Non type rated easyjet recruitment?
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: La Napoule
SuBo et al,
There are experienced SFO's who are presently in the 'command process' who purely on numbers are looking at 2 to 3 years to the LHS.
As a consequence the very same are looking at the sandpit as a more attractive long term proposition.
There are experienced SFO's who are presently in the 'command process' who purely on numbers are looking at 2 to 3 years to the LHS.
As a consequence the very same are looking at the sandpit as a more attractive long term proposition.
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: La Napoule
I'm sorry to tell you it is.
These SFO's have over 5 years service each and are number two hundred plus on the list.
They have been told 2 to 3 years and that's why sadly they are looking elsewhere.
They are skippers in the RHS imho.
These SFO's have over 5 years service each and are number two hundred plus on the list.
They have been told 2 to 3 years and that's why sadly they are looking elsewhere.
They are skippers in the RHS imho.
Joined: Aug 2012
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From: Not At Home
I'm sorry to tell you it is.
These SFO's have over 5 years service each and are number two hundred plus on the list.
They have been told 2 to 3 years and that's why sadly they are looking elsewhere.
They are skippers in the RHS imho.
These SFO's have over 5 years service each and are number two hundred plus on the list.
They have been told 2 to 3 years and that's why sadly they are looking elsewhere.
They are skippers in the RHS imho.
Yes some people might look elsewhere, but the majority aren't.
And does that even make sense? People are leaving to do what? Spend even longer in the RHS?
If they're leaving, it isn't just because it's a couple of years to wait until they get a command.. which is still shorter than in most other airlines.
Last edited by EcamSurprise; 6th September 2013 at 19:07.
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: La Napoule
ECAM my comments are quite specific to some of the most experienced FO's at our base. They are not and were not general comments.
One of their arguments is that another 3 years here is another 3 years closer to a wide body command at MRats.
(as an aside my mates son left easy 9 years ago; Got command 5 years ago and is now left seat A380).
I've flown with so many guys over the years who would never consider going elsewhere...
One of their arguments is that another 3 years here is another 3 years closer to a wide body command at MRats.
(as an aside my mates son left easy 9 years ago; Got command 5 years ago and is now left seat A380).
I've flown with so many guys over the years who would never consider going elsewhere...
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 42
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From: here and there
Thats simply not true. 70 commands this year 120 next year. ( trust me i know) anyone joining with experience is well place as theres no seniority system.
3-5% growth PA, record profits, good union relations, 250 pilots PA for the next few years. commanders on a minimum of 100k - much more all in.
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: here and there
@EcamSurprise
Thanks for the info.
Ah ok so anyone with approx just under 3 years service give or take should be eligible to begin the command process. Accepting the fact that there isn't a seniority system I take it that there is one when you're signed up for this process or is it still a free for all (clearly not union friendly if so)?
I've read that expect in recent times a min of 6-7 years for newcomers for command, that means that following your information and believing that most likely 99.999999% of FO's will sign up for the command program once eligible the experienced guys that join now will in fact have closer to a 3-4 year wait and not a 2 year wait as previously reported?
@GEKO & EcamSurprise
I therefore guess that at least half if not all of the 120 guys (seeing as they all need to start over the next 10 months) ready for the command upgrade have their course dates and are all good to go?? Maybe someone over a hundred on the list might like to confirm that on here. Excuse my sceptism but I've worked for a few companies and all of them hugely over inflate themselves in company wide newsletters after all who wants the hear that in fact there are only going to be 50 upgrades next year!
I'm also still waiting to hear from someone who can mathematically explain how all this expansion is going to happen? There are clearly plenty of people on here that give eJ a glowing report and therefore they must have an exceptionally good retention rate, much less attrition rate than 3% is my guess. As far as I can tell less than 10 airframes due over the next 16 months.
At around 5 crews per airframe and say an attrition rate of 2% from say 2200 pilots that's equates to 144 additional crew max for 16 months giving an annualized rate of 108, far short of the 250 previously mentioned.
Just to explain, I'm actually a backseat supporter of eJ and believe that overall they are most likely one of the better employers however to me the Maths that are being mentioned by supporters (i.e. employees) simply don't add up so please someone explain it to me.... Support your company by all means and I'm all for that but don't simply say things to big up your company, some people here are trying to make exceptionally crucial decisions so real facts are what's needed not "my dad is bigger than your dad" comments.
Although taking it with a pinch of salt only a fool would completely ignore the recent report from RYR. As much as I believe eJ is by far the better service provider, and therefore better placed, it doesn't mean they are immune to similar results. Someone loading themselves up with debt for a temporary contract will be a life changing decision but could go either way.
Thanks for the info.
Ah ok so anyone with approx just under 3 years service give or take should be eligible to begin the command process. Accepting the fact that there isn't a seniority system I take it that there is one when you're signed up for this process or is it still a free for all (clearly not union friendly if so)?
I've read that expect in recent times a min of 6-7 years for newcomers for command, that means that following your information and believing that most likely 99.999999% of FO's will sign up for the command program once eligible the experienced guys that join now will in fact have closer to a 3-4 year wait and not a 2 year wait as previously reported?
@GEKO & EcamSurprise
I therefore guess that at least half if not all of the 120 guys (seeing as they all need to start over the next 10 months) ready for the command upgrade have their course dates and are all good to go?? Maybe someone over a hundred on the list might like to confirm that on here. Excuse my sceptism but I've worked for a few companies and all of them hugely over inflate themselves in company wide newsletters after all who wants the hear that in fact there are only going to be 50 upgrades next year!
I'm also still waiting to hear from someone who can mathematically explain how all this expansion is going to happen? There are clearly plenty of people on here that give eJ a glowing report and therefore they must have an exceptionally good retention rate, much less attrition rate than 3% is my guess. As far as I can tell less than 10 airframes due over the next 16 months.
At around 5 crews per airframe and say an attrition rate of 2% from say 2200 pilots that's equates to 144 additional crew max for 16 months giving an annualized rate of 108, far short of the 250 previously mentioned.
Just to explain, I'm actually a backseat supporter of eJ and believe that overall they are most likely one of the better employers however to me the Maths that are being mentioned by supporters (i.e. employees) simply don't add up so please someone explain it to me.... Support your company by all means and I'm all for that but don't simply say things to big up your company, some people here are trying to make exceptionally crucial decisions so real facts are what's needed not "my dad is bigger than your dad" comments.
Although taking it with a pinch of salt only a fool would completely ignore the recent report from RYR. As much as I believe eJ is by far the better service provider, and therefore better placed, it doesn't mean they are immune to similar results. Someone loading themselves up with debt for a temporary contract will be a life changing decision but could go either way.
Joined: Jul 2013
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From: Planet Earth
So guys, if you are now joining on permanent SFO contract(3000+ eJ factored hours), what will be your time to LHS realistically?
Heard from some interviewers ,which were on assessment day, that it can be fast, dunno if it is true
Heard from some interviewers ,which were on assessment day, that it can be fast, dunno if it is true
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: On cloud 9
If you join EZY now and fullfill all requirements for upgrade already - looking apart from the company development requirements - , I guess you can in theory be in the left seat in 2 years time +/-
2 years because there are a lot of SFO's/FO's already in the queue and once in it, there is a slot to be followed so you would get behind them if they have the hours. At the moment there are around 200 who will be ready when their time comes, however there will also be a number who fail the process along the way.
What is the time in BA/Virgin/Emirates/Thomas Cook/Thomsonfly/ect ect?
2 years because there are a lot of SFO's/FO's already in the queue and once in it, there is a slot to be followed so you would get behind them if they have the hours. At the moment there are around 200 who will be ready when their time comes, however there will also be a number who fail the process along the way.
What is the time in BA/Virgin/Emirates/Thomas Cook/Thomsonfly/ect ect?
Joined: Feb 2009
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From: Eu
You'll get a command in EK as quick as you'll get one in easy. Lot of promotions in the coming year but people already have their names on those and beyond that it'll slow down again. I reckon the 120 published will increase slightly though.
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: here and there
Mr-P: Your calculations of attrition do not take account of the large "BA retirement home" contingent who joined eJ post 2006 in large numbers and who are all now due to retire again!
@Cmon-PullUP
That's interesting numbers, so I guess that means that there are only around 200 (S)FO's with more than 2000 eJ hours out of around 1100ish. Seems a little low but if it is so then no wonder eJ are trying to recruit some experienced guys.
Finally I don't think the fact that time to command could be shorter than elsewhere but that some throw around numbers without backing them up. Anyone joining now would be at the back of anyone that is signed up to the command program already. It has been mentioned that this is possible after 2000 eJ factored hours. I'm of the opinion that just about every pilot that meets that requirement will in fact sign up and so this is how I get to my numbers, I'm an outsider and open to other points of view and corrections.
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Huh huh huh ... what was the question again?
Just something to bear in mind for those eyeing a fast track command.
I joined as experienced crew a few years back, initially on contract then permanent following redundancy. Be aware that there is a requirement to have completed 6 months PERMANENT employment before you are eligible to even start the command process. There are 120 command upgrades this winter but were only 50 last winter so impossible to give an accurate time to command as it varies considerably each year. However, from my experience plan on 2-4 years from being made permanent.
As for working for EZY, I like it. Agreed it's getting in that's the issue, and big, carefully considered decisions are necessary. Just my opinion. Hope it helps and good luck to all in making the right call for them.
I joined as experienced crew a few years back, initially on contract then permanent following redundancy. Be aware that there is a requirement to have completed 6 months PERMANENT employment before you are eligible to even start the command process. There are 120 command upgrades this winter but were only 50 last winter so impossible to give an accurate time to command as it varies considerably each year. However, from my experience plan on 2-4 years from being made permanent.
As for working for EZY, I like it. Agreed it's getting in that's the issue, and big, carefully considered decisions are necessary. Just my opinion. Hope it helps and good luck to all in making the right call for them.
Joined: Aug 1998
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
I joined easyJet with 7500 hours as an FO, at a time they were desperate for commanders and there were no waiting lists - and it still took 18 months to run through the process to command.
easyJet have no seniority - true, but it is a one type airline (no need for seniority for fleet bids). Once a person has completed command assessment they are on the list, in position, for promotion - and that list is currently 2-3 years long.
Having said that - it is a good airline to work for, with good people.
easyJet have no seniority - true, but it is a one type airline (no need for seniority for fleet bids). Once a person has completed command assessment they are on the list, in position, for promotion - and that list is currently 2-3 years long.
Having said that - it is a good airline to work for, with good people.
Joined: May 2013
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From: The Troposphere
So, let me get this right....The current list is 2-3 years long, which means that unless you join as an SFO (because you need to be in order to be considered for command), and on a permanent contract (also required to be considered for command), the earliest you'd expect to command as a new joiner is 2-3 years minimum?
Therefore, if you join as anything other than SFO, e.g., SO, or Parc contract, you could spend 2-3 years waiting before you're even eligible for command, meaning the total time to command would be between 4-6 years, ie. the same as what we were told a new joiner cadet would expect to do.
So the question I have is, why were they asking for experienced FO's? And what are easy up to with these applicants?!
Therefore, if you join as anything other than SFO, e.g., SO, or Parc contract, you could spend 2-3 years waiting before you're even eligible for command, meaning the total time to command would be between 4-6 years, ie. the same as what we were told a new joiner cadet would expect to do.
So the question I have is, why were they asking for experienced FO's? And what are easy up to with these applicants?!
Last edited by SusanBoyle; 7th September 2013 at 23:32.
Guest
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SuBo, you've been given some duff information.
New joiners can only spend a maximum of 12 month on contract so 12 plus 6 months is 18 months then conservatively let's say 36 months on the command list gives a maximum of 4.5 years.
However since there are so many commanders in their early 30's who aren't planning on going anywhere at some point the game of musical chairs will stop or at least go to a crawl at which point 10 years will be the norm......
PS stop seeing a conspiracy......there is none.
New joiners can only spend a maximum of 12 month on contract so 12 plus 6 months is 18 months then conservatively let's say 36 months on the command list gives a maximum of 4.5 years.
However since there are so many commanders in their early 30's who aren't planning on going anywhere at some point the game of musical chairs will stop or at least go to a crawl at which point 10 years will be the norm......
PS stop seeing a conspiracy......there is none.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0204; 8th September 2013 at 06:50.
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Hampshire physically; Perthshire and Pembrokeshire mentally.
Mr P,
If I may weigh-in on that, being a BA pre-Oct 06 retiree. The question of how many over the next year is irrelevant because you wouldn't be on a command course within a year of starting. The point Meikleour was making is that there is a significant number of us. I know of four who have retired in the last month alone. I will be gone in 2.5 years and so will quite a few others whom I know. There is also a contingent of ex-Cathay, ex-Virgin and ex-sandpit people who are all within sight of their personal sunsets.
I happen to be a TRE and closely involved with command selection and training at EZY so I'd like to add this: One gets the feeling from a number of posters here that all you have to do is turn up with the hours and the LHS spot will be yours. It won't be like that. As well as a Base Captain interview you will have to do the command development eLearning package which comprises a number of CBT presentations. Then there is a series of command development flights and a rigorous command assessment simulator detail and interview with a TRE. Once through that your record will be reviewed and if successful, you will join the queue. The aim of the development and assessment is to eliminate, if possible, failures on the course. There is a high expectation that everyone on a course will pass. Despite all that we still have a few failures each year.
The course itself is three days ground school, 6 simulator details and 26 sectors. It is high pressure; not a stroll in the park. People who gain their four rings at EZY these days have earned them.
Having said all that I do hope that a significant number of experienced people from all backgrounds accept what's on offer. You are needed. I cannot comment on the contracts offered; those are the remit of the commercial and HR people.
Interesting comment and of course one that should be included so how many we talking over the next year? 10, 20, surely no more than that?
I happen to be a TRE and closely involved with command selection and training at EZY so I'd like to add this: One gets the feeling from a number of posters here that all you have to do is turn up with the hours and the LHS spot will be yours. It won't be like that. As well as a Base Captain interview you will have to do the command development eLearning package which comprises a number of CBT presentations. Then there is a series of command development flights and a rigorous command assessment simulator detail and interview with a TRE. Once through that your record will be reviewed and if successful, you will join the queue. The aim of the development and assessment is to eliminate, if possible, failures on the course. There is a high expectation that everyone on a course will pass. Despite all that we still have a few failures each year.
The course itself is three days ground school, 6 simulator details and 26 sectors. It is high pressure; not a stroll in the park. People who gain their four rings at EZY these days have earned them.
Having said all that I do hope that a significant number of experienced people from all backgrounds accept what's on offer. You are needed. I cannot comment on the contracts offered; those are the remit of the commercial and HR people.
Joined: Sep 2009
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: UK
Wingswinger
My concern (addressed to you as someone who is involved in the command process) is the attitude that some of the hopefuls on here have. Their understandable desire for the LHS and obvious feeling that they justify a quick command may make them poor supporting FO's for some of our new, young commanders. An experience and age gap between the LHS and RHS is a known issue, however so is the fact that older more experienced FO's flying with younger less experinenced captains can also cause problems. By the time these new recruits get onto the command list there will be a significant number of FO's above them who have only ever experienced CTC and easyJet.
We just have to trust that the recruiters in easyJet are taking as much careful consideration when choosing future pilots to their attitiude as they are to their experience and qualifications. Experience and qualifications are easy to assess; attitude is more difficult. As some have suggested; what they portray here is vastly difference to how they present at interview.
My concern (addressed to you as someone who is involved in the command process) is the attitude that some of the hopefuls on here have. Their understandable desire for the LHS and obvious feeling that they justify a quick command may make them poor supporting FO's for some of our new, young commanders. An experience and age gap between the LHS and RHS is a known issue, however so is the fact that older more experienced FO's flying with younger less experinenced captains can also cause problems. By the time these new recruits get onto the command list there will be a significant number of FO's above them who have only ever experienced CTC and easyJet.
We just have to trust that the recruiters in easyJet are taking as much careful consideration when choosing future pilots to their attitiude as they are to their experience and qualifications. Experience and qualifications are easy to assess; attitude is more difficult. As some have suggested; what they portray here is vastly difference to how they present at interview.
Last edited by stiglet; 8th September 2013 at 09:45.
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15
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From: UK
Their attitude is derived from the industry. Europe has made it relatively easy to sit in any jet for any major airline with as little as 200hrs. Therefore these individuals have had it easy compaired to previous generations and other countries such as in the FAA system where you work your way up as in any other profession. Its no surprise at all that these characters have a bad attitude as everything has been given to them on a plate.
Mach 3
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 624
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From: Stratosphere
Having said all that I do hope that a significant number of experienced people from all backgrounds accept what's on offer. You are needed. I cannot comment on the contracts offered; those are the remit of the commercial and HR people.
....There is also a contingent of ex-Cathay, ex-Virgin and ex-sandpit people who are all within sight of their personal sunsets...
Frankly though, if the aforementioned is the case, everybody contemplating joining ought to hold out for something better. Why colleagues on the inside of the airline, aren't saying that? One can only speculate....
The Southwest Airlines motto is "Doing the Right Thing". The book, The Southwest Airlines Way, identifies various reasons why the organisation is so successful and respected.
EZY is doing this the wrong way. There is no justifiable reason for many of the aspects of this NEC. For instance, the numbers of experienced NR'ed people failing TR's on joining a new Company must be vanishingly small.
Various contributors may feel the end justifies the means, but SuBo is right, in the sense that, if EZY kicks off its relationship with these new experienced pilots on such a shaky footing, why should they believe the leopard will ever change its spots? Similarly, how can they fail to be surprised when there is no loyalty shown henceforth?
