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British Pilots : The fight back begins.

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British Pilots : The fight back begins.

Old 2nd Aug 2021, 09:25
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British Pilots : The fight back begins.

British pilots are being excluded from jobs in the United Kingdom by foreign airlines setting up bases in the United Kingdom and then subsequently only recruiting European Union Licensed crew. For example on the Indeed job board on the 31 July 2021 Lauda Europe part of Ryanair are advertising for Airbus Captains and First Officers for a Stansted base but to apply you must have an EASA Licence and an EU Medical Certificate. What is going on when in Essex in England in the United Kingdom a British ATPL issued by the the UK CAA is not even able to apply for work in our own country and were to get a chance of a flying job in Britain you need to have a foreign non British Licence. How has the CAA allowed this to come to pass ?

How would it roll if a British Airline established its main operating base in Dublin and tried to insist that only UK CAA Licenced pilots could apply for work in Ireland. Any attempt to do this would be physically stopped immediately and it is beyond belief that the British Government and the CAA have allowed foreign airlines and foreign crews to set up significant bases in the United Kingdom and allowed recruitment practices to develop that prevent British citizens for applying for work in their own country. This is nothing short of discrimination based on national origin.

Its time now for foreign airlines with their significant bases of operation in the United Kingdom to be required to have British AOC 's and for their United Kingdom based crews to have United Kingdom CAA Licences. An ICAO Licenced pilot arriving in the UAE is only required to sit a single air Law exam on arrival in the UAE in order to be issued with a GCAA ATPL valid for employment with Emirates or flydubai. A very simple process which contrasts to the nationally and racially discriminatory way EASA requires 14 written exams and a flight test to be passed in order to issue an EASA Licence based on an ICAO Licence.

British pilots we are simply being turned over here prevented from finding work in our own country by foreign companies employing only foreign licensed pilots while the EASA licensing authority deliberately makes it next to impossible for British pilots to get EASA Licences.

This situation has to be bought to a stop. I would like every British Licensed pilot to file a complaint with the Equalities Commission citing that we are being discriminated against on the basis of our national origin and to write to their MP. If the situation is not resolved then further steps will need to be considered.which should include a national campaign to get the British public to boycott foreign airlines with bases in the United Kingdom and who do not recruit pilots with British Licences.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 09:50
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How would it roll if a British Airline established its main operating base in Dublin and tried to insist that only UK CAA Licenced pilots could apply for work in Ireland. Any attempt to do this would be physically stopped immediately...
You mean stopped by the common sense that no UK AOC would open a base in the EU, as they could only operate flights to UK?

Its time now for foreign airlines with their significant bases of operation in the United Kingdom to be required to have British AOC 's and for their United Kingdom based crews to have United Kingdom CAA Licences.
That would require the rewriting of the EU-UK TCA. I doubt that will happen.

There's only one cause of all of this mess. And plenty of British pilots voted both for the cause and the party who implemented it. Time for some home truths.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 10:10
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I have written to my MP (Labour) and left him a voicemail on his Parliament voicemail, here is what I wrote:

Dear MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LOCATION

I left a voicemail for you. I am a constituent of yours based in LOCATION. By profession, I am an Airline Pilot. I like so many others have become unemployable due to Brexit because of the UK government’s complete mishandling of aviation related affairs.

Since Brexit, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has effectively null and voided our flying licenses meaning we can no longer operate aircraft on behalf of European carriers. Yes, UK nationals no longer have automatic employment rights to Europe but this is not the subject matter here. Allow me to explain…Our European licenses became "UK only" licenses overnight and we are now barred from flying aircraft we were happily doing so just 8 months ago even for European airlines with a presence (a base of operation) In the UK! Such operators are allowed to operate and expand their business in the UK. Though they can only employ those with UK working rights, they are still required to (by EASA) to only hire pilots with valid European licenses. The resulting situation is as follows:
  • If you are a European national with pre-settled status, you are employable by such companies in the UK
  • If you are a British or Irish national with a European license (for some reason you took the gamble to convert), you are also employable
  • If you are a British national with a UK license, you are not employable by such airlines.
    • Only an airline with a UK AOC (Air Operators Charter) can hire you (the same airlines that are downsizing or bleeding right now)
The week and ineffectual UK CAA has granted European license holders special approvals so that they can continue to fly UK registered aircraft. However, the opposite situation where UK pilot license holders are able to operate European aircraft is completely missing.

Robert Courts MP, Aviation and Martime Minister does not seem to acknowledge the gravity of the situation he's government has created and neither does our Transport Secretary, Grant Shapps. My ask from you today is to take this question to parliament and ask them why they have presided over such a terrible and one-way deal that locks British pilots out of jobs in their home country. Surely, it is within their power to threaten EASA to demand they reinstate equal rights or their (European license holder) pilots lose access to our job market?

Here is more from the pilot community:

Ryanair experienced pilot recruitment - UK licenses

Titan

U.K. parliamentary petition

EASA-to-UK pilot licence conversion

UK ATPL to EASA - moving on

Regards…
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 10:24
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The OP is tilting at the wrong windmill, to mix metaphors.

It has long been legal to base a foreign flagged plane in another country (including eg FAA, etc), and no amount of lobbying is going to change that.

Instead, pressure should be applied so that UK based employees and recruits are fully compliant with the right to work and live in the UK, and that recruiters don't use invalid excuses to recruit from abroad while there are unemployed British pilots. Also there are quite a number of UK based pilot employees who aren't even resident in the UK or hold citizenship - Afaiaa, there's no right for them to retain UK employment. There is a kind of Frontalier provision, but it's very limited. UK based eu operators can employ UK licenced pilots using validations (as indeed does Ryanair) The above line of lobbying is likely to have the unintended consequence of cancelling the validation scheme on both sides, with huge net loss of opportunities.

But that tired refrain, Brits voted for it, suck it up. Actually just 25% of the population did, (predominantly retired who are insulated from the repercussions and economic damage of Brexit and covid, to the cost of the working age population and pre voting age people who are bearing the costs of brexit, covid and of funding ballooning triple locked pensions, NHS and elderly social care)

Last edited by Sick; 2nd Aug 2021 at 10:37.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 10:30
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Can we stop talking about the past? None of us could've possibly known what the shower of that is the Brexit deal would've looked like. We're in this mess, so how about we keep it constructive and try to find a solution?
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 10:43
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I believe plenty people knew, but they were dismissed with "project fear" remarks.

Originally Posted by CW247 View Post
We're in this mess, so how about we keep it constructive and try to find a solution?
Campaign for rejoining the single market, which would not only give British pilots back their EASA licence, but also the right to live and work in the EU. Win-win?
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 11:00
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Home Truths

British citizens with British professional qualifications are being barred from applying for jobs in Great Britain by foreign companies in favour of workers with foreign qualifications. This has to stop or the simple home truth is that fuelled by long term structural unemployment this will lead to the most intense bitter and ultimately violent conflict.

This racial and national discrimination against British workers by foreign companies in the United Kingdom has to stop or the consequences will be horrific. I am looking for a historical parallel perhaps the way Uganda turned against and expelled it's Indian population for becoming overly commercially exclusive might illustrate.

Be aware British people will not stand for being banned from applying for jobs in Britain on the basis that they hold British qualifications. You are sowing the wind with this and you shall reap the whirlwind. This has to stop now !
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 11:01
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CW247

Yes we could, but as FlyingStone rightly says any such opinion was dismissed as ‘project fear”, sadly often by colleagues.

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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 11:04
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Completely agree!
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 11:13
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Nice thread title btw.
Good luck 👍🏻
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 11:19
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Paul Rice

An ICAO licensed pilot arriving in the UK (even one with a GCAA ATPL) is required to sit all 14 ATPL exams and a flight test in order to convert their license to a CAA one. So if the UK wants to make it hard for ICAO pilots to convert to a UK ATPL then you don't really have an argument when it is thrown back at you.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 11:23
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Discrimination against British People

This has nothing at all to do with the United Kingdoms relationship with Europe.

This is straightforward discrimination by foreign companies against British workers seeking work in Britain with British qualifications.

Nothing at all to do with Europe just straightforward ugly racial national discrimination.

That it is sanctioned by a European Agency EASA aided and supported by the weak CAA makes the betrayal of the British worker more likely to provoke a vigorous back lash.

Any airline that employees pilots in the United Kingdom and who refuses to employ British licensed pilots should face an immediate boycott.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 11:33
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How can one think that politicians can solve this issue, give me break. This bunch of moronic twits who are only interested in self ingratiating actions and loads of utter nonsense speak be bothered to even address this problem. They don't give a rats bottom for us the plebs. I have been very close to the political scene in the UK can honestly state they are reflected the closest by television series, "In the Thick of it".

No hope with these buffoons running the country, for their own benefit.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 11:45
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Completely Agree

"An ICAO licensed pilot arriving in the UK (even one with a GCAA ATPL) is required to sit all 14 ATPL exams and a flight test in order to convert their license to a CAA one. So if the UK wants to make it hard for ICAO pilots to convert to a UK ATPL then you don't really have an argument when it is thrown back at you"

You are absolutely right the CAA are supporting and assisting EASA with their discrimination against both British and all other ICAO pilots. The CAA are aiding and supporting the enemy.

All that is required to issue an ATPL from one state to another under ICAO is a local air Law differences exam. EASA is a nationally and racially discriminatory body operating in a protectionist way to protect the European super state and this complete dribble that all 14 ATPL exams and a flight test is required is nothing more than Nationalistic discrimination. Both the CAA and EASA should be expelled from ICAO for this nonsense.

It is a matter of personal shame that Britain with its long history of standing up to Fascism has a CAA which supports EASA National Discrimination and now is looking the other way when even its own citizens are being discriminated against by the EASA European super bully.

The CAA must understand we are an independent nation, we will not be discriminated against on racial or national grounds and will not tolerate British workers being discriminated against for holding British qualifications when seeking work in Britain. Equally as an open tolerant and fair minded country we welcome all ICAO licence holders to easily convert to UK CAA Licences.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 12:01
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If you think the British Government give even half of one single about UK aviation then you are deeply mistaken. I predict the G reg will very soon be a thing of the past.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 12:21
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CW247 Quick correction for your letter "weak" not "week"
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 12:21
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Grant Shapps is a lying scumbag, narcissist who has been promoted well past his ability for the simple expedient of supporting Johnson in Brexit. He is totally incapable of an original thought and has zero time for aviation as it would clash with the Governments sham acclamation of 'green credentials'. This was demonstrated perfectly when he attended a hole in the ground whilst the UK aviation industry was lobbying parliament. He demanded 'respect' during one clash with a constituent, I respect those who serve this country, i.e. the armed forces, police, NHS etc. I do not respect snout in the trough self centred politicians who are way, way out of their depth and only in the position for their own self gain.

There was time and opportunity to sort this out but that would have meant work and a reorganisation of the CAA who were, as any of us who have dealt with them, utterly useless under national procedures, JAR and EASA.

The UK aviation industry is sadly screwed and neither of the political parties who have a rats chance of power give a damn.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 12:37
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Well how about if the UK joined a block of countries with a reasonably similar if not identical views on democracy, the rule of law, workers protections, the rights of individuals and freedom of movement for trade and people? Obviously that would exclude countries like China, Russia, Brazil, a large chunk of Africa and Asia and sometimes the USA if it elects a narcissist as Prez. If the UK could somehow figure out what remaining countries are most like it (and preferably geographically nearby) then it could probably solve the OP's problem.

Alternatively the UK can just trade and fly to it's empire.
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 12:57
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Paul Rice

😂 Get a grip on reality!
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Old 2nd Aug 2021, 13:52
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Consol

Nice idea! The problem is you can't trust Johnny Foreigner. They have no culture and their food/wine/beer is crap. They'll just come over here to nick all our jobs. They'll probably nick all our benefits and our women too. I say British blokes for British jobs. Boris is right.

Gets coat....
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