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Non type rated easyjet recruitment?

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Non type rated easyjet recruitment?

Old 25th Sep 2013, 08:53
  #1081 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 38
Sorry just a quick note for Hundredpercent - it cost me two days holiday, around 500 for flights & accomodation and weeks of preparation to attend my assessment day, only to find out I hadn't applied for a permanent position. So I'm afraid it has cost us all quite a lot.
Captthunder is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2013, 08:57
  #1082 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: The IMF.
Posts: 537
CaptThunder

They aren't interested.

The vast majority of easyJet captains understand that this CTC deal is iniquitous. And a bad deal for everyone, except CTC and easyJet.

You will always get sycophantic management climbers on here defending the indefensible.

All I'd say is this: if you have made up your mind to say no thanks, then move on to the next event. Life is too short for bad feeling. It'll kill you early.
Narrow Runway is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2013, 09:26
  #1083 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Here and there
Posts: 2
I could be wrong...

...but, maybe, we are all missing one point: I don't think a company can hire you and then ask you to pay by yourself for your training, just my very personal opinion but it doesn't sound 100% OK and it would explain a lot of things.
Cavokflyer is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2013, 11:15
  #1084 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,809
Here's a reminder of what was proposed:

Congratulations on getting through to the next stage of the recruitment process for the role of First Officer with easyJet. The interest in the opportunity has been significant and, as a result, competition for places with us has been tough, so you have done really well to get this far.

We are now completing our final review of applications and CVs and will be short listing the candidates that will be invited to an easyJet assessment centre in the next 2 weeks. If you are successful following final shortlisting you will receive an invitation to book yourself on to an assessment centre, so please look out for this and log in to see the available dates and times as soon as you can.

If you are invited to an assessment centre we will go through more information with you on the types of contract and locations which are available. However, just as a reminder, we will be offering both permanent and contract opportunities, both in the UK and across our mainland European bases. Contract opportunities also lead to a permanent easyJet contract, pending further assessment, after 12 months have elapsed.

We are really looking forward to meeting you. Please stay in touch and if anything should change in your circumstances which might affect your application, please contact us at [email protected]

Kind regards

Pilot Recruitment Team
Take note and ask yourselves what the hell they implied by saying "Contract opportunities also lead to a permanent position"?

They make you jump through hoops, waste your time, effort and money only to spit on you. The whole recruitment campaign is now looking like it was designed to be a smokescreen from the outset. BALPA applied pressure to have pilots from all sorts of backgrounds be given a chance. But the truth is, most air-breathing mature and wise adults could never accept such a poor deal. Are we to believe EZY didn't know that in the beginning? Well at least the airline can now turnaround and tell BALPA that they tried! Hiring more kids on zero hour slavery contracts with guarantee-less terms is the only thing that fits the EZY model of mega profits and there's nothing BALPA can do to negotiate salary terms for new hires! Case closed.


I despair.
Superpilot is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2013, 13:25
  #1085 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland mainly, rather than at home.
Posts: 387
Sell! Sell! Sell!

ADM. I like your positive slant. You are an excellent salesman. Fact is the contract does not give any guarantee of a permanent job, we only have what you call the horse's mouth for that. Horses don't stand up in court without written agreements behind behind them. This agreement gives nothing. It says so in black and white. A probationary period is a permanent contract for a company from day one. This is not. To call it so is no more than positive spin.
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Old 25th Sep 2013, 16:42
  #1086 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Huh huh huh ... what was the question again?
Posts: 309
I'm not going to comment on what is or isn't on offer here as it's been done many times so far, without seemingly getting anywhere. What I will say is that ADM is someone I have had the pleasure to fly with, has a wealth of knowledge, and is someone who's advice I would always give great consideration to applying. Beware dismissing what he says so easily. If this deal isn't for you I understand completely. I really do. Do what's right for you, having considered every aspect, and have no regrets. However, the likes of ADM, EcamSurprise and EpsilonVaz are spot on with the rewards and lifestyle that a permanent easyJet pilot enjoys. They aren't here to waste their own time rubbing anyone's noses in it. Believe it or not, they are trying to help you make a good decision. The right decision for you.

If it helps, I also joined as experienced crew on a zero hours contract a few years back and shared the same concerns (a volcano shutting down European airspace wasn't considered likely!!). However, I did work hard and made very good money. And yes, I did take a considerable paycut when I was made permanent. But it's a ladder to better things and in hindsight it was one of the best moves I could have made.

Good luck!
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Old 25th Sep 2013, 19:00
  #1087 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: EU
Age: 44
Posts: 862
Last post from me as I am going to be off spending my millions as long term easyJet employee.....

I totally understand the risk some people are unwilling to take moving from a permanent position with an existing airline to a contractors position with easyJet.

Just to back up what someone else has said on this thread the only pilot's let go have been those with attitude problems and skill problems. The former you can't do much about and the latter shouldn't apply as you're all professional pilot's.

When I was signed off as an FO in easyJet the TC said keep your nose clean and head under the parapet and you'll do fine. Never a truer word said.

It's sadly an employers market......
Phensocks is online now  
Old 26th Sep 2013, 09:23
  #1088 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 415
AdM, the wholly understandable problem that people have with this set-up is that these experienced pilots are far more likely to have wife/kids/mortgage and are therefore unable to accept the job offer as-is even if they really wanted to come and work for us.

While I think the current arrangement is entirely appropriate for cadets joining the airline, I think it is utterly inappropriate and frankly embaressing to offer the same terms to experienced pilots.

It also seems to serve no purpose, unless you can think of one, other than to let these people know who's boss.
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 09:58
  #1089 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: In a cave
Posts: 134
AdM

If Easy was offering a permanent contract as you so profusely testify then any company worth it's salt would put their employees on a permanent contract from day ONE and have it written into the contract that continuous employment is based on a 12 month probation. The whole idea of a "12 month" probation which then leads to a permanent contract is completely unnecessary and is nonsense. We all know why they are offering all these gradings - 12 month probation - 2 month SO - 12 month FO etc etc etc is purely to keep the cost down, nothing more, nothing less; that is their motive and you know it.
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 10:47
  #1090 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 415
AM, you shouldn't be surprised at Easyjet trying to cut costs when they can, and lets face it, they pretty much can at the moment. Easy were paying golden hellos 10 years ago. Now the opposite is the case. Ruthless cost control (and not just aimed at pilots - they don't pay a penny more for anything than they absolutely have to) is part of what makes it such a profitable company.

However, I don't see why its any more expensive to employ new joiners permanently from day 1. It certainly could be made to cost the same. Perhaps it's an accounting thing.
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 12:46
  #1091 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 415
Not convinced by the flex argument. We already have enforced 75% contracts and there is at any time one years worth of new cadets on fully flexi zero hours contracts. If flexibility was the issue then why not start experienced joiners on 75% perm contracts as I believe Monarch and Thompson do?
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 16:45
  #1092 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: here and there
Posts: 42
@HundredPercentPlease

Firstly a fact check:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr-P
I can tell all that you that from what I have been told you are most definitely not guaranteed a position as I know 2 guys that have been let go in the last 2 years, both during the winter stand down and one only after 250ish hours with eJ. Before you argue they weren't up to the job this is not the case either, I understand one dared to question management that after spending ~25k on a type rating they needed some hours to feed their family, the answer was.... Good bye! The other was taken by another reputable airline and now seems to be very happy.
Not true. You may be relaying what you were told by these chaps, but the only people we have "let go" have been for dreadful attitude problems or ability issues (after extensive re-training). You do 12 months contractor work, then you get an interview. If you are one of the very few who fail, then you get a second crack after 6 months. If you fail again, then you are off.

However,

If the offer is not good enough for you, then politely decline it and carry on. Nothing lost, and you are doing a good thing for your own market. No need to rant on here!
Just an observation, on the flip side unless you was personally involved with the letting go of the two individuals then your comment is only "relaying what you were told". To add to that what constitutes dreadful attitude problems? Perhaps a person who is upset they have spent a lot of money to then be told that they should only expect a few hours a month over the winter? Could this not simply be someone that is in dire straights as opposed to bad attitude? I don't know as I wasn't there, was you?

Just for the record I'm not in the eJ race to the bottom anyway. As for my "rant" I'm merely interested in pointing out glaring fact omissions and numbers that tend not to add up from persons I assume are inside eJ that tell all how wonderful it is. Just trying to keep the discussion balanced.
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 17:40
  #1093 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 23
HPP
I was trying not to get involved but your statement about people being chopped after extensive training it's utter rubbish. I know at least a half dozen of good guys being shown the doors over night for no good reason.
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 19:29
  #1094 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: At home
Posts: 26
Although contacts at airlines such as Monarch were 75% seasonal contracts to start with, no?
No they're not. I was 100% full time from day one. As was everybody else whom have joined since. To the best of my knowledge. We have more than enough guys volunteering for part time deals.

For reference to others, during my flexi crew years I did between 700 - 750 hours per year and my lowest hours in a winter month were 25 and my highest in a winter month were 100.
For reference I flew less than 700 in my one year at easy. Happy to give my entire month by month breakdown if anyone asks for it.

As I have said before, I have found easyJet very fair , compassionate and supportive during my time here and I genuinely like the culture we have.
Different people but Management are anything but to cabin crew. I can argue it's probably the same in many airlines. On the flip side I did enjoy the experience I gained from working there. 99% the Capts and Crews were top notch excellent routes and brand new A/C. Just such a shame the terms and conditions are poor for new entrants with experience. I personally think the NEC for cadets is an improvement to what I started on. Well done to the guys for saying no to Merlin and getting something better. However I don't believe an NEC is appropriate for someone with 3,500+ hours experience in this environment.

Why are they not employing experienced guys on an easy pay scale in line with relative experience and factored hours? Because CTC and easy can make far more money charging the pilot for the cost of type rating and still operate with maximum flexibility and minimum risk that's why. I don't agree with that working practice, especially with guys with experience. It's less than ideal for cadets either but it's better than three years ago.

As a "final thought" it maybe worth considering this.
I have a number of good mates still at easy. Some of those that have recently been employed on permanent contracts or about to but are on a 75% basis. Full time during summer and two weeks on and two weeks off during winter. If most of the current flexi-crew pilots are only being offered 75% now, how confident will you be that 100% contracts will be available in 12-18 months time once you've completed a years service under flexi-screw?

Personally I would be very doubtful of seeing a 100% contract after being on flexi for a year. I would actually be very doubtful to see a permanent contract full stop. Be under no illusions guys. If easy do not require your services after being on a flexi crew contract they will not offer you a permanent position. In fact it was my understanding that you can now only do flexi crew for the maximum of a year under the NEC. If they don't need you after a year and you're not supposed to do it any longer you'll probably get two choices. Either voluntarily carry on as flexi or accept your 30 day notice. Not a risk I would want to take after spending 24k.

Now I admit the chances of being surplus to requirements after a year on flexi maybe slim. But if the airline (or other posters on here) are saying look at the bigger picture and long term. Why can't easy employee and bond you for three years? Like they used to do. If you don't meet the requirements then you'll be let go and as per the bond agreement you'll be asked to pay a portion of it back. I think most experienced pilots would be happy to sign that agreement.

Great place to work yes. Best deal easy could come up with, no.
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Old 27th Sep 2013, 02:42
  #1095 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 2,286
Sprinkles,

Quite a few of the new entrants have been offered 75% in the last few months. But many have been converted to 100% - the reason was the exact planning for winter hadn't been completed, so we had to offer something (as per the NEC transitional arrangements) and you can't offer 100% and convert it to 75% but you can 75% and then upgrade it.

FO 75% with sector pay pays slightly more than SO.

75% contracts are done on seniority/base, so should not last long. 12 months flexi is a contractual maximum. The reason it is done that way is to allow the company to take liberties - most notably with re-basing and seasonality. It's a crap 12 months.

However, for the third (!) time, all of this is for new entrants, not DEPs. If easyJet think they can get away with offering the NEC to DEPs and it is too low for you, then just politely decline. I would.

Mac72,

I appreciate the frustration you must be feeling still working as a FI and unable to get in, even with that shiny A320 rating. I imagine you may well have heard from some of the pilots who have been "shown the door overnight for no good reason". EcamSurprise has it right though - we have never chucked someone out for no good reason - it's simply a waste of money and you know we don't do that. Ones that have been hoofed out have been for stuff that you would expect to be hoofed out for. Watching a movie in the cruise - in line training. Doing airport standby from home. Reading a magazine during SEP training and stating to the SEP trainer "this is not for me, I'm a pilot". Saying to the Capt during a pre-flight brief when looking up from texting "I don't give a sh!t". The performance issues are nearly all landing ones (lots of TOGA10 take overs, or damaged aircraft). As EcamSurprise says, none of these guys are going to tell you that they got chucked out for being a tit or because they can't fly - they are bound to describe the event as "for no reason". And yes, I am (slightly indirectly) involved.

PS - we did have a group that were taken on for a summer only and who were quite upset when their contract ended. But it was all explained before they signed, it's just they thought eJ would change their minds. It could have been those you were talking to, but it's unlikely given that most came back a few months later.
HundredPercentPlease is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2013, 10:05
  #1096 (permalink)  
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: TOD
Posts: 1,350
Hi, does anyone know how many swimmers are currently in the Talent Pool awaiting the offer of a contract?
speedrestriction is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2013, 01:25
  #1097 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 942
Arctic Monkey - you said, AdM

"If Easy was offering a permanent contract as you so profusely testify then any company worth it's salt would put their employees on a permanent contract from day ONE and have it written into the contract that continuous employment is based on a 12 month probation. The whole idea of a "12 month" probation which then leads to a permanent contract is completely unnecessary and is nonsense. We all know why they are offering all these gradings - 12 month probation - 2 month SO - 12 month FO etc etc etc is purely to keep the cost down, nothing more, nothing less; that is their motive and you know it."

First of all, if you consider easyJet not a 'decent company worth its salt', you should not be thinking of joining us. Go to another company that is worth its salt and be happy there. Secondly, I disagree about the 12 month probation being too long - in reality there will be a handful of people who are not taken on, and there is no reason why everyone should not be. All you have to do is not be a dork and be competent at your job - it is really not that difficult. You will find the easyJet training system as benign and supportive as any you will come across in the industry. Finally, you are absolutely right - easyJet's intention is to keep down their costs - some would say that is good management. There is not a airline in the world looking to pay more than they have to just because they could. We are in a viciously competitive market with companies like Norwegian, Vueling and Ryanair breathing down our necks. In addition the legacy carriers are beginning to sort themselves out at last and start attacking their cost base. Therefore we need to keep a competitive advantage. That means we pay a little when you join and you work up from there, in what is essentially a seniority system in all but name. Love easyJet or hate them, they are an incredibly successful company who have made an increasing profit in some of the harshest economic conditions every single year of their existence - this year will be no exception. They offer a job security that is second to none. You will fly brand new aircraft to a range of destinations few other airlines can dream of. The vast majority of people you will fly with are great people. There are promotion opportunities that simply do not exist elsewhere. I am not trying to say that black is white, but I am trying to be realistic. Th is is not a perfect job , but it is a very good one, as many others are saying - I personally believe it is one of the top jobs in the airline industry other than working for a national carrier. Good luck to you if you can get that - but for everyone else this is as good as it gets.

I understand that many of you here think you are being robbed - that is fine, but do not come and work here. No one is going to enjoy your professional life for you - if you come here on Day One believing you are working for a rubbish company then that is what it will be. I go to work every day to enjoy myself and invariably do. Find the perfect company for you and go for it. This is supply and demand - if you are offered a job with us and turn it down, there are countless others who would step into your place and do it for even less than you are being offered. It is a harsh fact of life, but utterly true. I truly wish you all well in the decisions you have to take - my strong advice is to listen to some of the people out there who have been where you are and are glad they joined.
Alexander de Meerkat is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2013, 10:00
  #1098 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 38
Adm - I think the reason some people have accused you of being arrogant on here (and I am not one of those people) is that a lot of your posts sound like you may think that easyJet are doing us a favour by offering us a job.

If I were a cadet looking for my first flying job, I may well agree with you. However I am a professional pilot with over 7000hrs flying experience. Most of the guys I met during the recruitment process had lots of similar experience. I can tell you without exaggerating that I had an excellent assessment day & sim session.

To expect a professional pilot with years of experience to give up a secure and well paid job, hand over 24k for a type rating, not pay them for 2 months whilst their training and paying for their own accommodation (the whole thing would cost me around 35 - 40k) for a job worth an unknown amount in the first year and no guarantees of a second year simply isn't gonna cut the mustard.

I was very much looking forward to a career in easyJet. However, loosing 40k in cash and loss of earnings even before I have started work and then sweating on whether there will be a job at the end of year one is not for me. It would take me around 5 - 7 years to recover this "investment" if everything went according to plan and that assumes theres no downturn in the meantime. I suspect that the only people you'll get taking this scheme are those who hate their jobs and the desperate (no disrespect intended).

Incidentally since applying to easyJet, I have had two more job offers and have two more interviews lined up. None of these prospective employers have asked me to pay for a type rating or go unpaid for a few months, let alone take a temporary contract paying me by the hour, with no minimum guarantee. They are investing in me and I am committing to them. One thing people should not forget is that companies are run by people - a lot of these people have been in our shoes in the past.

As I have said before, theres lots of movement in our industry. Hopefully there will be lots more movement and conditions will improve as airlines have to start treating people fairly to attract them.

It would be financial suicide to accept a job with easyJet so they are doing me no favours whatsoever. If anything, they've made the decision quite easy for me. I suspect the majority of professional pilots who have been offered the same deal will agree and you will be left employing the bottom of the barrel, all worrying about how much debt their in.

Of course, safety is our number one priority.

Last edited by Captthunder; 29th Sep 2013 at 12:28.
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Old 30th Sep 2013, 15:26
  #1099 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,263
Nice idea but it didn't work.

Going back through the mists of time, airlines used to provide type ratings to selected candidates on the basis of need and mutual trust. Fast forward to two decades ago, and bonds became the norm, whereby you signed a contract agreeing to repay the employers training costs (usually on a sliding scale) if you left their employment within a certain time period. The problem was, (and if you can search back far enough through these very same forums you will find ample evidence,) that many people who decided to breach the contracts felt they could do so with impunity, and whether that proved true or not, it placed the time and costs of recovery firmly in the employers court.

The advent of the Lo-Co's simply accelerated the concept that "your training costs are your responsibility." You carry the responsibility and the risk. The airline can assume you will be just as honourable and committed, but just in case you aren't, you will be picking up a significant share of the tab.

Some companies do still assume risk for the bond, but it doesn't sit well in the ryanisation concept of low cost strategy.
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Old 30th Sep 2013, 17:58
  #1100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Bartholomew Arms
Posts: 204
CaptainT, why should those equally qualified but less fortunate than you be dismissed as the bottom of the barrel? Maybe their situation is such that accepting the poor deal at easy with its inherent risks is actually better than their present position. Just because you can't accept it doesn't mean you need to denigrate those that do.
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