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British Pilots : The fight back begins.

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British Pilots : The fight back begins.

Old 2nd Aug 2021, 22:17
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: europe
Age: 36
Posts: 93
First off, I must say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread.
Something about chickens coming home to roost.

​​​Anyway, not to change the subject and all. However I would just like to point out that being British is not a race, but rather a nationally. The key here is that British subjects tend to be caucasians. Ironically the same race as that (majority population) of EASA member states.
Yes I know oh, it's all very complicated.
But I have my doubts that Easa is racially motivated.
All I can say, is that I'm happy that I SOLI out before the deadline. And to all those whinging about all this. Your time might be better spent converting over to an EASA Licence.

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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 04:24
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ziltoidia... indeed'd.
Posts: 400
Paul Rice Most probably I'll get banned for what I'm going to say, but here it goes anyway:

As an European pilot I have been looked down by British pilots all my life. I have worked for a UK Operator and, during company induction and sitting in a class with other pilots, being thrown to the face by the instructor that I was a foreigner, and nobody said anything. And you know what? I ate my balls, decided not to play the discrimination or racial card (even though, as pointed above, we are all the same race in the UK and Europe), worked hard, studied, learnt a whole lot from the huge number of amazing aviation professionals that there are in the UK, finally getting the respect of everyone around me.

My professional life has taken me around, I have now 4 licenses, on my way to 5. All of the them involved studying ATPL, doing initial Class I medicals, and preparing for ATPL skill test, and all of them brought me a job.

I just don't recognize the moaning from your post from my time flying the UK. I can't recall anyone there being as childish and spoiled as you are showing. There is an airline offering you a job at home if you get EASA license? FFS, go and take the exams! It is not the first time I have seen a job offer in Europe, but only for FAA licenses as the airplane was N registered, so don't create a global conspiracy against British pilots where there is none.

Generally speaking, British pilots are arrogant, but goddam if they don't have enough reasons to be so with their skills and working ethics, I think you can be better than this.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 06:11
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Neither here or there
Posts: 250
Iggy you are another example of a mightier than though obnoxious little man who refuses to see that there are hundreds of British born pilots who did not vote for Brexit. They were not allowed to SOLI prior to Brexit as a condition of their employment. I was one.

This thread has become a platform for people like you to insult us. Makes you feel big I bet?

Right now, I assure you the majority of UK license holders are busy trying to obtain an EASA license again but the waiting times are horrific. Vast majority of NAAs are absolutely useless when it comes to progressing things. There is one that stands out as a shining example but they are being inundated with hundreds of applications. And no you don't need to take 14 exams!
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 06:33
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 3,327
Half the threads on here used to be about how to SOLI to EASA. I'll bet there are more Brits with EASA licences than Europeans with UK licences.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 07:14
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,322
Originally Posted by CW247 View Post
This is incredible. No doubt you guys on your high horse right now are in jobs? How the heck did this thread go from being a genuine plea and call for action to becoming a dig at Brexiteer pilots?
Personal opinion : Because of the opening plea/claim that somebody made that nobody could have seen this could possibly happen….followed by the claims somebody else made that the present situation was all the nasty EUs fault - The first is nonsense and the second is also nonsense straight out of the Brexiters playbook.

The Brexit decision made it much more difficult for many of those “British born”, as you put it, to live and work within the EU. As a result I and many others have already spent the last five years jumping through hoops and spending the time needed trying to protect ourselves and our family’s futures from the consequences of that vote. The process has been time consuming stressful and expensive so frankly sympathy for those that caused this is in very limited supply, certainly in this household, regardless of whether they are an airline pilot or are in some other line of work.

I do genuinely feel sorry for those in the UK caught up in this who were perhaps to young to vote or voted against, but I have zero sympathy for any of the flag waving drum banging supposed patriots now looking for my support.

If they stopped sloping shoulders and realized they need to own this then I and others might find the ability to be a bit more supportive of them…until then..

Last edited by wiggy; 3rd Aug 2021 at 07:45.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 07:42
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ziltoidia... indeed'd.
Posts: 400
Yo CW247 wassup!

No, I'm not a little man, pretty much the opposite to my disgrace. My AME keeps telling me to drop some weight or else.

And, if you would get off your horse, you'd realize that, actually, I'm doing the opposite to insulting you guys. Read again my post, please. I think you guys can overcome any agency trying to shaft you, or any airline imposing unreasonable policies on your license. Just do exactly as the hundreds of pilots you mention in your post: apply for a shiny brand new EASA license, and show the finger to whoever got you into this mess.

Coming here in tears doesn't help, and doesn't represent the British character I've got to known, either.

And just to let you know, I'm in the middle of acquiring a license, and, one year into the process, still no license in sight. Chaos and mayhem happens every where in the world, not just in Europe.

Last edited by iggy; 3rd Aug 2021 at 07:47. Reason: Saluted the wrong dude...
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 07:56
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Somewhere cold
Posts: 39
I'm getting out of this industry. The agenda is fairly clear for those that are prepared to face up to their own cognitive dissonance and Stockholm Syndrome (as opposed to genning up on yet another HPL exam).

World Economic Forum 'Great Reset', Build Back Better bleated by major Western orientated political figures around the world in syncro, 'Net Zero' the new buzzphrase. W-patterns from outside the UK serving these isles is where I see it going, maybe some regional operators (Loganair) surviving. Cabinet model of government is in place; writing to your MP merely serves as some sort of light therapy for the confused and disenchanted. No meaningful opposition to the existential crisis our national industry faces - in fact the most destructive mismanagement choices possible (and why the silence from airline management boards?) - No effective resistence either from BALPA or any of the main political parties. BALPA censoring people found summarily guilty of wrongthink, ffs.

Yet people are so heavily invested they refuse to sit back and take the macro view. I understand this, heavily invested quite literally in some cases. But, sit back, do your FORDEC, GRADE, DODAR or whatever you need to.

Do consider that there may be an overall unpalatable agenda, which you are not being served up in mainstream media.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 08:20
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,322

I’m not sure I buy into some of the global motives or things like the Great Reset for that matter, but hard to disagree with at least some of that.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 08:48
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,090
BALPA will be completely useless. Always are.

As for the CAA, they might take notice in a few years when they see most newly qualified pilots in the UK applying for EASA licences. Only when their revenue stream is affected will they do something.

I considered converting my licence to a EASA one last year, but the CAA told me at the time they couldn’t guarantee I didn’t have to do the 14 exams to get the UK one back, since at the time nothing had been decided. So I couldn’t take that chance.

At the moment I will look into jumping through the hoops to do what is necessary to get a EASA one. But I think I’ll draw a line if it means I have to do a skills test in a 747-400 sim (which of course is now a completely useless rating).

In the meantime, I guess I’ll wait until Jet2 open their recruitment.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 08:56
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: The wrong timezone
Posts: 254
EASA offered membership to the UK without voting rights but with ECJ jurisdiction for disputes ( like Switzerland / Iceland / Liechtenstein ) but refused.
Correct - The ECJ has intervened in only one aviation case in 38 years but this was the main reason that pilots were sacrificed to the Brexit Gods. Ideology, pure and simple. But as we keep being reminded - it's what people voted for.

As a personal perspective, I can count on one hand the number of colleagues I've met in the last 6 years or so who haven't been pro-Brexit, usually in an extreme way. Maybe I was unlucky, but it seems hard now to have sympathy despite the huge disadvantage this has caused me personally. I've already lost one job offer because of it. What a ludicrous mess, but remember as someone already mentioned : "get over it, you won".
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 10:13
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Frozen South
Posts: 93
Having been the victim of proven historical discrimination, I found two things really stood out for me during the whole experience. First - at the time, there was a strong, concerted effort to undermine the case for discrimination - this was orchestrated by those who profit from it. Don't be deterred. Second - get the names of those who reject your application based upon the discrimination, this will be useful in the legal action to follow. If not now, in the years to come.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 10:26
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: The wrong timezone
Posts: 254
It's only as discriminatory as US carriers requiring a FAA Licence. I don't see any reason why European airlines should be made to do extra work to accommodate people from a country that has decided to give itself a collective knee to the groin.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 11:56
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 210
Falling Penguin

Excellent post. However, many will refuse to see/believe/ accept what is really going on in the world right now. When it is openly said in the Word Economic Forum that we will all have less and we will be happier for it, it amazes me that people don’t catch on. Only the elite will be exempt from the rules, allowed to thrive and rule. The rest of us will just have to be content to survive, not thrive
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 14:11
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 671
I am astonished at the level of vitriol and venom spouted here against those who voted for Brexit (actually not me if you are interested although it was close) . They include ‘morons’, ‘tits’, ‘arrogant’, ‘sinking in your own ’. Basically you should be embarrassed and ashamed of yourselves; hard to believe that you hold atpl’s or have the intelligence for aeronautical decision making and mature, responsible behaviour. It is probably an internet thing; cowardly attacks from behind a keyboard. And by the way, a special mention for the poster that claimed that a brexiteer was a ‘tit’ , I think I work for the same airline as you. If so, I can tell you that a large swathe of TREs and training managers voted for Brexit. Feel free to call them a tit to their face when you turn up your LPC. No? I didn’t think so. We live in a democratic society and the vote was for Brexit so live with it. Back to the post. Leaving EASA was a mistake. In this thread it has been conflated with leaving the EU. They are not the same. The resultant Alice in Wonderland scenario is that on Dec31 a B737 pilot could fly an EI (other EASA states are available) B737 but not on Jan1. No matter how many hours on type or training qualifications. The fact that the U.K. CAA are allowing European EASA licence holders to continue flying on G registered airlines and with no reciprocity is quite obviously unfair and laced with political spite and opportunism. Hopefully common sense will return and mutual recognition of equivalent qualifications will be reinstated. I flew with many Europeans in various British airlines and I was delighted to do so. Please dial down the anger and insults, it is embarrassing on a supposed professional forum.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 14:23
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 80
Posts: 1,109
The Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) was established in 1970 to apply joint certification standards for all European Civil Aviation Conference (ECAC) countries. It drew upon a lot of UK expertise, it was strongly supported by the UK and was a great step forward:-

EASA, established in 2002, included the JAA and added more regulatory functions. It was created by the EU with widespread industry support:-

When the UK decided to leave the EU it could have remained a member of EASA but, instead, for foolish ideological reasons, the government decided to leave despite being offered the option (like Switzerland) of continued membership. This was against strong industry advice:-

Those who voted for Brexit and those who have supported the current Conservative party have only themselves to blame for the current problems now facing, not only British pilots, but the whole UK aviation industry:-

I now live in France (therefore many will say I am bound to be biased) but, viewing my country from afar, I am greatly saddened by what I see happening and even more so for those younger pilots who will now have their careers adversly affected, a problem that has been foisted upon them by those who have supported the current government.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 14:26
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: EU
Posts: 537

No thanks, I have no interests in mutual recognition between EASA and the UK CAA. Not a single advantage on my side.

Trying to play the discrimination card on the request of EASA licenses (not EU citizenship, just a license) is laughable, even more the empty threat of "repercussions".
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 15:39
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: up north
Posts: 146

I totally agree with you. But you must also recognise that, if you legitimate somebody to give you a straight kick in the balls, then you cannot complain about the pain it causes. That is exactly what happened with Brexit. Everything was largely predictable. Not only in the aviation business.
Now you have to play with your broken toy, that you've bought with your own will.
There is no common sense in politics. Look at bojo agenda and deal with that.
I feel sorry for the many ex colleagues that are suffering due to this, but i feel no simpathy for those who voted out. They wanted it.
About LPC stuff, politics should stay outside the sim.

Last edited by Giuff; 3rd Aug 2021 at 16:17.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 16:18
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 988
Agree with most of that. I think the causal factor behind even the most successful and professional people voting for brexit is the insidious British exceptionalism which has been instilled in anyone born (probably) before the mid 90’s, pretty much from birth. It’s so deeply engrained that mistrust of foreign institutions is an autonomous reflex. The fact that EASAland had seen a heavy influx of CAA brains doesn’t even matter, if it ain’t in Britain it ain’t trustworthy.

Sadly we are in a mess of our own making, so I can fully understand and sympathise with those others at their wits end who feel compelled to use derogatory remarks. It’s time to be pragmatic however you voted, but please stop continuing to try to load the blame on the EU/EASA - it’s tiresome nonsense and only serves to nullify your argument/agenda.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 16:20
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: up north
Posts: 146
Spot on. Go on linkedin and have fun then.
Nonsense anti EU posts all around.
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Old 3rd Aug 2021, 22:02
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 671
Greetings Giuff! Thanks for broadly supporting my view. Without giving too much away and to clarify: I am a TRE with a well known uk airline. Just to clarify: I would never be anything other than fair to a candidate / trainee in the LPC scenario regardless of political views etc.It’s called professionalism. In the same vein I do not call colleagues tits for their political opinions either behind their backs via the internet or to their faces. Cheers.
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