BA pilots vote to strike
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,726
Likes: 103
From: The Winchester
As far as your idea of putting pay to one side and now opening discussions about all the other gripes (and I’d agree with everything on your list)...if this current dispute does come unravelled over the next few days we need to ask ourselves exactly what leverage are BALPA going to be left with hold the line on all other aspects of T&Cs?
For example if BA now turns around and says, actually, no we won’t enter into debate about rostering, it’s legal so JSS stays as it is, quite what credible weapons have BALPA now got left in the arsenal?
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: England
I do not see continuing strikes achieving anything. The issues we face and complain about are not pay, let’s accept the pay deal and then open up discussions separately regarding the real issues that matter. Rostering, fatigue, pilot establishment, report times after leave for example.
Hopefully those who took action get their staff travel back but hands up we all knew what we were doing when, if we decided to take action.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Uk
I got to 8.5 with 4% year 1, 3.5% year 2 and the 1% sign on bonus....ok that’s a one off, just realised that. 8.5% in jan still stands with 7.5% increase on the basic.
I don’t think anyone has been hung out to dry. We knew we would loose staff travel, we knew we would loose pay. The amount lost I agree needs to be fought. I assumed it would be a days pay at the daily rate for the month.
I don’t think a strike again will work. Every FO says they can’t afford to strike again with how much they lost.
Hopefully nobody is hung out to dry.
I don’t think anyone has been hung out to dry. We knew we would loose staff travel, we knew we would loose pay. The amount lost I agree needs to be fought. I assumed it would be a days pay at the daily rate for the month.
I don’t think a strike again will work. Every FO says they can’t afford to strike again with how much they lost.
Hopefully nobody is hung out to dry.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: Germany
I got to 8.5 with 4% year 1, 3.5% year 2 and the 1% sign on bonus....ok that’s a one off, just realised that. 8.5% in jan still stands with 7.5% increase on the basic.
I don’t think anyone has been hung out to dry. We knew we would loose staff travel, we knew we would loose pay. The amount lost I agree needs to be fought. I assumed it would be a days pay at the daily rate for the month.
I don’t think a strike again will work. Every FO says they can’t afford to strike again with how much they lost.
Hopefully nobody is hung out to dry.
I don’t think anyone has been hung out to dry. We knew we would loose staff travel, we knew we would loose pay. The amount lost I agree needs to be fought. I assumed it would be a days pay at the daily rate for the month.
I don’t think a strike again will work. Every FO says they can’t afford to strike again with how much they lost.
Hopefully nobody is hung out to dry.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
From: UK
Wait for what? The momentum that we had is lost and BALPA has shown its hand to BA. It’s clear the BACC doesn’t want to strike anymore and even if we vote this deal down, by the time we get a vote, the vote comes out and BALPA presents it, our mandate will have probably ran out. It’s clear that strikers are being thrown under the bus, just to get the exact same deal we already turned down! With the only change that we have now also lost our staff travel for a year. Good going.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 45
Likes: 4
From: South Coast
Union’s modus operandi has been:
1. Union shows strong opposition to change, but after initially seeming to present strong opposition ultimately recommends changes only half as bad as they were going to be and claims a victory. (Airline management 101)
2. Union allows, even promotes a strike to show how strong they are (but only when they sense that pilots may believe that the union credibility has been brought into question) but then let ACAS intervene to provide what is ultimately recommended as binding arbitration.
Either way Airline wins.
I’m sorry but I’m a cynical old git but I’ve seen all of this before. At my airline pilots set up a credible alternative (with approaching 75% of the pilot membership) but the management have spent years putting obstacles in the way to avoid ever having to deal with it. Makes you wonder why.
Ladies and gentlemen you have been truly thrown under a bus and unfortunately it does not surprise me in the least.
My vague hope is that a majority of the Rottweilers have turned.
Excuse my being vague, but litigation is a real threat.
1. Union shows strong opposition to change, but after initially seeming to present strong opposition ultimately recommends changes only half as bad as they were going to be and claims a victory. (Airline management 101)
2. Union allows, even promotes a strike to show how strong they are (but only when they sense that pilots may believe that the union credibility has been brought into question) but then let ACAS intervene to provide what is ultimately recommended as binding arbitration.
Either way Airline wins.
I’m sorry but I’m a cynical old git but I’ve seen all of this before. At my airline pilots set up a credible alternative (with approaching 75% of the pilot membership) but the management have spent years putting obstacles in the way to avoid ever having to deal with it. Makes you wonder why.
Ladies and gentlemen you have been truly thrown under a bus and unfortunately it does not surprise me in the least.
My vague hope is that a majority of the Rottweilers have turned.
Excuse my being vague, but litigation is a real threat.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 954
Likes: 64
From: england
The only way the pilots can win this (and it isn’t really a battle, just a way of forcing a decent amount of money out of the employer), is to do a SW trains and shut the airline down for a month. Call it 4 weeks unpaid leave, or a firebreak. I think many people would fancy December off. It is pointless doing a few days here or there. Close it down for a month and enjoy being at home. It may make you realise what an unhealthy lifestyle this is when you get 30 nights sleep in your own bed with home cooked food and a chance to spend quality time with loved ones and friends, rather than the faux life we spend at work. What have we got to lose?
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 352
Likes: 1
From: on a beach
The only way the pilots can win this (and it isn’t really a battle, just a way of forcing a decent amount of money out of the employer), is to do a SW trains and shut the airline down for a month. Call it 4 weeks unpaid leave, or a firebreak. I think many people would fancy December off. It is pointless doing a few days here or there. Close it down for a month and enjoy being at home. It may make you realise what an unhealthy lifestyle this is when you get 30 nights sleep in your own bed with home cooked food and a chance to spend quality time with loved ones and friends, rather than the faux life we spend at work. What have we got to lose?
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 2
From: Europe
The asymmetry advantage enjoyed by the employer is not by accident.
Western economies have gradually eroded any semblance of a "new deal" and the industrial climate ensures outcomes that the corporate political donors are happy with.
As a result real wages have fallen in most industries and where resistance was encountered globalisaiton allowed outsourcing of entire industry from cars to all sorts of manufacturing.
To maintain living standards one either chose their parents well or increased the debt levels.
That most of the western economies have the personal debt levels they do is the result.
Withdrawing labour against an adversary with deep pockets is a tricky strategy.
Watching this unfold it is a surprise that BALPA had not correctly anticipated the corporate response.
Western economies have gradually eroded any semblance of a "new deal" and the industrial climate ensures outcomes that the corporate political donors are happy with.
As a result real wages have fallen in most industries and where resistance was encountered globalisaiton allowed outsourcing of entire industry from cars to all sorts of manufacturing.
To maintain living standards one either chose their parents well or increased the debt levels.
That most of the western economies have the personal debt levels they do is the result.
Withdrawing labour against an adversary with deep pockets is a tricky strategy.
Watching this unfold it is a surprise that BALPA had not correctly anticipated the corporate response.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,726
Likes: 103
From: The Winchester
That said, I very very much agree with the thrust of your post..
Last edited by wiggy; 17th November 2019 at 13:23.
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 2
From: Europe
There are two sides out there and only one playing cricket.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 165
Likes: 6
From: Europe
Is that it? The same offer is now accepted?
BALPA to recommend acceptance.............
https://www.theguardian.com/business...pay-settlement
95% voted in favour of action, 2 days of strike.
Striking pilots lose Staff Travel privileges.
No increase in pay offered.
No Profit Share.
........and BALPA think this merits acceptance?
https://www.theguardian.com/business...pay-settlement
95% voted in favour of action, 2 days of strike.
Striking pilots lose Staff Travel privileges.
No increase in pay offered.
No Profit Share.
........and BALPA think this merits acceptance?
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: United Kingdom
BALPA to recommend acceptance.............
https://www.theguardian.com/business...pay-settlement
95% voted in favour of action, 2 days of strike.
Striking pilots lose Staff Travel privileges.
No increase in pay offered.
No Profit Share.
........and BALPA think this merits acceptance?
https://www.theguardian.com/business...pay-settlement
95% voted in favour of action, 2 days of strike.
Striking pilots lose Staff Travel privileges.
No increase in pay offered.
No Profit Share.
........and BALPA think this merits acceptance?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,726
Likes: 103
From: The Winchester
I think we need to wait and see the full details and maybe find out (if we ever do) what was being threatened if the pilots had walked out again but initially it's disappointing to say the least.
BA BALPA is going to lose members, that's for sure, and listening to some conversations/reading some thoughts last night it could well cost BA some pilots - certainly some of the younger cohort are talking about commands, command pay, and whether a career at BA makes economic sense anymore (if it ever did for them)
Elsewhere (?DEP thread) I mentioned the possibility of this dispute ending badly for the Union. If asked today then using a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is complete destruction of the Union, 5 is neutral, and 10 is the Union winning hands down ATM I'm finding it difficult to give BALPA more than 3 out of 10 ...
BTW having gone through the last BACC bulletin I'm struggling to find anything that ties in with the Guardian claim that:
Anyone clue me in on that, because I can't see any mention of improvement in official comms?
BA BALPA is going to lose members, that's for sure, and listening to some conversations/reading some thoughts last night it could well cost BA some pilots - certainly some of the younger cohort are talking about commands, command pay, and whether a career at BA makes economic sense anymore (if it ever did for them)
Elsewhere (?DEP thread) I mentioned the possibility of this dispute ending badly for the Union. If asked today then using a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is complete destruction of the Union, 5 is neutral, and 10 is the Union winning hands down ATM I'm finding it difficult to give BALPA more than 3 out of 10 ...
BTW having gone through the last BACC bulletin I'm struggling to find anything that ties in with the Guardian claim that:
The deal also offers improvements to working conditions, including rosters.
Last edited by wiggy; 23rd November 2019 at 06:27.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
From: Amsterdam
You’re being generous wiggy. This is complete capitulation. The union spinning of the proposed disruption agreement is shameful. Having handed over the Crown Jewels without a whimper, they will now come for the last few remaining trimmings. All west coast will be 3 day trips. Next will be working to easa crewing limits. 2 crew YVR, SEA etc.
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: Onboard
Elsewhere (?DEP thread) I mentioned the possibility of this dispute ending badly for the Union. If asked today then using a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is complete destruction of the Union, 5 is neutral, and 10 is the Union winning hands down ATM I'm finding it difficult to give BALPA more than 3 out of 10 ...
The Union was under serious existential threat from the moment an inexperienced militant bunch of reps were installed by a proportion of the membership who believed, if only the table had been banged harder in previous negotiations we would be in a much better place now. With the associated false narrative that newer members had somehow been sold down the river by a previous ‘compliant’ BACC!! So here we now are! A union on the brink of extinction.
Congratulations!
It’s now pretty obvious the previous bunch deserve more respect for their experience and their ‘craft’?
From September 2018 the resultant disappointment was depressingly inevitable. Either the membership would get a strike... and be disappointed. Or they wouldn’t get a strike... and be disappointed. It is important to realise, the error here wasn’t a mishandled strike. It was the mistaken beliefs that led to striking in the first place.
Some thought the threat of more militancy would deliver a better pay deal.... It didn’t
Some thought the threat of balloting would deliver a better pay deal. .... It didn’t
Some thought balloting would deliver a better pay deal. .... It didn’t
Some thought a powerful result would make BA blink. .... It didn’t
Some thought announcing dates would have BA quaking in their boots. .... It didn’t
Some thought mounting a ‘successful’ strike would bring BA to it’s knees. .....It didn’t
Some STILL think only more strike action will deliver a better pay deal!!
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 218
Likes: 3
From: Brexland
I don't have a dog in this fight other than the hope BA keep their conditions as good as possible for theirs and everyone's sake. Ryanair CC bottled their opportunity in 2018 through poor cross border coordination and now in 2019 look what is happening there... BA CC have had their chance in 2019 and as expected look to have bottled it also. BA know that Balpa are not brave enough to really hurt the company and strike for a week and as such have no reason to give Any ground, not now, not ever. You can try again in 5 years, just hope they haven't destroyed the place before then. As for Balpa.. Is anyone surprised?