Non type rated easyjet recruitment?
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Because if they discourage pilots from joining, it makes their cushy life less tenable. Do we really think that they give a monkeys about anyone trying to get a decent permanent job with prospects of a good and quick command? No, I don't either. They have NO idea just how much the market has changed this last few years.
I don't know why some of you are even applying to easyJet; you appear to have such a poor view of the company and pilots. In my opinion, and I've been in easy a lot longer than Ashling they are one of the best employers around at the moment.
Susan, Ashling sensibly weighed up his options (remember around that time there was 9/11 and easy weren't as secure and successful as they are today), and he took a 'punt' as he puts it. It paid off and he is now reaping the rewards. On the other hand you want to join a successful company and immediately get all the benefits. I'm amazed with all your experience you need to even contemplate joining easyJet on any contract.
I sympathise that the contract is not what we all would want, but if you get an offer, accept it if you wish, decline if you don't and then for goodness sake stop wingeing.
SR71, nobody is forcing anybody into anything. Sleep in your car, live away from home, pay training loans, that is all up to you. You're not going to be handed anything on a plate. If you like what you see join, start contributing and then share in the rewards that you will have contributed to.
Why should the easy pilots, the BALPA CC and BALPA fight your battles with easy before you're in?
Susan, Ashling sensibly weighed up his options (remember around that time there was 9/11 and easy weren't as secure and successful as they are today), and he took a 'punt' as he puts it. It paid off and he is now reaping the rewards. On the other hand you want to join a successful company and immediately get all the benefits. I'm amazed with all your experience you need to even contemplate joining easyJet on any contract.
I sympathise that the contract is not what we all would want, but if you get an offer, accept it if you wish, decline if you don't and then for goodness sake stop wingeing.
SR71, nobody is forcing anybody into anything. Sleep in your car, live away from home, pay training loans, that is all up to you. You're not going to be handed anything on a plate. If you like what you see join, start contributing and then share in the rewards that you will have contributed to.
Why should the easy pilots, the BALPA CC and BALPA fight your battles with easy before you're in?
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Exactly the sort of Jack response I'd expect from someone that has reaped the rewards of joining at a time when they were offered. I'm not even going to debate this one with you anymore. When the junior guys start voting away your terms and conditions, I hope that you won't mind me then levelling "whingeing" accusations at your feet...
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And were you lured in by a "future captains wanted" and "opportunity to experienced first officers" advertisement, to spend weeks of your time and money attending a process to then be offered a Parc contract on 38k a year?! No, thought not. I have NOT been offered a permanent contract.
And just to be clear, this isn't about me having a dig at the easy pilot community, but more at the way this recruitment has been handled. The goal posts were ill defined at best, and have constantly moved just to add to people's confusion. I believe that EasyJet wanted to attract experienced guys and girls for whatever reason, a move that I know was supported by senior guys. However, the recruitment department are not doing as you desire. This is not me having a dig at all experienced guys (although some clearly have their heads up their arse) but more of a go at the manner in which the recruitment team have gone about recruiting people that presumably the majority of senior guys want. And I'm only saying what I was told at my sim assessment....
And just to be clear, this isn't about me having a dig at the easy pilot community, but more at the way this recruitment has been handled. The goal posts were ill defined at best, and have constantly moved just to add to people's confusion. I believe that EasyJet wanted to attract experienced guys and girls for whatever reason, a move that I know was supported by senior guys. However, the recruitment department are not doing as you desire. This is not me having a dig at all experienced guys (although some clearly have their heads up their arse) but more of a go at the manner in which the recruitment team have gone about recruiting people that presumably the majority of senior guys want. And I'm only saying what I was told at my sim assessment....
Last edited by SusanBoyle; 4th Sep 2013 at 13:22.
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You may be right, but as yet all I've had are confused emails and calls from the recruitment team. Not even they seem to know exactly what they're offering...I am one of several I know that are in this same position.
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Susan, I hope you get the info to make an informed choice but that info won't come from prune I'm afraid. You have to make your choice just as I made mine a number of years ago.
BTW its because Balpa members (including me and many other experienced Captains)were willing to take action that terms have improved for new joiners. management deserve some credit too.
If you do join then be committed to it keep your head low and work hard, you will succeed, oh and join Balpa then you can wreck revenge on all of us jack Captains !
BTW its because Balpa members (including me and many other experienced Captains)were willing to take action that terms have improved for new joiners. management deserve some credit too.
If you do join then be committed to it keep your head low and work hard, you will succeed, oh and join Balpa then you can wreck revenge on all of us jack Captains !
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The terms and conditions have indeed improved for low experience pilots and that is indeed thanks to BALPA. However, for experienced pilots, I think that this deal is a new low and that BALPA have screwed things up again. Experienced guys joining on cadet terms and conditions is not progress. The company may well think that they are being clever, recruiting the lowest common denominator, but it could easily bite them in the butt. This has already been a very messy recruitment drive.
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I suspect that EZY are rather happy if people turn these positions down, as it means that they have created the illusion of 'wanting more experience' and they can now go about their business as they have done for years. They will have satisfied BALPA's request, and they can say that it failed, and then 'recruit' lots of temporary CTC-ites. Such a shame.
I'm sure the shareholders are extremely proud.
I'm sure the shareholders are extremely proud.
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EcamSurprise,
You wrote
but on Page 2 of this thread, in response to a question about why EZY are recruiting "experienced" pilots, this was written:
I'd heard it was also the Regulator that was interested in the pilot demographic but maybe that is BS....
I believe that it is not possible to replace the pilots this recruitment drive aims to recruit, with cadets, and that this is a possible point of leverage for the pilots.
stiglet,
Never applied, don't need to, never will.
But before you crow on about my contribution to the thread, it will be obvious from previous contributions, that I take an interest in the T&C's of my colleagues, both those more fortunate than myself and those less fortunate.
It is a sorry state of affairs that your defence amounts to what looks like, "I've done it, so you can do it!" Pathetic. All those pilots joining the profession, for most of history, who accrued proper remuneration & T&C's in the RHS from Day 1...the profession was deluded was it?
I don't think you really mean:
What you mean is: you experience some of the best T&C's around at the moment. There is a world of difference between the two. There are precious few people on this thread hankering after working for the organisation off the back of whats on offer here.
The actions of the outfit referred to by numerous posters in this thread are not those of an admirable organisation by any stretch of the imagination, whereupon the accolade "best" is seriously misplaced.
Once again, £500 million profit in 12/13, multi-billion £ aircraft orders, handsomely rewarded CEO and one of the worst deals on offer for an experienced pilot!
As for the Senior pilots at EZY seeking kudos for standing by this deal, the honest ones will admit they are playing serious catch-up on this front, attempting to close the gate long after the horse has bolted, so best not to feel too smug.
All IMO of course.
You wrote
However, had no action been taken, you and all the others wouldn't have had ANY opportunity and all the places would have gone to CAE & CTC cadets, as before.
Three reasons probably.
1) Rumour has it the insurers are getting a bit nervous about the experience level.
2) Cost was a big issue. eJ could bypass the old "expensive" contract with flexicrew - they got ultimate flexibility and low crew cost in the RHS compared to less flexibility on a 5354 pattern and a high fixed cost. Now with the new contract, they have the best of both worlds; they can manage seasonality by measuring the amount of copilots they have on 5354 for a lot less money, 100% FRV and 75% FRV. Now cost is sorted, there's no reason not to employ more experienced crew.
3) With the end of the recession and the start of some significant growth in the next 3-5 years, attrition is likely to rise, which will more than likely lead to a significant loss of crew. Remember a lot of the FO community at eJ are early/mid/late twenties so are more likely to leave for the likes of BA / Emirates which is a bit more career orientated. There is also a large bubble of copilots that joined with 200hrs 2-3 years ago. It leaves a bit of an experience gap for commands in 3 years or so. Getting a variety of crew with more hours balances that a bit.
1) Rumour has it the insurers are getting a bit nervous about the experience level.
2) Cost was a big issue. eJ could bypass the old "expensive" contract with flexicrew - they got ultimate flexibility and low crew cost in the RHS compared to less flexibility on a 5354 pattern and a high fixed cost. Now with the new contract, they have the best of both worlds; they can manage seasonality by measuring the amount of copilots they have on 5354 for a lot less money, 100% FRV and 75% FRV. Now cost is sorted, there's no reason not to employ more experienced crew.
3) With the end of the recession and the start of some significant growth in the next 3-5 years, attrition is likely to rise, which will more than likely lead to a significant loss of crew. Remember a lot of the FO community at eJ are early/mid/late twenties so are more likely to leave for the likes of BA / Emirates which is a bit more career orientated. There is also a large bubble of copilots that joined with 200hrs 2-3 years ago. It leaves a bit of an experience gap for commands in 3 years or so. Getting a variety of crew with more hours balances that a bit.
I believe that it is not possible to replace the pilots this recruitment drive aims to recruit, with cadets, and that this is a possible point of leverage for the pilots.
stiglet,
SR71, nobody is forcing anybody into anything. Sleep in your car, live away from home, pay training loans, that is all up to you. You're not going to be handed anything on a plate. If you like what you see join, start contributing and then share in the rewards that you will have contributed to.
But before you crow on about my contribution to the thread, it will be obvious from previous contributions, that I take an interest in the T&C's of my colleagues, both those more fortunate than myself and those less fortunate.
It is a sorry state of affairs that your defence amounts to what looks like, "I've done it, so you can do it!" Pathetic. All those pilots joining the profession, for most of history, who accrued proper remuneration & T&C's in the RHS from Day 1...the profession was deluded was it?
I don't think you really mean:
you work for one of the best Employers around at the moment
The actions of the outfit referred to by numerous posters in this thread are not those of an admirable organisation by any stretch of the imagination, whereupon the accolade "best" is seriously misplaced.
Once again, £500 million profit in 12/13, multi-billion £ aircraft orders, handsomely rewarded CEO and one of the worst deals on offer for an experienced pilot!
As for the Senior pilots at EZY seeking kudos for standing by this deal, the honest ones will admit they are playing serious catch-up on this front, attempting to close the gate long after the horse has bolted, so best not to feel too smug.
All IMO of course.
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Fair weather flyer, flying camel, and SR71 you have EXACTLY summised my thoughts and frustrations. Perhaps along the way I've put a couple of noses out of joint, but unless you've ever seen bad times, or watched your career disappear down the pan due any amount of reasons out of your control, then you can't really understand. All I want is honesty and integrity and a fair contract for the experience I have and that THEY said they required! Too much too ask? It would appear so...
SB,
I am glad you are setting the market rate by turning it down - it's a shame that it has all been done back to front though.
I hope this continues until eJ offer the correct package for the correct people and we all then prosper.
I am glad you are setting the market rate by turning it down - it's a shame that it has all been done back to front though.
I hope this continues until eJ offer the correct package for the correct people and we all then prosper.
PPRuNe Secret Agent!
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Well said Susan!
Those of us that have been around for roughly 10 years professionally flying will totally understand...right with yer SuBo!!
All those things you quoted are still around, hidden, in very short supply and requiring a little luck to find. I found it all earlier this year, by luck! - good luck!
All I want is honesty and integrity and a fair contract for the experience I have and that THEY said they required! Too much too ask? It would appear so...
All those things you quoted are still around, hidden, in very short supply and requiring a little luck to find. I found it all earlier this year, by luck! - good luck!
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Capt Thunder/Mike Honcho
Don't be mistaken about the tax/social security situation. In post 1010 it looks as though you think that the CTC pay is tax paid. It isn't. The difference is CTC are paying the employers National Insurance contribution. that is all. Which they should always have done anyway. Any pay will still be subject to income tax.
Ashling you are talking about something completely different. This offer is far far more insulting than what you joined on. On my interview day there was an RAF chap, many thousands of hours on heavy transport. Without wanting to give too much away to identify him there were other aspects to his CV which were outstanding. Civvy licences in place, with time on large Airbus on his civvy licence. What did he get offered? Yep, CTC.
All the EZY defenders are well entitled to sit and think it's the best job in the world. their prerogative. There are many who disagree. Lets face it, if BA were ever to stoop this low, which they obviously won't, people would probably still join, given it's a proper career airline. What is the future going to hold once this intake are all ready for the LHS. See Lisbon. If EZY really were committed to T&C's why are they doing so badly there?
One also wonders about the motives of existing FO's. A large amount of experienced people joining, with a lot of command experience wouldn't bode well for their command prospects.
I'm trying to spot the difference between this and Ryanair. Right now I can't.
Good luck to everyone still in the mix. Those borrowing money be careful. That's if a bank will even lend on such a flimsy deal. I only wish I hadn't been in the first wave. I could have saved a few days of my life I'll never see again, for the sake of a PR exercise. They don't want experience. they want cheap.
Don't be mistaken about the tax/social security situation. In post 1010 it looks as though you think that the CTC pay is tax paid. It isn't. The difference is CTC are paying the employers National Insurance contribution. that is all. Which they should always have done anyway. Any pay will still be subject to income tax.
Ashling you are talking about something completely different. This offer is far far more insulting than what you joined on. On my interview day there was an RAF chap, many thousands of hours on heavy transport. Without wanting to give too much away to identify him there were other aspects to his CV which were outstanding. Civvy licences in place, with time on large Airbus on his civvy licence. What did he get offered? Yep, CTC.
All the EZY defenders are well entitled to sit and think it's the best job in the world. their prerogative. There are many who disagree. Lets face it, if BA were ever to stoop this low, which they obviously won't, people would probably still join, given it's a proper career airline. What is the future going to hold once this intake are all ready for the LHS. See Lisbon. If EZY really were committed to T&C's why are they doing so badly there?
One also wonders about the motives of existing FO's. A large amount of experienced people joining, with a lot of command experience wouldn't bode well for their command prospects.
I'm trying to spot the difference between this and Ryanair. Right now I can't.
Good luck to everyone still in the mix. Those borrowing money be careful. That's if a bank will even lend on such a flimsy deal. I only wish I hadn't been in the first wave. I could have saved a few days of my life I'll never see again, for the sake of a PR exercise. They don't want experience. they want cheap.
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Right behind you SuBo.
What a way to start a new job with an employer. The list of requirements for pilots is longer than my arm, but what do they offer in return? Not much it would appear, not to mention a total lack of integrity.
Must be something that's taught at business schools around the globe..
What a way to start a new job with an employer. The list of requirements for pilots is longer than my arm, but what do they offer in return? Not much it would appear, not to mention a total lack of integrity.
Must be something that's taught at business schools around the globe..
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To dream the impossible dreaaaaammmmm! (That one day you get some terms and conditions and recognition of your experience!)
Sadly, there will be all too many that will either want to, or have to, take one of these Flexi/Parc contracts. Funny, I don't remember the advertisement asking for Flexi or PARC pilots! Nor for that matter a demotion not to First Officer, but SECOND Officer! If I'd have wanted that, then I would have applied for it years ago. But silly me thought that they were after experienced guys, and offering permanent contracts, due to a looming experience gap...
You never know, there's still time for them to surprise me! Shame really, almost everyone I met at easy was great. New aircraft, good routes, fixed roster pattern, and some I believe are even on competitive pay and Terms and Conditions! Seems you needed to join 10 years ago for that though...
Sadly, there will be all too many that will either want to, or have to, take one of these Flexi/Parc contracts. Funny, I don't remember the advertisement asking for Flexi or PARC pilots! Nor for that matter a demotion not to First Officer, but SECOND Officer! If I'd have wanted that, then I would have applied for it years ago. But silly me thought that they were after experienced guys, and offering permanent contracts, due to a looming experience gap...
You never know, there's still time for them to surprise me! Shame really, almost everyone I met at easy was great. New aircraft, good routes, fixed roster pattern, and some I believe are even on competitive pay and Terms and Conditions! Seems you needed to join 10 years ago for that though...
Last edited by SusanBoyle; 4th Sep 2013 at 23:07.
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There has been a lot said about the deal on offer here with many suggesting that offering a flexi contract to experienced pilots gives easy an extended probationary period and somehow protects the business.
This is a red herring and very naive. During the first 12 months of employment, the employee has virtually no employment rights anyway. A 6 month probationary period is common place and this can always be extended if there are concerns. As the employee is paying for the type rating and is not actually employed by easy until successful completion, there is no risk whatsoever that I can see. Of course this all follows an extensive selection process which should be robust enough to weed out anyone not suitable. This alone should protect the business let alone a 6 month probationary period.
Extending the probationary period to 2 years (CTC for one year plus a 12 month probationary period with easy) doesn't give you anymore protection against employing the wrong people - it just makes it easier not to pay people a wage should there be a downturn!
So I'm left thinking what is the motivation of easy HR & management in employing experienced people vs cadets?
Again there has been lots of talk on here as to why easy advertised (which they most certainly did) for experienced pilots as opposed to just taking on more cadets.
I think there are a variety of reasons; pressure from BALPA, from easy captains, concerns from insurers and perhaps even a concern over where cadets are coming from given the cost and current financial climate.
What is for sure is that easy advertised for experienced pilots WITHOUT any mention of flexi contracts.
I firmly believe that they want the experience but after they started the recruitment campaign realised that with so many applicants they could screw everyone into accepting cadet terms. Either that or they just lied from the beginning.
The plan is simple. Divide & conquer. If you don't take it plenty will. When this recruitment drive is over there will be lots of people in easy patting each other on the back saying what a wonderful job they all did screwing experienced pilots into accepting the same terms as newly qualified cadets and how they managed to save around £2M pa in wages over the next 2 years. Oh how clever they will all be.
In the meantime you will have potentially hundreds of experienced pilots sweating over how to pay back their £20k loan after giving up a secure job, whilst paying the mortgage & still feeding the wife & kids. All this time easy will be telling you how safety is their number one priority.
What is most concerning for me are the morals of the people running easyJet. This whole process has seemed very under-handed and deceptive. Despite stating that permanent contracts are available dependant on performance, base selection & requirement, I have yet to hear of a single person being offered a permanent contract. In other-words, if they can get enough people to take flexi-contracts they will regardless of how well people did in assessment. Call me old fashioned but that sounds like a lie?
They will justify their decisions with the classic "doing it for the business". I wonder how many of these same people would switch to a flexi contract "for the sake of the business" or be happy for their loved ones to do the same. If their so concerned about maximising the profits of the business, surely none will mind taking a 30% pay cut next year if things get a bit tight?
Maximising profits is one thing. Taking advantage of people and the current situation in aviation employment is another. Its the thin edge of the wedge. Next year they will be looking to maximise profits yet again. I wonder what they will do then?
This is a red herring and very naive. During the first 12 months of employment, the employee has virtually no employment rights anyway. A 6 month probationary period is common place and this can always be extended if there are concerns. As the employee is paying for the type rating and is not actually employed by easy until successful completion, there is no risk whatsoever that I can see. Of course this all follows an extensive selection process which should be robust enough to weed out anyone not suitable. This alone should protect the business let alone a 6 month probationary period.
Extending the probationary period to 2 years (CTC for one year plus a 12 month probationary period with easy) doesn't give you anymore protection against employing the wrong people - it just makes it easier not to pay people a wage should there be a downturn!
So I'm left thinking what is the motivation of easy HR & management in employing experienced people vs cadets?
Again there has been lots of talk on here as to why easy advertised (which they most certainly did) for experienced pilots as opposed to just taking on more cadets.
I think there are a variety of reasons; pressure from BALPA, from easy captains, concerns from insurers and perhaps even a concern over where cadets are coming from given the cost and current financial climate.
What is for sure is that easy advertised for experienced pilots WITHOUT any mention of flexi contracts.
I firmly believe that they want the experience but after they started the recruitment campaign realised that with so many applicants they could screw everyone into accepting cadet terms. Either that or they just lied from the beginning.
The plan is simple. Divide & conquer. If you don't take it plenty will. When this recruitment drive is over there will be lots of people in easy patting each other on the back saying what a wonderful job they all did screwing experienced pilots into accepting the same terms as newly qualified cadets and how they managed to save around £2M pa in wages over the next 2 years. Oh how clever they will all be.
In the meantime you will have potentially hundreds of experienced pilots sweating over how to pay back their £20k loan after giving up a secure job, whilst paying the mortgage & still feeding the wife & kids. All this time easy will be telling you how safety is their number one priority.
What is most concerning for me are the morals of the people running easyJet. This whole process has seemed very under-handed and deceptive. Despite stating that permanent contracts are available dependant on performance, base selection & requirement, I have yet to hear of a single person being offered a permanent contract. In other-words, if they can get enough people to take flexi-contracts they will regardless of how well people did in assessment. Call me old fashioned but that sounds like a lie?
They will justify their decisions with the classic "doing it for the business". I wonder how many of these same people would switch to a flexi contract "for the sake of the business" or be happy for their loved ones to do the same. If their so concerned about maximising the profits of the business, surely none will mind taking a 30% pay cut next year if things get a bit tight?
Maximising profits is one thing. Taking advantage of people and the current situation in aviation employment is another. Its the thin edge of the wedge. Next year they will be looking to maximise profits yet again. I wonder what they will do then?
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Next year they will be looking to maximise profits yet again. I wonder what they will do then?
All in the interest of the business of-course.