Ryanair Cancelling flights!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
From the frying pan into the fire? From one operator who is desperately short of pilots and who cares nothing about anyone to another. And if you are "lucky" make sure you always pay attention, don't miss any radio calls and maintain your situational awareness, especially when pilot monitoring.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 4
From: last time I looked I was still here.
In the eyes of the public,it passes the sniff test.I know it shouldn't but it does.
Why is that? Because the flight crew have lousy if any PR to respond. Why is that if IALPA is awake?
Not a nice airline but a great business. €50 million euro in costs - they would prefer not to have it due to there own poor corporate planning of manpower v aircraft but its peanuts.
Indeed. A few years ago RYR added €2/ticket for EU261 payments after the volcanic ash debacle. Work it out. >€150m pa; how much have they paid out in this years. Pure profit. The pax have already paid for their own compensation.
Why is that? Because the flight crew have lousy if any PR to respond. Why is that if IALPA is awake?
Not a nice airline but a great business. €50 million euro in costs - they would prefer not to have it due to there own poor corporate planning of manpower v aircraft but its peanuts.
Indeed. A few years ago RYR added €2/ticket for EU261 payments after the volcanic ash debacle. Work it out. >€150m pa; how much have they paid out in this years. Pure profit. The pax have already paid for their own compensation.
Last edited by RAT 5; 29th September 2017 at 10:32.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
From: EU
There is a general shortage of Captains at the moment, all over the industry, there is not enough experienced guys to make sure the operations run smoothly.
Add the fact never ending expansions puts even more pressure on the airlines, and there are players in market that are offering better service and quality than Ryanair at the moment, but for passengers and crews.
Sure there the ones happy to pay £1 for a ticket, and £150 for the extras, but I believe the tide or this misrepresentation is about to turn, people are not as DUMB as many airlines have treated them.
Sure you will have the masses of low income families travelling who can only afford Ryanair's flights, however if there is no crews, because of bad treatment, than it shows it's a business model that is not sustainable.
If any here have been a passenger with example Norwegian short haul, and you compare it with Ryanair, you would be amazed, flying as a passenger with Norwegian is probably closer to national carrier levels. Sure they have had their own problems this year, offering pilots £2400 to work on their off / leave days, because they DON'T HAVE ENOUGH pilots.
Listening to MOL, and his lies, I am shocked that there is not a revolt in the company, the total LACK OF RESPECT for the people working for him, and how he constantly plays his PR game, where he insults the whole profession, I am sorry it is disgusting that there is not enough coercion within the company that they don't just refuse to work for such a disrespectful leader as MOL, both towards passengers and crew.
With todays technology, this should not be a problem to organise, or at least work to rule.
What people need to understand, they are DESPERATE for pilots, Norwegian are desperate for pilots, most UK airlines are currently recruiting massive numbers, the companies will not start firing the ones they have at this moment, this is the momentum Ryanair pilots have been waiting for, but they unfortunately seem spineless to seize the moment and make it count.
The PR machine of the pilots and unions are weak, although this is the moment where you would probably even get massive public support, as the anger is growing.
This summer Norwegian offered Captains £2400 a day, to come and work on they off days.
Ryanair could face massive class-action lawsuits.
Ryanair have been trying to be very creative in the way they have handled this, probably actually making money on this.
Add the fact never ending expansions puts even more pressure on the airlines, and there are players in market that are offering better service and quality than Ryanair at the moment, but for passengers and crews.
Sure there the ones happy to pay £1 for a ticket, and £150 for the extras, but I believe the tide or this misrepresentation is about to turn, people are not as DUMB as many airlines have treated them.
Sure you will have the masses of low income families travelling who can only afford Ryanair's flights, however if there is no crews, because of bad treatment, than it shows it's a business model that is not sustainable.
If any here have been a passenger with example Norwegian short haul, and you compare it with Ryanair, you would be amazed, flying as a passenger with Norwegian is probably closer to national carrier levels. Sure they have had their own problems this year, offering pilots £2400 to work on their off / leave days, because they DON'T HAVE ENOUGH pilots.
Listening to MOL, and his lies, I am shocked that there is not a revolt in the company, the total LACK OF RESPECT for the people working for him, and how he constantly plays his PR game, where he insults the whole profession, I am sorry it is disgusting that there is not enough coercion within the company that they don't just refuse to work for such a disrespectful leader as MOL, both towards passengers and crew.
With todays technology, this should not be a problem to organise, or at least work to rule.
What people need to understand, they are DESPERATE for pilots, Norwegian are desperate for pilots, most UK airlines are currently recruiting massive numbers, the companies will not start firing the ones they have at this moment, this is the momentum Ryanair pilots have been waiting for, but they unfortunately seem spineless to seize the moment and make it count.
The PR machine of the pilots and unions are weak, although this is the moment where you would probably even get massive public support, as the anger is growing.
This summer Norwegian offered Captains £2400 a day, to come and work on they off days.
Ryanair could face massive class-action lawsuits.
Ryanair have been trying to be very creative in the way they have handled this, probably actually making money on this.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 523
Likes: 1
From: Kent
A view from SLF ...
I fly, as a passenger, 6-10 times a year.
If Ryanair have a flight that is:
- Between the airports I need
- At a time I want
- Cheap (has to be cheap to put up with the customer service)
then I would, in the past, have used them.
NEVER again - I can't risk them cancelling my flight without THEM paying for the replacement.
I will usually have time off work, accomodation, car hire, etc. booked - so changing dates isn't an option.
By the time they decide to tell me any cheap flights, on other carriers, will be long gone.
If I was a shareholder I would be spitting feathers at the moment.
Shares hit a high of €19.78 6 weeks ago - they are currently down at €16.02 (a 20% fall). The last time they were that low was the beginning of May.
I fly, as a passenger, 6-10 times a year.
If Ryanair have a flight that is:
- Between the airports I need
- At a time I want
- Cheap (has to be cheap to put up with the customer service)
then I would, in the past, have used them.
NEVER again - I can't risk them cancelling my flight without THEM paying for the replacement.
I will usually have time off work, accomodation, car hire, etc. booked - so changing dates isn't an option.
By the time they decide to tell me any cheap flights, on other carriers, will be long gone.
If I was a shareholder I would be spitting feathers at the moment.
Shares hit a high of €19.78 6 weeks ago - they are currently down at €16.02 (a 20% fall). The last time they were that low was the beginning of May.
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: tout autour
“One of the issues that I think we have to address is that maybe we have got the pilot pay a bit on the low side,” O’Leary said. “Maybe we have pushed it a little bit far in terms of pilot pay and pilot productivity.”
Face it O'Leary, your model of IR is dead.They never imagined implementing their twisted logic for workplace control against declining supply. Said elewhere, but adversarial IR is done.
One posits that the poster boy of aviation IR is torn down and his clan of followers from Air Asia's Fernandes to Qantas' Joyce are also shown to be the hollow mean in their part of the world.
Pilots are not the only part of an airline, it takes a huge number of people, but without them there is nothing with which to derive the revenue for all the expensive administrative staff to consume
Face it O'Leary, your model of IR is dead.They never imagined implementing their twisted logic for workplace control against declining supply. Said elewhere, but adversarial IR is done.
One posits that the poster boy of aviation IR is torn down and his clan of followers from Air Asia's Fernandes to Qantas' Joyce are also shown to be the hollow mean in their part of the world.
Pilots are not the only part of an airline, it takes a huge number of people, but without them there is nothing with which to derive the revenue for all the expensive administrative staff to consume
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: 3rd rock
As a long time airline pilot living far away from Europe I am most pleased to witness the fallout due to o'leary's greed. He is one of the main players responsible for the degeneration of our careers. The low cost carrier model has influenced pilot's salaries and terms and conditions throughout the globe.
I have never and will never encourage my children to become pilots.
The glory days are long gone and will never return. Bring on the pilot shortage
I have never and will never encourage my children to become pilots.
The glory days are long gone and will never return. Bring on the pilot shortage
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Southwest goes from strength to strength by valuing its passengers and employees.O'Leary's lamentable excuse for an airline and many like it drag the industry down.Very few airlines left worth a damn.
Last post for me...this site isnt what it used to be either.
Last post for me...this site isnt what it used to be either.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,270
Likes: 0
From: Cloud Cookoo Land
Is it difficult for investors to see that Ryanair needs a massive cultural shift in order to ensure long term sustainability? It's impossible to think how the management's existing employment relations model has any future. The multitude of court cases & litigation alongside the disastrous levels of employee/contractor turnover surely doesn't hold much longevity any more? No matter how much PR you spin to the public about being able to magic thousands of crew from the non existent pilot tree, or decisive ECJ rulings not effecting the way you do business; major investors surely must know the facts?
The way flight cancellations have been dealt with has been a fiasco according to both passengers & the CAA. But what exactly are the IAA doing? It all seems a bit strange.
I find it hard to believe how Ryanair will re-invent themselves again after this one. Not exactly fitting with the slogan 'Always getting better.'
The way flight cancellations have been dealt with has been a fiasco according to both passengers & the CAA. But what exactly are the IAA doing? It all seems a bit strange.
I find it hard to believe how Ryanair will re-invent themselves again after this one. Not exactly fitting with the slogan 'Always getting better.'
Joined: Jul 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 295
Likes: 31
From: Sunny Bay
FR are bleeding cash now - another poster did some rough figures and proposed its around 2M a day in lost Revenues and refunds. Then there's the damage to the brand, and the repercussions of future bookings falling through consumer fears of cancellations.
Yet MOL offers his pilots 10K€ DEFERRED for a YEAR to give up Annual Leave NOW?
If that isn't evidence of pig headed insanity I don't know what is. The house is on fire and he's pissing on the firemen!
On the other hand - nobody wants to see FR fail. The last thing pilots need right now is 4,000 jobless guys on the market. I wish them all the best - I think there's finally light at the end of the tunnel for them.
Yet MOL offers his pilots 10K€ DEFERRED for a YEAR to give up Annual Leave NOW?
If that isn't evidence of pig headed insanity I don't know what is. The house is on fire and he's pissing on the firemen!
On the other hand - nobody wants to see FR fail. The last thing pilots need right now is 4,000 jobless guys on the market. I wish them all the best - I think there's finally light at the end of the tunnel for them.
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
From: Europe
I do want to see Ryanair fail. Yes there will be massive unemployment for a short period but other airlines and new ones will step in to cover the gap left by Ryanair.
Their planes and customers will not just simply disappear. It's like the head of a drug cartel, you kill the boss and 3 others step in to take his place.
Their planes and customers will not just simply disappear. It's like the head of a drug cartel, you kill the boss and 3 others step in to take his place.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
Likes: 0
From: UK
So Ryanair got the info wrong on compensation bit economical with the truth we would probably agree.
So the next question is the 18hr week (1000 flying hours divided by 52 weeks) and "there's no fatigue"
Start making amends Mr OL
So the next question is the 18hr week (1000 flying hours divided by 52 weeks) and "there's no fatigue"
Start making amends Mr OL
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
This might be a disaster for Ryanair but it is also bad for the whole of the industry who seem not to give a toss about the customer. Sooner or later they will say enough is enough of being dragged off the cattle transports, their travel arrangements thrown into disarray by flight delays and cancellations, being frisked, stripped searched, stacked and packed into gulag queues, sleeping on terminal floors and suffering all manner of ignonimity for the pathetic pleasures of a litre or two of cheap lager, sangria or some other foul concoction under the mosquito infested skies above some distant shore.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 949
Likes: 0
From: Eu
I wouldn't lose any sleep if FR failed but it's not going to happen. In an ideal world we could do without RYR, Small Planet, Smart Lynx, Primera, l'avion all of whom use some pretty dodgy HR practices but the CAA just press the ignore button until they are shamed into it.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
Even Mo Farah has a bit of fat and I bet he 'carbs himself up' before a race. Anything that runs lean, mean and flat out will eventually crash for the sake a carrying a bit of fat. It might best be called "resilience". It means you still have a buffer should the unexpected occur. The multi-millionaire MOL has been caught short by the monster he has created. RYR will survive but will they and other organisations learn from his basic mistake. If you rip the heart out of you business and replace it with cash, you have no value. Man needs more than cash to live. RYR will have less cash left after this debacle, but will they have learnt their lesson?
Cut & Paste Intellectual
Joined: Jul 2003
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
From: Durham
Ironic that UK CAA is implementing and holding to account under Regulation (EC) 261/2004 of European and Council - another EU based airline whose own delegated aviation authority appears to be publicly mute on this significant CAT matter.
Is this what they call in classic EU speak "reste à liquider par les autres"?
Is this what they call in classic EU speak "reste à liquider par les autres"?
Joined: Feb 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 154
Likes: 7
From: London
I've always thought that sooner or later passengers are going to get sick and tired of being treated so poorly by certain airlines. I'd wager we have some distance to go yet though.
Does anyone here seriously believe that people will stop flying with Ryanair? People have a short memory and are hungry for a bargain. They will quickly forget this fiasco and come back for more punishment in the future. £9.99 to Malaga? Book it quick before the price goes up! Anyone with the slightest insight into economics and finance would judge that this is nothing more than a buying opportunity for Ryanair shares.
The reality is that we are all addicted to cheap travel, and cheap pretty much everything else. It's basically a drug. Who here hasn't seen something in a shop and then checked amazon before deciding where to buy it? Ultimately we're all guilty of the same rampant indifference when it comes to the consequences of our buying decisions, whether its Sports Direct, Amazon, Uber, Deliveroo... the list goes on and on. That is the nature of unbridled capitalism.
The only way the problem gets sorted is if one of two things happens.
1 ) Government and the regulators actually man up and hold companies like Ryanair to account, which is why it was at least a little gratifying to watch the CAA Chief executive get animated about the subject this week - god knows all of us who occupy these forums must have been wondering when and if he was even capable of it. It's also why terms and conditions in the USA are sky rocketing - because after the Colgan Air crash the regulator actually took some meaningful action.
Unfortunately the Irish regulator doesn't seem to be particularly fond of regulating, presumably because it would result in less airlines choosing to be registered in Ireland and less money flowing into the coffers. And we all thought it was going to be Brexit that was responsible for a low-regulation low-tax "rogue" state on the fringes of Europe. Anyone fancy an apple?
2) Employees finally realise that the only way to improve their lot is to unionise and hold companies to account through legally conducted IA. I don't really understand why this hasn't happened in Ryanair. Surely there must be an appetite for it?
Here's hoping that one or both of the above comes to pass or nothing at all will change.
Does anyone here seriously believe that people will stop flying with Ryanair? People have a short memory and are hungry for a bargain. They will quickly forget this fiasco and come back for more punishment in the future. £9.99 to Malaga? Book it quick before the price goes up! Anyone with the slightest insight into economics and finance would judge that this is nothing more than a buying opportunity for Ryanair shares.
The reality is that we are all addicted to cheap travel, and cheap pretty much everything else. It's basically a drug. Who here hasn't seen something in a shop and then checked amazon before deciding where to buy it? Ultimately we're all guilty of the same rampant indifference when it comes to the consequences of our buying decisions, whether its Sports Direct, Amazon, Uber, Deliveroo... the list goes on and on. That is the nature of unbridled capitalism.
The only way the problem gets sorted is if one of two things happens.
1 ) Government and the regulators actually man up and hold companies like Ryanair to account, which is why it was at least a little gratifying to watch the CAA Chief executive get animated about the subject this week - god knows all of us who occupy these forums must have been wondering when and if he was even capable of it. It's also why terms and conditions in the USA are sky rocketing - because after the Colgan Air crash the regulator actually took some meaningful action.
Unfortunately the Irish regulator doesn't seem to be particularly fond of regulating, presumably because it would result in less airlines choosing to be registered in Ireland and less money flowing into the coffers. And we all thought it was going to be Brexit that was responsible for a low-regulation low-tax "rogue" state on the fringes of Europe. Anyone fancy an apple?
2) Employees finally realise that the only way to improve their lot is to unionise and hold companies to account through legally conducted IA. I don't really understand why this hasn't happened in Ryanair. Surely there must be an appetite for it?
Here's hoping that one or both of the above comes to pass or nothing at all will change.