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Non type rated easyjet recruitment?

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Non type rated easyjet recruitment?

Old 23rd Sep 2013, 15:14
  #1061 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hampshire physically; Perthshire and Pembrokeshire mentally.
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Quite so. 'Twas ever thus. When started in an airline 24 years ago it was on a reduced salary. Fortunately I had other ways of making up the shortfall. Four years later I was an SFO five years after that a captain. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
Wingswinger is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2013, 15:17
  #1062 (permalink)  
 
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It isn't avoiding the point at all.

Supply and demand sets the market price. You can manipulate and distort the market, but invariably water finds its own level eventually. If you think "Incumbents" or "I'm all right Jack" or "supply and demand" captains, are living in some sort of bubble, immune to the realities of the market, then you are deluding yourself. Few Captains or long experienced F/O's haven't seen their own terms and conditions significantly denuded over the last decade.

Gone are the Final salary pensions. Gone are many of the insurances, benefits and perks that used to be a regular feature. Gone is the idea of a comfy retirement at 55. Your "comfy captains" have had the opportunity to extend (in many cases) their working lives by up to 10 years, to in part help compensate for some of the reductions evident in their own terms and conditions.

When lo-cost carriers ascended over the last 15 years and in the process stripped out input costs wherever they could find them, did you think that wasn't going to involve wages, benefits and perks?


The "I'm alright Jack" and the"supply and demand" brigade are conveniently
overlooking that if life is so cushy for the incumbents, then perhaps they are
being paid to much, and said pay should be diverted to attract experienced
entrants, which at the moment it is failing to do. Not what we would seek, but
that's the flip side of arguing that we should suck up the ctc 'deal', because
that's all we are worth.
Perhaps they are, and perhaps they will. If so you can look forward to that road sign to your own future, which will arrive soon enough! However before you get too smug take a look over at the wannabes forum. There are hoards of 250 hour CPL holders who are clamouring for the floor sweepings. They would regard this type of work as all their birthdays rolled into one.

So at the top you have your experienced pilots who can sell their newly granted time extensions to compensate for their losses. At the bottom you have the gates bulging with wannabes desperate for their dream. That is a lot of oversupply and not a lot of unsatisfied demand.

How much are your services worth? I don't know! What is the market price in the UK, in the Middle East, in China?
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Old 23rd Sep 2013, 15:31
  #1063 (permalink)  
 
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If my sources are correct and I believe the are, ref experienced recruitment "it is not over until the fat lady sings". Easyjet have chanced their arm and it hasn't worked. But beware of getting too vocal on social media, it is not anonymous and may backfire on those who have been overtly anti.
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Old 23rd Sep 2013, 18:09
  #1064 (permalink)  
 
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Oh dear ADM! Seems I've hit a raw nerve. Well I'm going to call it a day here as I genuinely don't want to engage in a public spat with a random I've never met. Whatever cheek you choose to reply with, crack on as I won't be engaging further. 4 or 5 posts on this forum have wasted enough of my time. I'm glad to see that you have managed 660 and therefore don't have anything else to do with your sorry life. For the record, I don't like your sandwiches any more than I like your flexi contracts and I don't holiday in Malaga. If you joined Easyjet in the very beginning, then you may well have more experience as a pilot than me. You certainly have a good deal more arrogance than I do.

Let's see if I can make this point once again and maybe you will get it. Tricky for me without a brain in my head but I will try.

I have an issue with the pathetic offers coming out of Easyjet at the moment and I also have an issue with people defending them. That is all.

Here is what I have to offer to the forum. I have and know several people who have been through the recent recruitment process.

I and several others I met throughout the process were offered a flexi only deal which brings with it the chance to maybe after 12 months be offered a perm position. There is no NEC on offer to anyone I know. What is on offer is garbage but defend it as you wish, your choice.

This is the only point I am really making. An informed bit of feedback from someone who has been through selection. Even if you have been involved with NEC negotiation or BALPA work with Easyjet, you don't have anymore new info than I do!

My veiwpoint is based on fact as a recent candidate. The info should serve as help to anyone else out there unsure of what is on offer!
Any basis for your post ADM or is it just good old rumour?!
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Old 24th Sep 2013, 09:45
  #1065 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think it's necessary for anybody to have an "issue" with what easyJet are offering. You obviously made the right decision in turning easyJet down.
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Old 24th Sep 2013, 10:46
  #1066 (permalink)  
 
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Just to add a bit of clarity - in my assessment we were told that both permanent contracts & flexi-contracts were being offered (I have yet to meet or speak with ANYONE who has been offered a permanent contract - including a 737 Captain with 7000 hrs).

The flexi contracts on offer were paid per hour and there were no guaranteed minimum hours. We were also told, if on a flexi-contract, that we would be working for CTC and only after 12 months on an hourly contract would we be considered for employment by easyJet - again there were no guarantees. These are facts from someone who has attended the assessments. I know of several other people who also attended and they were told the same. If you look through these threads, you will actually find posts from people who have been offered a flexi-contract after being contacted by CTC.

With regards to this business about "market rates" & what is fair or not, I have to strongly disagree with lots of the comments on this board.

I have worked for almost 30 years and during that time I have NEVER been offered "what a company thought they could get away with". Every company I have ever worked for had a salary structure. Sometimes people had increments for length of service and experience levels. Basic salaries & terms however have always been the same for EVERYONE. Apart from the ethical side of things, finding out that the guy sat next to you (who may be better or worse at their job than you) is being paid more than you to do the same job is very destructive in a company. It is one of the quickest ways to de-motivate an entire workforce.

It is a sorry state of affairs that people are willing to accept that this is just the way it works. I can assure you it is not in most businesses. Zero hours contract themselves are unethical, destructive and undermine the strong commitment that companies and employees make to each other when offering & accepting employment. That's why the government will eventually outlaw them.

Zero hours contracts are only attractive to companies who can see as far as next weeks profit margin and can't see that their workforce feel under-valued and have been cheated by those in charge. Sticking a carrot in front of your nose saying you could earn 105K in five years doesn't sweeten the sickening taste in your throat at being offered the same contract as a temporary worker.

I wonder how many easyJet captains would be happy if tomorrow you were sent a letter saying you were being transferred onto a zero hours contract? I suspect none and quite rightly so. You should be valued & paid according to your professionalism and not what the company thinks it can get away with.

With regards interns & apprenticeships, it is understandable that when employing cadets with little experience that a reduced salary should be offered as they are essentially completing an apprenticeship. Please remember however, the guys applying for these direct entry positions are not teenagers, they are grown professionals with mortgages & families to feed.

Some of my friends who have been offered a flexi-contract simply cannot afford to accept the deal regardless of what they could earn in five years. Don't forget, they also have to stump up 20k for the type rating in return for an unknown salary during year 1, without the guarantee of a salary in year 2.

To have spent lots of time & money getting to a stage where you are offered a job you simply cannot afford to accept is absolutely sickening.

Its seems as is easyJet are saying "you may be good enough to fly our planes but your not that good that we have to pay you a salary you can afford to live on" or "you've passed the application stage, online assessments, interviews, group exercises, technical exams and a simulator assessment - now give us 20k and in return we can guarantee absolutely nothing - cos we think you're that desperate to earn 105k a year in five years, that we can get away we it".

If people on here don't get that, then the human race has fallen even further into the abyss than I had thought.
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Old 24th Sep 2013, 11:16
  #1067 (permalink)  
 
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You speak of it as you're being asked to jump into some unknown abyss. Many people have done the flexi route, the rostering isn't done separately, it would be fairly straight forward to figure out the minimum amount of hours you'd do over two years.

Yes I realise the contract isn't great, but with many airlines, when you join, you start at the bottom. As much as some of you are trying not to see it, there IS a contract structure within easyJet. You can't expect to be catapulted infront of many already here. This isn't Ryanair.

On the bright side, I'm glad that I won't have to sit next to some of you. Also, Mixchafoolayrich, you'd eat your hat if you know who and what kind of person ADM was.
EpsilonVaz is online now  
Old 24th Sep 2013, 11:51
  #1068 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: There
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Very well put Captthunder. Very clear and concise info about what is actually going on here!

Epsilon-no I would not eat my hat! I've learned many things in this life and one thing I do know is that the truth always seems to come out. My points are 100% true and based on facts; added to that my opinion of people who stand by and support this type of contract. You can't sit on the fence throughout your life if you want but sometimes people have to speak up and tell it like it is. ADM has lowered the tone and just replied with cheeky comments. If either of you want to message me further, do it privately and lets try and keep the forum on track.
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Old 24th Sep 2013, 13:31
  #1069 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
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AdM

You do need to verify your facts I suspect. Maybe that's what you are being told by the company/union. It is most definitely not the case.

Re your last post. You aren't talking to people who were turned down/never got an interview. You are talking to people here who were offered the job. I say Job in the loosest term possible. We were all from what I can see told to call CTC after the lady from Easyjet told us we were 'successful'. I thought this was strange when I applied for a job with easyjet which specifically asked for experienced pilots.

On calling CTC I was told the 'deal'. As outlined previously. One small point though, I was told 20k + VAT so it's 24k. Plus zero pay whilst training, pay for my own accomodation and board whilst training, pay my own uniform. To then fly for a year on an hourly rate. AS A CTC PILOT. NOT ONCE SINCE THEN DID EASYJET GET IN TOUCH.

After the year there is the possibility of joining on a permanent contract. That is what they said. Be in denial all you like but that's whats on the table. Be it for 10k hour guys on bigger stuff than easy flies, or 6k hour guys like myself, down to cadets.

You may pat yourselves on the back for what you think you saved us from. But you may as well not have bothered.

As for the argument that we will earn x in the LHS. Rubbish. Easy are showing their hand in what the future holds in Lisbon. Enjoy. And even if they did by some miracle pay current rates. It will take years to earn back the difference. Not to mention the basivc is actually on the low side anyway, just sector pay and bonuses which make it up.
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Old 24th Sep 2013, 20:18
  #1070 (permalink)  
 
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It is an appalling offer. I hope everyone tells them where to go. Am I actually right in saying that the union brokered this "deal"?
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Old 24th Sep 2013, 21:14
  #1071 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Age: 50
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Mix,

I'm sorry to hear you are so upset about they way you have been treated by easyJet. Despite what you think, I can assure you easyJet is an excellent company to work for. Those who jump through the frustrating hoops in the first couple of years are subsequently well rewarded... and not just financially.

I walked away from a final salary pension, a 320/330 mixed fleet dream(my arse), a LHR base and decent seniority. I took a sizeable drop in salary and didn't have a clue where I was going to be based until 4 weeks before joining. 3 years later I got my command and have never looked back. I won't bore you with the financial aspect of my package but, suffice to say, I've no complaints in that respect.

True, I didn't have to entertain any zero hours( it's just a name, no one flies zero hours) contract and I didn't have to pay for a type rating as I had lots of Airbus hours. However, I still think it is an excellent airline to join compared to any other currently recruiting and for that reason, it is worth accepting the Flexi deal with a view to subsequently getting a "proper" contract.

Of course, not everyone will accept the offer... that is their prerogative. Who cares if some middle aged experienced pilot turns down the offer? Absolutely no one. Next candidate please.....
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Old 24th Sep 2013, 21:36
  #1072 (permalink)  

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Despite what you think, I can assure you easyJet is an excellent company to work for.
I've said it before, but I don't think thats what you mean. I think you mean, "The T&C's at EZY are good once you get in the left hand seat."

Precious few other contributors to this thread, who aren't in the LHS, are saying the same....

In case you don't, for the sake of the contributors to this thread who have been on the end of the derisory offers from EZY, tell us why, despite this type of mercenary recruiting, they should aspire to work for such a Company?

Are you saying that, once in the Company, everything changes? What makes a good Company is how they deal with the non-contractual issues? A Company isn't an excellent Company just because they have good T&C's.

How are EZY "excellent", because the way they handle their recruitment is enough to crush any idea they are excellent....looking from the outside in?

Last edited by SR71; 24th Sep 2013 at 21:39. Reason: spelling
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Old 25th Sep 2013, 00:48
  #1073 (permalink)  
 
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I've said it before, but I don't think thats what you mean. I think you mean, "The T&C's at EZY are good once you get in the left hand seat."
As a UK Ezy SFO, I can confirm that the RHS is a pretty nice place to be once you've "jumped through the hoops".

I'm sorry but you just won't get the world given to you straight away in easy. It's just the way it is. The reason I bother continuously replying to these posts is that 1. I'm on days off and crew night in Crawley was pretty dead, girlfriend decided that she would rather watch Masterchef Australia and 2. It's relatively a really short period of time that you will be on a not so great contract before you will have a nice job with a good company.

If you want to work in the UK and don't work for BA, or want to work in France and don't work for AF, you'd be insane to turn the offer down.
EpsilonVaz is online now  
Old 25th Sep 2013, 01:28
  #1074 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 942
There are a number of you here who are offended by what is being offered despite having been told the exact deal by people like myself for a long time. I am frankly finding this discussion very wearing - you ARE being offered a permanent contract subject to passing a probationary year as a CTC pilot on a 42/hour basis. You will NOT do zero hours and therefore you will be paid - how many people have to tell you that before you believe it? Unless we face financial ruin or you royally mess up, you will be given a permanent contract as a Second Officer automatically at the end of that first year. That is straight from the horse's mouth. The deal is exactly as per the New Entrant Contract. The Company can put people in further up the scale if they choose, but that can only be a bonus rather than a negative feature. For those of you who think they should be told reasons why they should accept an offer from easyJet, I can only assume you must have an incredible deal lined-up somewhere - good luck.

What most people seem unable to grasp here is that, like Epsilon Vaz has said, this is a seniority system in all but name. You start off on poor terms and conditions (still way better than a turboprop outfit) and work your way up. De fumo in Flammam and others find being told the Captain's terms and conditions 'nauseating' because people are 'boasting' about what they get. No one is boasting about anything - the reason you are being told these figures is because it is what you will get too when you become a Captain. It is therefore material fact in the decision-making process.

I concur with the wise words of others who point out the facts of supply and demand. If easyJet cannot get the people they want they will bump up the deal, but if they can get 15 applicants for each job why would they offer more? Nonetheless, there seems to be plenty of you who seem to have way better offers and will be declining the opportunity to work for us. Given your antipathy towards easyJet at such an early stage in your careers, my strong advice would be to go off to Air Utopia where you are paid twice what we are and work half as hard. For the rest of you, come to easyJet as it is really a great place to be and offers the chance to fly with some great people, destinations and aircraft. Finally, I would strongly concur with the words of Brizzol and Epsilon Vaz, both of whom are very sensible in their advice.
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Old 25th Sep 2013, 02:37
  #1075 (permalink)  
 
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Wow folks so it looks like us that are looking at this negatively are doing so without cause, the contract is permanent after all and of course you will get plenty of hours.

My only question is, if that is the case why are you not employed by easyJet directly and offered guaranteed hours? All the recent replies seem to suggest that this is what you will get.

I can tell all that you that from what I have been told you are most definitely not guaranteed a position as I know 2 guys that have been let go in the last 2 years, both during the winter stand down and one only after 250ish hours with eJ. Before you argue they weren't up to the job this is not the case either, I understand one dared to question management that after spending ~25k on a type rating they needed some hours to feed their family, the answer was.... Good bye! The other was taken by another reputable airline and now seems to be very happy.

Just trying to keep the discussion balanced...
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Old 25th Sep 2013, 08:07
  #1076 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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ADM - I hope Mr P's post clarifies why this is a poor deal. 25k for a type rating. Easy are not prepared to guarantee your first years income nor that you will have a job at the end. If they were things might be very different but their not.

Regardless of what you might expect to happen, my bank won't take IOU's on the basis that we can EXPECT a minimum of x number of hours.

I like others have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay. I can't do that on an expectation.
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Old 25th Sep 2013, 08:22
  #1077 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Wo Ping

Very kind of you to post. However I will query some points, even though you won't reply.

Experience is useful but it doesn't automatically make you a good/ better pilot or good / more valuable employee - just a different one.
Is this how your airline justifies the vast amount of cheap inexperience it employs? I suspect that you'll find all experience is good experience. You just need a recruitment process strong enough to differentiate the good operators from the bad.

but after 12 months YOU WILL be able to take up a permanent easyjet contract
I have no first hand experience of this, though a chap I was flying with has an offer and showed me it. Great chap, few thousand in rhs of the 195. In the command process. But I diverse. The fact is no where does it say he is employed by easyjet or has a job for more than one year. Period. How can he take that to the bank and request a loan for 24k?

[quote]we'd like a healthy experience mix but in no way require it as cadets are excellent. Growth and time to command mean all command vacancies can be met by cadets for many years to come[ /QUOTE]

Ah but you do require it if you are to continue to be a safe airline. Like it or not it is a fact that concerns have been raised, by the CAA and by the insurance companies. Otherwise you will have an airline crewed exclusively by CTC in a few years time. Not a healthy or safe environment. Diversity and experience are both desirable to avoid clones flying your aircraft, and essential to safety.

Finally

progression will be quick. its an investment from both sides.
Where's the investment on your company side? Non existent.

Alexander.

It's a shame you find the discussion wearing, and I do admire your orangeness. However as I touched on, the consensus is no one is being offered more than a years CTC contract. Yes perhaps the intention is they will then be offered a job. But they aren't being offered it now. The only security they have is an hourly paid CTC deal. Which technically is a zero hours contract like it or not. And expires in one year.

And you need to look around. For most folks the only time the money will be better than they are currently on is when they get the LHS. Not before. And this doesn't take into account having to pay back the rating from taxed money. That to me shows long term commitment.

Thankfully I'm not looking to move, but from what i see and hear I suspect Jet 2 may fit your description of decent employers. Just a final thought.
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Old 25th Sep 2013, 08:41
  #1078 (permalink)  
 
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Ah but you do require it if you are to continue to be a safe airline. Like it or not it is a fact that concerns have been raised, by the CAA and by the insurance companies. Otherwise you will have an airline crewed exclusively by CTC in a few years time. Not a healthy or safe environment. Diversity and experience are both desirable to avoid clones flying your aircraft, and essential to safety.

And for how many years did BEA/BOAC/BA recruit exclusively through Hamble?
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Old 25th Sep 2013, 08:58
  #1079 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 1,998
Firstly a fact check:

Originally Posted by Mr-P
I can tell all that you that from what I have been told you are most definitely not guaranteed a position as I know 2 guys that have been let go in the last 2 years, both during the winter stand down and one only after 250ish hours with eJ. Before you argue they weren't up to the job this is not the case either, I understand one dared to question management that after spending ~25k on a type rating they needed some hours to feed their family, the answer was.... Good bye! The other was taken by another reputable airline and now seems to be very happy.
Not true. You may be relaying what you were told by these chaps, but the only people we have "let go" have been for dreadful attitude problems or ability issues (after extensive re-training). You do 12 months contractor work, then you get an interview. If you are one of the very few who fail, then you get a second crack after 6 months. If you fail again, then you are off.

However,

If the offer is not good enough for you, then politely decline it and carry on. Nothing lost, and you are doing a good thing for your own market. No need to rant on here!
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Old 25th Sep 2013, 09:48
  #1080 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bristol
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Get this 12 month probationary thing out of your heads. All employees are placed on a probationary period anyway. This can always be extended. You don't need to put someone on a temporary contract, employed by a third party to give them a probationary period. Its absolute nonsense.

The simple fact is if easyJet wanted to employ people on a permanent contract and offer them a salary equivalent to flying 750 hrs a year, they would.

To demonstrate how much nonsense these arrangements are, consider this;

Year 1 you are employed as a First Officer by CTC on 67 (there is a sliding scale of pay against factored hrs - I have over 7000hrs so would receive the highest hourly rate). We were told to expect a minimum of 750hrs = 50,250 gross income although easyJet will not guarantee ANY minimum income.

Year 2 you are employed as a Second Officer by easyJet on a set 38,000 gross income.

So in year 2 after successfully serving your "probationary period" your reward is demotion and a 12k pay cut.

Before any of you say this is incorrect, these arrangements are exactly how it was described at the assessment day.

Incidentally I know someone who flys for easy on a flexi-contract. In August (one of the busiest times of the year) they completed 60hrs of flying. In the unlikely event that you did this every month, with no holidays, sickness etc, thats 720hrs a year and not the "expect a minimum of 750hrs" we were told.

The simple fact is if easyJet were so confident about using people for 750 hrs per year and being able to employ them after 12 months, they would simply employ them. If things didn't work out during the first 6 months, they would extend the probationary period. If things still didn't work out after 12 months, they would say goodbye.

I am pretty bored of this thread now and think I'll call it a day. Good luck to you all in your endeavours. Things are starting to move in our industry and regardless of what people might say on here, there are plenty of companies who value experience and will pay a decent salary without you having to get yourself into all sorts of debt & anxiety about whether this months salary payment will be enough to cover your outgoings.
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