British Pilots : The fight back begins.
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Transient
The vitriol on here is off the scale. Many of my colleagues hold EASA licences and commute into the UK to fly G reg aircraft. They have just 16 months to apply for a UK License to continue flying our G reg aircraft. The don’t have to give up their EASA licences. Many of them are awaiting transfers to continental Europe. To a person they are no better or worse at operating. However most are bilingual or trilingual and thus l consider them a more “ rounded” product than l am. My biggest regret is not learning a certain European language when living there.
The biggest threat to UK jobs is The PM and his bizarre travel restrictions. My airline will only survive because the UK AOC is being carried by our Europe operation. This summer is heading for disaster because this UK Government are making travel deliberately complex with a view to getting the proles spending in country. This is not a health issue anymore it is political.
The biggest threat to UK jobs is The PM and his bizarre travel restrictions. My airline will only survive because the UK AOC is being carried by our Europe operation. This summer is heading for disaster because this UK Government are making travel deliberately complex with a view to getting the proles spending in country. This is not a health issue anymore it is political.
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 38
From: UK
For the sake of semantics on the thread title, it’s not a fight back at all is it? U.K. aviation professionals, not just pilots, are being shafted by this Vote Leave government for the sake of ideology.
You can say “I told you so” until blue in the face, but this doesn’t exactly make it any better does it? I didn’t vote for it, but it is amazing how many of said aviation professionals voted for Brexit despite such warnings. And we all suffer as a result.
As for perpetual travel restrictions being the biggest threat, I can’t agree more. The U.K. I saw was only at 16% of previous 2019 levels whereas big swathes of Europe are well above 50%. Even Eurocontrol are saying that the last month was about the best case scenario for them.. but hey, vaccines vaccines vaccines… EMA bad!
You can say “I told you so” until blue in the face, but this doesn’t exactly make it any better does it? I didn’t vote for it, but it is amazing how many of said aviation professionals voted for Brexit despite such warnings. And we all suffer as a result.
As for perpetual travel restrictions being the biggest threat, I can’t agree more. The U.K. I saw was only at 16% of previous 2019 levels whereas big swathes of Europe are well above 50%. Even Eurocontrol are saying that the last month was about the best case scenario for them.. but hey, vaccines vaccines vaccines… EMA bad!
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
The whole issue of the CAAs relationship with EASA, the EU licenses etc is to a great extent irrelevant ATM but makes for a handy distraction from the massive problems for the UK aviation industry that are being generated closer to home.
Last edited by wiggy; 4th August 2021 at 07:53.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
myuseraccount, could you reference the statement "EASA offered membership to the UK without voting rights but with ECJ jurisdiction for disputes ( like Switzerland / Iceland / Liechtenstein ) but refused", please? It is the opposite of what I was told.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: FL450
I am afraid I have come to the unavoidable conclusion that this UK left wing tory government are quite deliberately doing everything they can to change the demographics of the country
Right at the beginning of the Brexit negotiations the UK announced that every EU citizen in UK could stay. This, without any request for reciprication? I was one of one and a half million Brits living in EU land with complete uncertainty for 4 years not knowing where our futures lie? Even now it was left to individual nations to decide what to accept.
Why would a UK government continueously put the interests of foreigners above the interests of their own nationals?
And now they have done it again. Other EASA issued licences permitted to operate G reg without a reciprical arrangement? It has to be deliberate?
I say that as it cannot be possible that our peers are that that stupid and useless? Or?
Right at the beginning of the Brexit negotiations the UK announced that every EU citizen in UK could stay. This, without any request for reciprication? I was one of one and a half million Brits living in EU land with complete uncertainty for 4 years not knowing where our futures lie? Even now it was left to individual nations to decide what to accept.
Why would a UK government continueously put the interests of foreigners above the interests of their own nationals?
And now they have done it again. Other EASA issued licences permitted to operate G reg without a reciprical arrangement? It has to be deliberate?
I say that as it cannot be possible that our peers are that that stupid and useless? Or?
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 98
Likes: 40
From: An Island
Joined: Feb 2002
Aviation Qualifications: AME
Posts: 4,182
Likes: 1,116
From: UK
I think Kelly Hopper has stumbled into the wrong thread. 😁
As for EASA membership, I still have my letter from the Minister in charge at the time (name escapes me as it was about four years ago) reassuring me that it is the UK government's intention to remain in EASA. Rees-Mogg and the rest of the hard line EU haters scuppered that when they rejected any authority from the ECJ. 🙄
As for EASA membership, I still have my letter from the Minister in charge at the time (name escapes me as it was about four years ago) reassuring me that it is the UK government's intention to remain in EASA. Rees-Mogg and the rest of the hard line EU haters scuppered that when they rejected any authority from the ECJ. 🙄
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 368
Likes: 21
From: North of the M4
It was the intention of the government right up until April last year to remain in EASA and this position was supported by the CAA and industry. This position on EASA remained for nearly a year through the Johnson premiership and after Johnson appointed Shapps as Transport Sec. It wasn't until April last year that Shapps let slip that the UK would leave EASA. So why the sudden change in position when it was OK for Johnson and Shapps prior to this point? I think it is purely down to the snap election victory giving Johnson and his masters in the ERG the green light to do whatever they wanted no matter what the damage under the cover of more "will of the people". Full throttle ideological hard Brexit.
Because they have become very clever at running government through focus groups and Twitter, Shapps has never actually been put on the spot and explain his decisions. All we have had is a corny line from a DfT spokeswoman - remaining in EASA is not compatible with the UK having genuine economic and political independence. Which means Baker, Mogg, Francois etc just cannot bear the ECJ being involved in anything and as a result, we will all have to suffer.
The great Brexit irony is that we now have to comply with far more EU laws than we did when we were in the EU.
Because they have become very clever at running government through focus groups and Twitter, Shapps has never actually been put on the spot and explain his decisions. All we have had is a corny line from a DfT spokeswoman - remaining in EASA is not compatible with the UK having genuine economic and political independence. Which means Baker, Mogg, Francois etc just cannot bear the ECJ being involved in anything and as a result, we will all have to suffer.
The great Brexit irony is that we now have to comply with far more EU laws than we did when we were in the EU.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 368
Likes: 21
From: North of the M4
Well said FDR 1.
Let's also not forget that the decision to leave EASA was probably made in the first quarter of last year, just as we were entering the first Covid wave and first lockdown when all hell was breaking loose and it was already becoming apparent that a quarter of UK pilot jobs were at risk. The ERG crazies saw a smoke-screen and just went for it. Hardest possible damaging Brexit was all they were after and the CAA and DfT were well aware that this licencing problem would arise but did nothing.
If current trends continue and more and more UK based pilots are required to have EASA licences then the ECJ will continue to have a say in UK domestic affairs as it will be the final arbiter in any dispute between these UK workers and EASA. Another Brexit own goal.
Let's also not forget that the decision to leave EASA was probably made in the first quarter of last year, just as we were entering the first Covid wave and first lockdown when all hell was breaking loose and it was already becoming apparent that a quarter of UK pilot jobs were at risk. The ERG crazies saw a smoke-screen and just went for it. Hardest possible damaging Brexit was all they were after and the CAA and DfT were well aware that this licencing problem would arise but did nothing.
If current trends continue and more and more UK based pilots are required to have EASA licences then the ECJ will continue to have a say in UK domestic affairs as it will be the final arbiter in any dispute between these UK workers and EASA. Another Brexit own goal.
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 38
From: UK
And when the transition period ended, we were in the grip of the second wave and 1000s dying every day. A sensible government would’ve extended the transition period, but no we got a fudged deal on Christmas Eve.
This Vote Leave government have no other intention, other to disrupt every industry (look at freight, not just aviation) for their pet project. For them, Covid is disguising a lot at the moment, but the chickens may now be coming home to roost in the next few months.
The people calling it “Project Fear” will still be calling it that whatever people say… fingers will gladly stay in ears, just like Trump supporters in the US.
This Vote Leave government have no other intention, other to disrupt every industry (look at freight, not just aviation) for their pet project. For them, Covid is disguising a lot at the moment, but the chickens may now be coming home to roost in the next few months.
The people calling it “Project Fear” will still be calling it that whatever people say… fingers will gladly stay in ears, just like Trump supporters in the US.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 649
Likes: 74
From: uk
Simply ask for the CAA to change their position in this and obviously there will be other non beneficial counter reaccions. The current arrangement is only a temporary one and EASA can not trust the UK CAA past that point.
Also bear in mind that it is British license holders that are currently in this situation, this includes plenty of EU citizens. And there are also plenty of British EASA license holders benefiting from reduced competition at the recruitment stage giving them an advantage over their compratiots.
Also bear in mind that it is British license holders that are currently in this situation, this includes plenty of EU citizens. And there are also plenty of British EASA license holders benefiting from reduced competition at the recruitment stage giving them an advantage over their compratiots.
Last edited by eagle21; 5th August 2021 at 07:24.
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
From: UK
I think the main point the OP is making is that these jobs are UK based and due to not having an EASA licence he can't even apply.... the right to live and work in the UK is totally separate from the requirement for an EASA licence for these jobs. Any company basing it's pilots in the UK should be forced to at least accept UK licences. Don't forget we didn't all vote for Brexit. Yes, there are consequences from Brexit but not being able to apply for a flying job BASED IN THE UK should not be one of them. Anywhere else in Europe, well so be it, that's what the majority voted for but here in the UK, this should not be happening, it's a ridiculous situation that should have been sorted a long time ago by Boris and co.
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 265
Likes: 164
From: Sunnydale
Firstly I was replying to the poster above mine ranting on the airlines insisting on the airlines requiring the right to work in the U.K. they do.
as to the point on licensing. As things stand it is a requirement to have an EASA licence to fly an EASA registered aircraft no matter where it’s based. So the argument needs to be requiring U.K. based aircraft to be on the U.K. register. But that’s not going to happen. as has been pointed out many times the transport secretary’s own puddle jumper is N reg yet based in the U.K. admittedly that’s not for commercial use but you get the message.
as to the point on licensing. As things stand it is a requirement to have an EASA licence to fly an EASA registered aircraft no matter where it’s based. So the argument needs to be requiring U.K. based aircraft to be on the U.K. register. But that’s not going to happen. as has been pointed out many times the transport secretary’s own puddle jumper is N reg yet based in the U.K. admittedly that’s not for commercial use but you get the message.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
From: Arakis
It’s not going to be resolved short term because these politicians don’t know or handle the pandemic In The one hand and looking at commercial knock on effects on the other. Holding a uk license one time was envy of the world but now no advantages in having it whatsoever..
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,320
Likes: 102
From: IRS NAV ONLY
MPPCAG
EASA licence is required to operate aircraft registered in EASA member states. UK can't mandate that aircraft based in the UK be G-registered and operated on UK AOC for UK-EU routes, as that would be a violation of the traffic rights defined in the UK-EU TCA.
Just as British AOC holders can base G-regs in the EU (that will require a UK licence from 2023 onwards), similarly EASA AOC holders can base EU-regs in the UK.
EASA licence is required to operate aircraft registered in EASA member states. UK can't mandate that aircraft based in the UK be G-registered and operated on UK AOC for UK-EU routes, as that would be a violation of the traffic rights defined in the UK-EU TCA.
Just as British AOC holders can base G-regs in the EU (that will require a UK licence from 2023 onwards), similarly EASA AOC holders can base EU-regs in the UK.