes. A lot of aviation companies without such resouces, have fallen victim to the reality of that situation, not only in the last 5 years, but throughout the last 90 years.

Monarch has been an excellent employer for over 40 years. It has changed, but continues to be an excellent employer. Even at CTC it is viewed as something of First prize when it comes to placements. I know why that is, and I am sure you know why that is. Monarch has been viewed as more of a career company for many of these graduates, which is why they now comprise nearly a quarter of the entire pilot force, with graduates occupying many senior management and training positions within what is obviously a mature company.

BlackandBrown 10th Jun 2012 12:32

Easyjet started with 737s leased from GB Airways.

I'm not belittling Monarch for trying to adapt and I agree wholeheartedly that competition is essential. What I am debating is the sense in joining Monarch when a person has a permanent flying job. There is no sense in it. As for my flexicrew colleagues who will only accept a permanent UK contract with whoever is willing to give it, they will no doubt get what they deserve, whatever that may be.

Monarch is certainly not (and never was) the prized position from CTC. People wanted BA for the variety/ image or easyJet for the regionality/ quick command/ quick build up of hours. If they told you in an interview they wanted Monarch, well, what did you expect?

It is great that Monarch are offering people a chance now but they too have left cadets after their 'try before you buy' period without a job in the past, several times - I have flown with and know a number who were affected.

TartinTon 10th Jun 2012 12:46

Quote:
Monarch has been a mainly scheduled operation since 2005...

Are you sure about that?
Yes. Yes I am.

Quote:
After many years of operating profitably, Monarch Group, the parent company of Monarch Airlines and Cosmos Holidays, reported a large pre-tax loss of 32.3m in the financial year ending in 2009, which covered the depths of the recession in 2008. This necessitated a 45m cash injection from the Mantegazzas who have [co-]owned the group since its inception. The Mantegazza's cash injection was accompanied by a change in strategy that saw Monarch Airlines changing its focus from being primarily a charter carrier to becoming a predominantly "scheduled leisure airline", with a target of 80% of its business being scheduled (compared with only 20% in 2005).


In the words of the A320 auto thrust system 'retard, retard'
Indeed but don't be so hard on yourself. You shouldn't always believe what you read in a press release (as I'm sure you know from the plethora of Easy releases over the years)

I'm fortunate enough to know the facts and not have to rely on press and conjecture.

BlackandBrown 10th Jun 2012 13:03

Well until you prove it with evidence I'll believe the press release rather than some anonymity on pprune. I make a point and give evidence, you make a point and stomp your feet that you're right because you are 'in the know'.

ZeBedie 10th Jun 2012 14:11


Easyjet started with 737s leased from GB Airways.
Well done for reading Wikipedia, but I can remember seeing ex-Monarch 737s in easyjet livery at LTN. G-MONG and G-BWJA. I think NG became GEZYA.

BlackandBrown 10th Jun 2012 14:32

GB airways operated the first flights. Let's not get too tangential shall we?

tchaikovsky 10th Jun 2012 15:52

Do one BlackandBrown. We get your message now bore off.

Good look to those of you applying. It's a great place to
Work. You will work hard and be treated with respect at the same time. You'll enjoy going to work as the people at Monarch make it that way.

B&B that is not a dig at your employer before you start again. Why would it be, we know how great your employer is anyway and long may you remain there.

DrRedHead 10th Jun 2012 15:55

Advert in this weeks flight

"First Officer Recruitment,

Due to fleet expansion Monarch Airlines has an ongoing recruitment for experienced pilots. New opportunities exist for future basing at EMA and LBA as well as current operations at BHX, LGW and MAN.

Full type rating training will be provided to successful applicants when necessary, however pilots with a rating on A320 family encouraged to apply.'

1/4 page advert

shaftsburn 10th Jun 2012 17:03

Is there an online application mentioned in the new advert?

Flight International isn't available where I'm based, so any further info on the ad would be appreciated :ok:

stop, stop, stop 10th Jun 2012 17:08

There is.......but it is a link to the current Monarch jobs page on their website.

No link to an online form yet. Not that I can see anyways.

PilotsOfTheCaribbean 10th Jun 2012 17:43

B&B,

I was contracted to fly some of those early services back in 96. I remember our 737's being bought by easyjet. You were probably what, 14 or 15 then? But what do I know.

I am not sure why you come on these threads to spread your wealth of experience to people considering companies you yourself have never worked for. Having spent a couple of years tirading against all things British airways, I suppose we should be flattered by your attention.

The internet is a good medium for Trolls. It is also a good mask when it comes to profiling people. I don't know if you remember last year when talking about your own company you said:


Sounds to me like the original poster could be at the wrong size base. Some people like small bases and some like large bases- I really don't like small bases - usually lots of arrogant skygods that have lost touch with reality and the worst bit is you can be rostered to fly with them for several days on the trot. Everyone knows your business, wants to know your business, gossips, expects you all to be best mates and if you aren't then you are an outsider. Everyone has an unqualified opinion on each others abilities - its tiresome.Big bases - turn up, do the job, have the same conversation but with a new person, go home and live life - a healthier balance in my opinion.

I could be wrong but you may want to try a simple base swap to get a base of the opposite size to suit your type - do you have a life or do you like to eat, sleep, breath your colleagues?
Do you have a problem getting along with people generally?

Having annoyed the BA folk here to the 'nth degree, could you do us the courtesy of finding another thread to discuss something you clearly know little or nothing about. Your attitude and comment is most certainly not representative of easyjet, or BA or Monarch, or Indeed CTC cadets in general. Going back to my original comment on adaptability, the same would hold true for improving your chances at interview or getting along with your collegues at smaller bases........................in all probability.

BlackandBrown 10th Jun 2012 18:04

Clearly I've touched a nerve for you to spend your day off - your Sunday that could have spent with your family, to psychoanalyse and investigate my posting history. Play the game, not the player.

Anyway pirate, let's let everyone get on and focus on the title of the thread.

PilotsOfTheCaribbean 10th Jun 2012 18:23

Believe me, you haven't touched a nerve, you are simply driving people up the wall with your inanity in general. Don't worry, I have teenagers who seem to have devoted their lives to doing much the same thing, so I am well practiced.

I am not sure why you think I am spending a day off writing a reply to you, or neglecting my family. I am currently "working" down-route sitting on a beach with my laptop and a cold beer on the wicker table at my side. To be fair the sun is starting to set so I need to go and get ready to meet the crew for dinner...and more beer.

I am not asking you to be grateful for anything, much less something that you had no involvement with whatsoever.


I STILL don't think Monarch are likely to do well looking ahead.

Good! Because given the accuracy of your other posts, that gives me an added sense of confidence.

As for letting everyone "get on with the title and focus of this thread," it is titled "Monarch anyone?" I have nearly three decades of experience, so I feel qualified to answer and contribute with a modicum of gravitas. However if it means you will give it a break, I will happily stand aside.

BlackandBrown 10th Jun 2012 18:28

No, give your advice, I wasn't trying to stop you. I was debating monarch for the future not slating its people who in the most part seem to be good guys. Enjoy the sunset.

FREDA 10th Jun 2012 19:38

B&B, please don't get a life, your posts bring a massive grin to my chops on any thread you grace with your presence.
Bravo!
:ok:

clearofconflict 10th Jun 2012 19:55

Advert in Flight International?
 
I have the latest flight international.....5-11 June and I can't find the advert that everyone is talking about??

Am I being dense?

Coffin Corner 10th Jun 2012 20:06

clearofconflict

This coming week's edition I think fella, good luck.

daveh767 10th Jun 2012 20:53

POC,


I wouldn't wast your time conversing with the likes of brownandblack or whoever it is, the internet has brought us all wonderful new opportunities since it arrived, but unfortunately it also introduced the dreaded 'troll'.....I had to look that up a few months ago, I had no idea what it meant, but I do now!!

Please dont desert the private MON forum though, your witty posts are why I visit this website!!

I was on the 737 at the same time as you, George's bar in Berlin.............now, those were the days:]] Monarch has served us both splendidly, and will continue to do so, and in the next few months will offer many more pilots the chance to join us.

I think CaptainProp summed it up quite well in an earlier post:


'In fact it is a very individual decision depending on each persons personal situation and to a certain extent their career aspirations.... '

ZeBedie 10th Jun 2012 21:44

Since Monarch is likely to expand rapidly by 50%, time to command should be reasonable for anyone joining now. Easy on the other hand, has already had its expansion. So don't go to easyjet, or you'll be stuck in the right seat for ages ;)

BlackandBrown 10th Jun 2012 22:04

Reading your post reminded me of the quote:

Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.

Iver 11th Jun 2012 00:13

My dad is bigger than your dad!!!! :} These threads are very entertaining. How about we consider how Europe is going down the :mad: and many airline pilots throughout the continent could very well end up unemployed... Let's be happy that we currently have a job. Our Euro governments have put us in a percarious position and now the travel/leisure industry may suffer considerably.

Good luck to everyone - and be thankful if you are still employed and flying for a living. :cool:

Robert G Mugabe 11th Jun 2012 00:43

Ding Ding Round 2....

Captain Prop


Loyalty to what?! Companies that will not even offer them a full time contract but instead temporary ones with no security, no pension, no sick pay and no guarantee of income unless they are flying... You talking about loyalty and integrity to these kind of companies?! Are you serious?!
A large number of orange flexicrew pilots have been offered full time contracts at easyJet. Those who are holding out for a UK basing are not being placed because there are no full time positions available in UK. You can however get placements on the continent.

With regard to the state of the industry at the moment. Dont try and give me the guff that its all the old timers fault and that the LCC are to blame. It is a combination of in no particular order.

1. Ineffective UK pilot Unions.

2. Old timers protecting their T&C at the expense of new joiners industry wide.

3. The death of traditional FTOs' and self improver modular training.

4. The availability of easy money and the advent of integrated FTOs'.

5. A new breed of pilot untempered by the school of hard knocks and the university of life who expect everything on a plate simply because they have spent the banks money on a dream.( While not reading the small print on their contracts )

6. A regulatory body that is ineffectual in maintaining the T&C of the industry as a whole.

7. The economic environment.

So in summary good luck to all joining Monarch. I am sure it is a wonderful company to work for.I do feel that they planned this expansion with the expectation that the economic situation in Europe would be much more favourable than it is. Time will tell. I would much prefer to have a full time contract with easyJet than with Monarch if I was a new joiner as easyJet seems to be on a more secure financial footing.

BlackandBrown 11th Jun 2012 08:00

Jersey145, just so you have the facts, for CTC we had to do a 4 stage selection, then we had to pass assessments for easy and then to get the Permanant position with easyjet we had to apply formally and perform a selection and have our training files assessed. Quite what you think monarchs selection is like I don't know.

To keep attacking me and debating anything other than Monarchs viability as a long term flying job shows to me that you either:

1. Know my assessment of their situation is probably and at least logically correct.

2. Are a superstitious dreamer that believes in the 'I must increase my bust' method.

As for the grammar in your and zebedies posts, it reminded of the funny quote:


Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
Please, of course, give us some good reasons to join Monarch considering the economy, the future of this industry and monarchs brand.

renort 11th Jun 2012 08:22

Typically the flight deck community will be focused on the t&c's whether it's better or worse than flexi etc as that is your job, and good luck in your choice.

The real question is not about filling the seats in front of the f/d door, it's filling the ones behind it, this potential growth is great, but are you really sure the business is sustainable.

Having very close hand experience of Monarch management I would say buyer beware.

The guys and gals on the front line are 99 percent excellent folks, it's the people upstairs I worry about. This expansion has come about ten years too late, so many ships have sailed.

SD. 11th Jun 2012 08:46

How many jobs in the UK are considered to be 'safe'?


Tui, TCX, VS have all laid off not that long ago, any on a flexi crew or brookfield can be laid off at anytime.

BlackandBrown 11th Jun 2012 09:25

Yeah and I wouldn't recommend leaving a Permanant job for any of those carriers either.

Horgy 11th Jun 2012 09:39

Back on topic if I can...

Does anyone know the roster pattern at MON? I assume it's typical charter with GDO's each month but otherwise random..

Does anyone know if the rumours of 737NG are true? That's why I fly now but I don't fancy being cramped in there on a Friday night SSH, will recruitment I guess be initially for the airbus?

More importantly, how is the assessment? Is it down to earth or BA style "do you prefer ketchup or mayonnaise" etc type questions?

BlackandBrown 11th Jun 2012 09:46


Possessives in business names

See also: S-form
Where a business name is based on a family name it should take an apostrophe, but many leave it out (contrast Sainsbury's with Harrods). In recent times there has been an increasing tendency to drop the apostrophe. Names based on a first name are more likely to take an apostrophe (Joe's Crab Shack). Some business names may inadvertently spell a different name if the name with an s at the end is also a name, such as Parson. A small activist group called the Apostrophe Protection Society[45] has campaigned for large retailers such as Harrods, Currys, and Selfridges to reinstate their missing punctuation. A spokesperson for Barclays PLC stated, "It has just disappeared over the years. Barclays is no longer associated with the family name."[46] Further confusion can be caused by businesses whose names tend to look like they are pronounced differently without an apostrophe such as Paulos Circus, and other companies that leave the apostrophe out of their logos but include it in written text, such as Waterstone's and Cadwalader's.

I'm not a troll just because I have a different opinion to you, you closed minded fool.

Try answering my question:

Give us all good reasons to join Monarch considering all the aforementioned elements.

Coffin Corner 11th Jun 2012 09:51

For goodness sake chaps, half this shite can be deleted from this thread. Is there anything useful to read in the last 2-3 pages?

As Horgy said, anyone have any info on typical summer/winter rosters, part year working, interview process? PPJN says a good ol' fashion chat with the management, is this still the case?

Artie Fufkin 11th Jun 2012 10:11

BandB - What you have posted doesn't excuse your incorrect grammar. Look at it again.

FWIW, I actually agree with your view that longterm prospects look better at easy than at "monarchs".

BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES 11th Jun 2012 10:22

In an attempt to avoid the black/ brown hamster wheel, I think I understand what he is trying to get at, re leaving big giant orange Europe for what he sees as small fry. However, it would appear his soap box is a touch large.

Anyway. The payscales on PPJN, are they still accurate? I would search the rest of the thread, but it is rather tedious. Perhaps PMs are more appropriate for rubbishing each other?

Firestorm 11th Jun 2012 10:28

Clear of Conflict:

Flight International 12-18 June, page 49, top left.

edited to add


First Officer Recruitment-Latest Pilot Jobs-Latest Pilot Jobs

spider_man 11th Jun 2012 10:47


plan to add at least 4 A/C over next year, 2 new bases, heard expansion to between 40-60 A/C depending on who you ask.
NB: They will also retire 3 a/c over next 14 months (2 A300, 1 A320) and a further 5 a/c by end of 2014, according to jethros. That brings the fleet count back down to 24. Where would these additional 36 airframes be based in the UK? Is this business plan based on the failure of another uk operator I wonder.

alpha.charlie 11th Jun 2012 11:47

The payscales on ppjn are indeed correct.

The interview is a chat with 2 management pilots, it used to literally just be a chat but it has got a little bit more structured with a couple of groups of questions - a couple of technical, a couple of "give an example...", a couple of "how would you..." and so on. Have a good brush up on the airlines recent past and future plans and what are the big topics within the airline at the moment.

Expansion had been planned for a while but it has been accelerated to try to fill the void of BMIbaby.

No fixed pattern roster, all random but with a very good Scheduling Agreement as well as the ability to pick some of your days off (VIP) and ring-fence duties.

As for the 737's - doubt it! My money is on Airbus.

Monarch is a brilliant airline to work for, there are many changes going on within the airline at the moment and its a pretty exciting time to be here. Despite working max hours at the moment, I still haven't felt the same kind of tiredness that I did from 5 early 4-sector days.

Good luck to all who apply, especially those looking for the next step up the ladder!

Mungo Man 11th Jun 2012 21:46

In the advert linked to above it says:


Please note that at the moment there is a recruitment freeze and applications are not being accepted.
So are they actually recruiting, or filling up a hold pool (and if so what about people who are already in the pool) or neither?


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