Non type rated easyjet recruitment?
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Captthunder
It is a no brainer.
Your mate has to say no.
He could lose everything and it is all for a Flexi contract.
easyJet and CTC, by sinking to such levels, are like a cancer that has spread. It reaches every last area and is terminal.
Your mate has to say no.
He could lose everything and it is all for a Flexi contract.
easyJet and CTC, by sinking to such levels, are like a cancer that has spread. It reaches every last area and is terminal.
Last edited by Narrow Runway; 21st Aug 2013 at 08:49.
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Pitotheat
I think you're talking rubbish there. It is because they would have to pay the going rate to type rated guys, with no bond. This way they make a profit on the course, and pay them peanuts with no commitment from EZY. And if the company was trying to screw future commands for FO's how is it a rosy future. Looks to me like the company is desperate to screw pilots at every stage.
Stiglet. What rewards are you talking about. Do you get pots of gold on the side. From what I can see it's a crap starting salary, an even worse rip off for the course, followed by a distinctly average salary throughout the career.
It's an interesting thread. However I don't think it's the rosy place all the EZY guys are painting. Sure if you're a 10 or 15 year skipper it's good. But joining now you will always be on the back foot. Lets face it it's not BA. This queue of potential joiners are only interested because there is nothing else. Lifestyle. Not really. Guys I used to fly with who are there say it's killing them. especially the 5 earlies. I don't know one long term skipper who still loves it. And a few who are looking at various bus contracts overseas to get out.
Just pointing out it's not all rosy. Worth a thought before you shell out 24k plus the sundry costs.
The answer is there is no business case but it is a sign of hard lobbying by Pilots
Stiglet. What rewards are you talking about. Do you get pots of gold on the side. From what I can see it's a crap starting salary, an even worse rip off for the course, followed by a distinctly average salary throughout the career.
It's an interesting thread. However I don't think it's the rosy place all the EZY guys are painting. Sure if you're a 10 or 15 year skipper it's good. But joining now you will always be on the back foot. Lets face it it's not BA. This queue of potential joiners are only interested because there is nothing else. Lifestyle. Not really. Guys I used to fly with who are there say it's killing them. especially the 5 earlies. I don't know one long term skipper who still loves it. And a few who are looking at various bus contracts overseas to get out.
Just pointing out it's not all rosy. Worth a thought before you shell out 24k plus the sundry costs.
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Captain Thunder
I have tried to explain about what the company is doing to the best of my knowledge. Whilst the offer for TR and non TR pilots could be better the company have responded to market forces.
As for your friend, she or he has to make their own mind up. The situation she or he finds themselves in is not new. I switched careers after 20 years in one field where I had been promoted several times and was on a very good salary. I chucked that in to become a flying instructor earning a quarter of my previous salary. A year later I was flying TP on barely anymore money. I too had a young family and a mortgage to consider. It took me 7 years during some rapid airline expansion to get back to my salary level. On top of that my final salary pension was forfeited. My story or your friends story is not unusual in our profession. Our strength of the love of flying has become our weakness in that we will make great personal sacrifices to realise our dreams. Unfortunately our passion is now being used by accountants and MBA graduates against us.
I hope your friend makes a decision they can live with. They will need the love and support of their family and friends.
I have tried to explain about what the company is doing to the best of my knowledge. Whilst the offer for TR and non TR pilots could be better the company have responded to market forces.
As for your friend, she or he has to make their own mind up. The situation she or he finds themselves in is not new. I switched careers after 20 years in one field where I had been promoted several times and was on a very good salary. I chucked that in to become a flying instructor earning a quarter of my previous salary. A year later I was flying TP on barely anymore money. I too had a young family and a mortgage to consider. It took me 7 years during some rapid airline expansion to get back to my salary level. On top of that my final salary pension was forfeited. My story or your friends story is not unusual in our profession. Our strength of the love of flying has become our weakness in that we will make great personal sacrifices to realise our dreams. Unfortunately our passion is now being used by accountants and MBA graduates against us.
I hope your friend makes a decision they can live with. They will need the love and support of their family and friends.
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It's easy to comment from the sidelines and when not in the position of being unemployed or in an unhappy job but on the whole I agree with James Brown. It's a very average offer and you work bloody hard in Easy. I know lots of people and there are above average levels of wingeing!! Shattered people with no life balance. Good type rating thou and secure employment. Tough call! All opinions on here are valid. Read it all and you decide! One size does not fit all. That's my advice!
Solidarity and boycotting a recruitment drive between people who don't know each other and are not related is a bit of an impossible call thou. Be great if it was possible but its totally unrealistic. To think it is possible and be promoting that is.... well.... poor advice. You will miss out always due to a poor, idealistic decision making process.
Just my thoughts!
Solidarity and boycotting a recruitment drive between people who don't know each other and are not related is a bit of an impossible call thou. Be great if it was possible but its totally unrealistic. To think it is possible and be promoting that is.... well.... poor advice. You will miss out always due to a poor, idealistic decision making process.
Just my thoughts!
Lord Spandex Masher
I don't see the logic of your belief in me being responsible for the deterioration in T&C in easyJet or the industry. I for one have stood up to be counted in that arena; have you?
James
Yes we all accept the starting salary is not good but it does improve with opportunities that come up more rapidly than most other airlines especially if you get in early.
As for the rewards, I believe the package compares favourably ith other UK airlines: a) easyJet salary when permanent is fair, b) good loyalty bonus, c) access to SAYE and BAYE schemes which have benefited from the share price, d) bonus scheme if targets are met, e) adhoc free shares which have been given regularly, f) salary sacrifice available to uplift pension contributions if you wish, g) opportunities to move to Europe if that is where your heart lies, h) P/T opportunities, i) reasonable employer.
Conversely we do work hard.
So if you want to be based in the UK, home every night, flying good well maintained equipment, with as secure an airline as there is today then they don't come much better.
Short term pain yes, most of us have been though that at some point. I sympathise, but if you can take the hit, and I know that is very subjective then I believe the gamble will be worth it in the long run.
Good luck to all and I hope you get the opportunity to make that decison for yourself.
PS James - I'm a long term skipper and I still love it. Now you do know one.
I don't see the logic of your belief in me being responsible for the deterioration in T&C in easyJet or the industry. I for one have stood up to be counted in that arena; have you?
James
Yes we all accept the starting salary is not good but it does improve with opportunities that come up more rapidly than most other airlines especially if you get in early.
As for the rewards, I believe the package compares favourably ith other UK airlines: a) easyJet salary when permanent is fair, b) good loyalty bonus, c) access to SAYE and BAYE schemes which have benefited from the share price, d) bonus scheme if targets are met, e) adhoc free shares which have been given regularly, f) salary sacrifice available to uplift pension contributions if you wish, g) opportunities to move to Europe if that is where your heart lies, h) P/T opportunities, i) reasonable employer.
Conversely we do work hard.
So if you want to be based in the UK, home every night, flying good well maintained equipment, with as secure an airline as there is today then they don't come much better.
Short term pain yes, most of us have been though that at some point. I sympathise, but if you can take the hit, and I know that is very subjective then I believe the gamble will be worth it in the long run.
Good luck to all and I hope you get the opportunity to make that decison for yourself.
PS James - I'm a long term skipper and I still love it. Now you do know one.
Last edited by stiglet; 21st Aug 2013 at 10:54. Reason: adding the PS
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Make that 3. Obviously as rare as hens teeth these happy ezy pilots 
My post just beaten to the ether so now there are 4!
My post just beaten to the ether so now there are 4!
Last edited by pitotheat; 21st Aug 2013 at 11:26.
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With "opportunities" like this supply will ALWAYS outstrip demand and, therefore, contribute to the continuous deterioration of such "opportunities". There is no reason whatsoever for companies like Easy to offer anything better and you can bet your arse that it'll only get worse for the next "opportunity".
Not sure I'd call what you're doing as standing up and being counted.
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I have been reading this thread with interest for some time. I applied as a rated FO and was invited for assessment and SIM back in July. 2 days after my SIM I received a called from Easy HR claiming that because of “excellent” performance during the process they would like to reward me with an offer, the offer in question ended up being a Flexi contract through Parc based in LGW. This came as a huge disappointment to me, like everyone else I applied through the easy web site on the basis that full time positions would be available; otherwise I could have just applied via Parc any time over the last 4 years. I very politely rejected their “offer” and explained that I am only interested in a full time position (a point which I also made very clear during interview), no problem she said and I was placed back on the list and if a full time slot comes available they will call, well that was 2 months ago and the phone has not rung.
The same thing has happened to almost everyone I know that attended the rated assessments. I know of nobody that has received an offer for full time employment. I am now almost certain that Easy have no intension of offering full time contracts to new entrants unless they struggle with numbers prepared to accept Flexi crew (which lets face it, they wont). After all the stress, hassle, time and expense of preparing for the interview, assessment and SIM it would appear that my success and future career with Easy came down to one question “what contract type are you interested in”.
Anyway my point is, lots of people are asking about the salary and the benefits and the differences between FO and SFO, trying to decided if 20K is a good investment, but actually the salary is irrelevant because everyone will be offered “pay as you go” flying. Yes it might eventually lead one day to a full time job, they say 1 year, but who knows it could be 2,3,4 or even never and that’s a big gamble for someone with a family and a mortgage to pay. If people are trying to make this decision they should at least have the relevant facts. If you accept a Flexi contract on the basis that you might one day get a full time position you are putting a lot of faith in a company that have openly demonstrated they don’t want employees.
Everyone’s situation is different so I am not making any judgments about the rights and wrongs of people accepting but as a professional it bothers me that pilots are being selected not on their ability or experience but on their willingness to accept sub standard working conditions. Whatever people decide good luck, just sharing my experience and thoughts.
The same thing has happened to almost everyone I know that attended the rated assessments. I know of nobody that has received an offer for full time employment. I am now almost certain that Easy have no intension of offering full time contracts to new entrants unless they struggle with numbers prepared to accept Flexi crew (which lets face it, they wont). After all the stress, hassle, time and expense of preparing for the interview, assessment and SIM it would appear that my success and future career with Easy came down to one question “what contract type are you interested in”.
Anyway my point is, lots of people are asking about the salary and the benefits and the differences between FO and SFO, trying to decided if 20K is a good investment, but actually the salary is irrelevant because everyone will be offered “pay as you go” flying. Yes it might eventually lead one day to a full time job, they say 1 year, but who knows it could be 2,3,4 or even never and that’s a big gamble for someone with a family and a mortgage to pay. If people are trying to make this decision they should at least have the relevant facts. If you accept a Flexi contract on the basis that you might one day get a full time position you are putting a lot of faith in a company that have openly demonstrated they don’t want employees.
Everyone’s situation is different so I am not making any judgments about the rights and wrongs of people accepting but as a professional it bothers me that pilots are being selected not on their ability or experience but on their willingness to accept sub standard working conditions. Whatever people decide good luck, just sharing my experience and thoughts.
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I agree with de fumo, it's easy to get desperate, vulnerable pilots who will do anything for a job and bring their train wreck life to EZY. Colgan Airlines, did it and look where it got them.
As for the happy EZY skippers, well I would be too if I was on a six figure salary, stable job, fixed roster, UK base I wanted and all the lovely things that are not on offer in this contract. EZY are trying to screw you at your point of entry into the company and will do the same in the future. The next big assault will be on Captain pay and that will be when the next "bump" in the industry happens. If I was joining EZY now, I would never expect the current Captain deal.
As for how to negotiate a fair deal for new joiners? Well, how about safety? Do you really want to recruit experienced pilots who are being stung for a large lump sum and then paid badly and given zero security? Do you think these guys will be well rested, not turn up sick and speak up regarding safety concerns? What would the financial impact of a Colgan style crash be on EZY? What, the new joiner may earn in 5-10 years is irrelevant, if a large number of employees are marginalized and put into a crisis by deals like this.
I was hoping that this recruitment drive would see a return to the old TRSS scheme which was neither a financial giveaway for the company nor an exploitative deal for the new joiner.
As for the happy EZY skippers, well I would be too if I was on a six figure salary, stable job, fixed roster, UK base I wanted and all the lovely things that are not on offer in this contract. EZY are trying to screw you at your point of entry into the company and will do the same in the future. The next big assault will be on Captain pay and that will be when the next "bump" in the industry happens. If I was joining EZY now, I would never expect the current Captain deal.
As for how to negotiate a fair deal for new joiners? Well, how about safety? Do you really want to recruit experienced pilots who are being stung for a large lump sum and then paid badly and given zero security? Do you think these guys will be well rested, not turn up sick and speak up regarding safety concerns? What would the financial impact of a Colgan style crash be on EZY? What, the new joiner may earn in 5-10 years is irrelevant, if a large number of employees are marginalized and put into a crisis by deals like this.
I was hoping that this recruitment drive would see a return to the old TRSS scheme which was neither a financial giveaway for the company nor an exploitative deal for the new joiner.
Last edited by Fair_Weather_Flyer; 21st Aug 2013 at 15:21.
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FWF
Now I know what you expect as a new joiner to a company I will try to find a suitable employer. To summarise:
Funded TR
6 figure salary
Good pension
Generous bonus scheme payable in a mixture of cash and shares
UK base of your choice
Fixed pattern roster
You want all that now.
And you have to offer some experience on non Airbus type. Your training risk is unquantifiable. Your previous training, character, aptitude, sickness, attitude to work and ability to adopt the company culture all unquantifiable.
No problem I will get back to you with a suitable employer ASAP. Just leave it with me.
Now I know what you expect as a new joiner to a company I will try to find a suitable employer. To summarise:
Funded TR
6 figure salary
Good pension
Generous bonus scheme payable in a mixture of cash and shares
UK base of your choice
Fixed pattern roster
You want all that now.
And you have to offer some experience on non Airbus type. Your training risk is unquantifiable. Your previous training, character, aptitude, sickness, attitude to work and ability to adopt the company culture all unquantifiable.
No problem I will get back to you with a suitable employer ASAP. Just leave it with me.
Lord
I'm not extolling the virtues of this offer. What I'm trying to say is once in and on permanent contracts the conditions are OK and the renumeration is reasonable. Most of us didn't start on good contracts. I struggled for 5 years on poor pay and long hours, and later had to move from the LHS to the RHS with the corresponding drop in salary to move to where I wanted to be. That was my choice and that may be what some have to consider now and it is not an easy decision especially if you have a family.
FWF
I'm not saying this is perfect, I'm not saying this is even good and sure enough there are other offers that could have been made. However this is the hand that has been dealt and the vacancies will be filled. Moaning about it is, in my opinion, not going to improve the offer. For those then who are offered the position there may be a dilemma. What is also true is that in part this offer to rated or experienced pilots has come about by a push from those inside so don't keep harping on to us about supporting fellow pilots.
De fumo
easy will get the pilots who feel they can cope with the situation and it is an insult to them for you to assume they will only be the ones with low or questionable experience. The sad situation is that we will undoubtably miss out on some very good candidates who for all sorts of reasons cannot accept it, but that is life.
As has been said before if easy don't get sufficient candidates they will just go back to only recruiting direct from the schools. I hope for those of you who don't accept the offer there are no regrets in a few years.
Either way I'm not pushing this offer, I'm just pleased for the sake of pilots who have chosen a different route into the airlines that easy are now considering employing from a wider pilot base.
I'm not extolling the virtues of this offer. What I'm trying to say is once in and on permanent contracts the conditions are OK and the renumeration is reasonable. Most of us didn't start on good contracts. I struggled for 5 years on poor pay and long hours, and later had to move from the LHS to the RHS with the corresponding drop in salary to move to where I wanted to be. That was my choice and that may be what some have to consider now and it is not an easy decision especially if you have a family.
FWF
I'm not saying this is perfect, I'm not saying this is even good and sure enough there are other offers that could have been made. However this is the hand that has been dealt and the vacancies will be filled. Moaning about it is, in my opinion, not going to improve the offer. For those then who are offered the position there may be a dilemma. What is also true is that in part this offer to rated or experienced pilots has come about by a push from those inside so don't keep harping on to us about supporting fellow pilots.
De fumo
easy will get the pilots who feel they can cope with the situation and it is an insult to them for you to assume they will only be the ones with low or questionable experience. The sad situation is that we will undoubtably miss out on some very good candidates who for all sorts of reasons cannot accept it, but that is life.
As has been said before if easy don't get sufficient candidates they will just go back to only recruiting direct from the schools. I hope for those of you who don't accept the offer there are no regrets in a few years.
Either way I'm not pushing this offer, I'm just pleased for the sake of pilots who have chosen a different route into the airlines that easy are now considering employing from a wider pilot base.
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A lot of ifs buts and maybes here folks. If EZY don't move the goalposts you may get these big salaries if you get a command in a decent timeframe. Given that the biggest shareholder is lobbying for a slowdown in expansion and for fleet replacement instead where will the commands come from? Oh thats right, from the people leaving as fast as they can for BA/Emirates/Virgin/Monarch. Met an old friend who flies a biz jet having left EZY a while back. Loves it, and earns more.
Home every night. Yep, but at what time, 0200, 0300? Or if on earlies leave the house at 0400? Not exactly high quality home time.
Don't be mistaken. I like EZY and they have been a tremendous success story. But a balanced argument must be heard, especially for those who are in turmoil about spending in the area of £26k all in, up front, cash in return for a rubbish starting salary, no permanent contract and no doubt a move to LGW.
John Smith. Have you in fact stopped to wonder why the European bases are on a much better deal than the UK? I'd be annoyed if I were a UK based Captain and I met a French based FO on more than me. In fact I had the pleasure of meeting a French based chap recently in Lyon who laughed at how he is much better off remaining an FO there than taking a command and the mandatory move to LGW. You also mention Lisbon. That is what EZY want to, and eventually will do to all new crew. Do you think the disparity is a mistake, or was done to look after the French guys? No. they will do their worst to you they can get away with, as is demonstrated there. I'd be interested in your view on these disparities EZY chaps.
Good luck to all those in the process. I for one am glad I'm not, and didn't attempt to be. Regional flying may be less well remunerated by 20% or more, but I get home by 2100 at the latest, or leave at 0700 earliest. That is what I call home every night.
As a postscript I do agree with the posts which say solidarity on an individual level is a waste. You won't get a better offer at EZY. And over time only worse. There is a queue of inexperienced children with papa's cash in their back pocket who will take it. Which I suspect is what EZY are looking for, they just tried it on a bit in the meantime to see how desperate those with experience really are. If you want your experience to be taken seriously I suspect Jet 2 is the place for you. Or business aviation at the upmarket level, where these salaries are bottom end.
Best Wishes to everyone on this post.
Home every night. Yep, but at what time, 0200, 0300? Or if on earlies leave the house at 0400? Not exactly high quality home time.
Don't be mistaken. I like EZY and they have been a tremendous success story. But a balanced argument must be heard, especially for those who are in turmoil about spending in the area of £26k all in, up front, cash in return for a rubbish starting salary, no permanent contract and no doubt a move to LGW.
John Smith. Have you in fact stopped to wonder why the European bases are on a much better deal than the UK? I'd be annoyed if I were a UK based Captain and I met a French based FO on more than me. In fact I had the pleasure of meeting a French based chap recently in Lyon who laughed at how he is much better off remaining an FO there than taking a command and the mandatory move to LGW. You also mention Lisbon. That is what EZY want to, and eventually will do to all new crew. Do you think the disparity is a mistake, or was done to look after the French guys? No. they will do their worst to you they can get away with, as is demonstrated there. I'd be interested in your view on these disparities EZY chaps.
Good luck to all those in the process. I for one am glad I'm not, and didn't attempt to be. Regional flying may be less well remunerated by 20% or more, but I get home by 2100 at the latest, or leave at 0700 earliest. That is what I call home every night.
As a postscript I do agree with the posts which say solidarity on an individual level is a waste. You won't get a better offer at EZY. And over time only worse. There is a queue of inexperienced children with papa's cash in their back pocket who will take it. Which I suspect is what EZY are looking for, they just tried it on a bit in the meantime to see how desperate those with experience really are. If you want your experience to be taken seriously I suspect Jet 2 is the place for you. Or business aviation at the upmarket level, where these salaries are bottom end.
Best Wishes to everyone on this post.
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As Stiglet has said I think the deal is crap but that the places will be filled.
@James Brown, where do I start?
Commands are slowing down, new cadets have been told to expect 7-8 years to command.
Where are these skippers going to go to create the command vacancies? The only shock to easyjet's attrition forecast was DEC at EK where we lost 29 I believe, are they going to recruit DEC again? There has never been a mass exit for the doors, the likes of BA recruit perhaps 100 DEP's per year from across the industry?, Virgin is a basket case, Captains really leaving to become FO's at Monarch? Really?! Yes your friend who flies a biz jet may well love it and it suits him very well and earns more but it's a even more fickle business and I like being in my bed every night.
On average I am home at 2300 on lates and leave the house at 0530 on earlies. Yes the days are long but I still have a great quality of life. Everyone is different though.
@James Brown do you actually know why the Continental bases are on such a better deal than the UK pilots or do you want me to tell you? 
Mainly due to the €:£ exchange rate. The Golden contract which was the Spanish contract (basic circa €140,000) which sadly doesn't exist anymore was poo poo'ed by the UK workforce as being paltry when it was created at the then exchange rate of £1:€1.45 in 2006 as it had no pension etc. Cue a falling pound and you've got UK pilots falling over themselves to get into Madrid. The same goes for CDG and MXP. When they were created they weren't that great but when the pound fell it became the promised land, for the commuter. Ask a euro pilot about his euromillions and most say it's bloody expensive over there especially if you are single as for families there are many tax breaks. Do I want to see contracts re-evaluated every time a currency falls or rises? No thanks. If you're paid in £ and spend in £ it makes no difference, likewise for the €. So are the euro contracts better off because of their tub thumping unions or is it historically because of the exchange rate when the contracts were created. It's a bit of both but mainly because of the latter.
@James Brown, where do I start?
Commands are slowing down, new cadets have been told to expect 7-8 years to command.
Oh thats right, from the people leaving as fast as they can for BA/Emirates/Virgin/Monarch.
On average I am home at 2300 on lates and leave the house at 0530 on earlies. Yes the days are long but I still have a great quality of life. Everyone is different though.
Have you in fact stopped to wonder why the European bases are on a much better deal than the UK? I'd be annoyed if I were a UK based Captain and I met a French based FO on more than me.
Mainly due to the €:£ exchange rate. The Golden contract which was the Spanish contract (basic circa €140,000) which sadly doesn't exist anymore was poo poo'ed by the UK workforce as being paltry when it was created at the then exchange rate of £1:€1.45 in 2006 as it had no pension etc. Cue a falling pound and you've got UK pilots falling over themselves to get into Madrid. The same goes for CDG and MXP. When they were created they weren't that great but when the pound fell it became the promised land, for the commuter. Ask a euro pilot about his euromillions and most say it's bloody expensive over there especially if you are single as for families there are many tax breaks. Do I want to see contracts re-evaluated every time a currency falls or rises? No thanks. If you're paid in £ and spend in £ it makes no difference, likewise for the €. So are the euro contracts better off because of their tub thumping unions or is it historically because of the exchange rate when the contracts were created. It's a bit of both but mainly because of the latter.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0204; 21st Aug 2013 at 19:55.
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Supply and demand - yawn.
10 years ago easy were handing out 5 figure golden hellos because they couldn't get enough pilots. Now it's the other way around. Soon it might go back the other way! Who knows.
Don't expect too much moaning from current EZY staff. Those who "prostrated themselves before the company" a few years back as you put it Lord Spandex Masher, are now sitting in the LHS on a good contract and have amassed life changing quantities of EZY stock.
10 years ago easy were handing out 5 figure golden hellos because they couldn't get enough pilots. Now it's the other way around. Soon it might go back the other way! Who knows.
Don't expect too much moaning from current EZY staff. Those who "prostrated themselves before the company" a few years back as you put it Lord Spandex Masher, are now sitting in the LHS on a good contract and have amassed life changing quantities of EZY stock.
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That may well be but if the current trend continues then they will never struggle to get pilots. It will never go back the other way if people stay willing to do what they're doing now.
James Brown:
As already mentioned you have the £ vs € being the main reason for the difference in pay but do not forget:
That some countries pay their tax once or twice a year and not monthly like in the UK hence you have a high payout of which you have to save 20-25% to pay the tax office later in the year. You also forget that these guys abroad do not get pension contribution by the company like in the UK. So if we take the pension contribution into it and add that to the UK capt's monthly salary (about £550) it will be a different story I would Imagine!?
As already mentioned you have the £ vs € being the main reason for the difference in pay but do not forget:
That some countries pay their tax once or twice a year and not monthly like in the UK hence you have a high payout of which you have to save 20-25% to pay the tax office later in the year. You also forget that these guys abroad do not get pension contribution by the company like in the UK. So if we take the pension contribution into it and add that to the UK capt's monthly salary (about £550) it will be a different story I would Imagine!?
Last edited by The Flying Cokeman; 21st Aug 2013 at 20:34.