Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

easyJet Pilot Recruitment 2012

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

easyJet Pilot Recruitment 2012

Old 20th Oct 2011, 08:10
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 160
Indeed Wingswinger. That does seem to be the case. It is good for potential new joiners to be aware of this management mentality though. They are not thinking "let's get this lot in and give them a career". They want to flog you for a few years and dangle a carrot of better things to come (as do many airlines), whilst all the time expecting many guys to leave. Good for business I guess, but terrible for workforce morale and job satisfaction. However, the flogging period at easyJet is much harsher than just a reduced salary at other airlines. Super random roster, little time off, a poor leave system, no guaranteed income and no guarantee of a permanent job at the end of it.

But if you think easy will suit you then it is a price you have to pay.
Full Left Rudder is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 10:07
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 529
Let's be reasonable shall we? People have had perm jobs from 6 months - earning in excess of 5000 euros a month but they needed to take a contract abroad- apart from a few justified reasons not to go abroad the many, many cadets that have snubbed these contracts are naive, foolish and want their cake and eat it. On top of that, yes, alot have low hours for November but the same broken records complaining about it were trying to get rid of hours in the summer, didn't save there 3-4000 a month in the summer for a rainy day I.e loan repayments in the winter and signed up for finance on expensive cars. Easyjet do not owe you a UK contract, I don't ever remember UK being in any promises.

The labour party have really wired some people to believe they can achieve something from nothing more than anyone else and are entitled to whatever they dream of. You need to sacrifice and face up to your responsibilities. A very warm welcome to the real world.
BlackandBrown is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 11:18
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
Posts: 508
Angel

Easyjet do not owe you a UK contract, I don't ever remember UK being in any promises.
So a company that uses your labour skills, does not owe you a contract? Typical naive thinking, and then people still wonder why T&C's are dropping so fast...

Although the results of Project Merlin are not guaranteed, it seems very likely that we will have significant movement on that front next year
Funny how it's always next year..!
Spot on, unfortunately, people like AdM and his sidekick NSF need some kind of carrot to be permanently dangled in front of them, any sparkle of hope to cling on to. They missed the boat a few decades ago because back then they were already so naive to believe that the promise of a quick command would bring them a golden future instead of joining a seniority list working (on a real and permanent contract!) for a real career airline. So their naivety and 'normalcy bias' (Google that!) requires them to be permanently brainwashed and conditioned into thinking/hoping that rescue is on the way. Just look at all the empty promises of a better future that NSF has been rambling on about for the last 5 years and then you'll quickly see why his credibility is completely used up and why he has passed the baton to AdM with his "project Merlin."

Hope springs eternal! Keep on hoping & praying that "next year" things will be different and that "project Merlin" will improve your lives! Just don't hold your breath...

They want to flog you for a few years and dangle a carrot of better things to come (as do many airlines), whilst all the time expecting many guys to leave. Good for business I guess, but terrible for workforce morale and job satisfaction.
That's what I've been saying for years! Coincidentally and ironically, the bad workforce morale and job satisfaction is required because only so people will leave after a few years in order to make room for the next batch of MPL cadets willing to work for even less! Bad morale is part of the business plan!

p.s. doesn't anyone think it's strange that a company needs to set up some kind of "project BlaBla" in order to treat people in a human way? These kind of "projects" are just like "political committees" and "think tanks:" they're designed to talk in circles for years without solving anything, but to keep the dumb sheeple (i.e. you!) ignorant and hopeful for a better future! As I said: bad morale is part of the business plan, it cleanses the system of old and expensive pilots and replaces them with cheaper and cheaper cannon fodder!

p.p.s. I sometimes see this "originally posted by XYZ" in posts, how can you quote people?

Last edited by Doug the Head; 20th Oct 2011 at 17:58.
Doug the Head is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 13:53
  #224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 8
Black and Brown,

You're understanding of life as Flexicrew pilot probably needs some assistance before you make any more offensive assumptions. Here is what I have taken home recently after tax AND after my HSBC loan payment.

552;
1325;
1192;
1170;
1526;
1807;
765;
669;

Average, 1130.

Nothing like the 3000-4000 you casually quoted.

Also, my net salary in NOV is predicted to be -300 after loan repayments.

By the way, my car broke last December, so I bought a new one - a second hand motor which is 8 years old. It cost me 1000. I probably wouldn't be allowed to but a car on finance given my shocking levels of debt... but you probably considered that before making your remark didn't you?

Last edited by ARNOLDJ; 20th Oct 2011 at 23:22.
ARNOLDJ is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 13:56
  #225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
Posts: 508
aviator3200, don't confuse cheap & young pilot with unsafe pilot!

Training standards (thanks to A-scalers like NSF and AdM ) are excellent, but someone who joined at 22 can be a captain before he/she's 30 and a training captain/TRE at 35.

The real problem for management (!) starts to arise when this 35 y.o training captain starts thinking about a family, a pension, private healthcare, part time etc. That's when he/she becomes too expensive and this "number one asset" needs to be replaced by another (no doubt excellent) "number one asset" who joined a few years later on an even cheaper B, C, D, E, F-scale or Flexi-Crew contracts.

And so a perpetual game of musical chairs is being played in which they continually undermine and lower the T&C's in this industry, yet most participants are too hypnotized to realize because they are staring at the carrot that is dangled in front of them and desperately want to believe in the fairy tales of NSF and AdM.

I just read the shocking tale of ARNOLDJ! An absolute shame, but please Arnold, hang in there, because according to AdM "project Merlin" will change everything in a few years time.

"Change you can believe in...!

Last edited by Doug the Head; 20th Oct 2011 at 18:02.
Doug the Head is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 14:56
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: far
Age: 22
Posts: 24
Sorry mate i didn't want to offend anyone i just wanted to say that 4000 hrs of airline experience are better than only 2000 in some situations.Then it comes where you flew.A guy who flew anywhere has certainly more experience do you agree on that?Anyway
It is not your fault but until hundreds of pilots will be able to pay such amount of money and experienced guys will be ready to join EZY as they would have been still in their 20's easyjet will always act in such a way.Why all of you guys don't go somewhere around the gulf or asia.They are looking for hundreds of pilots.It's not home but you will be treated much better.You can have the opportunity to fly 380,787 350.At least you will get a compensation
fly safe
aviator3200 is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 17:53
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North West, UK
Age: 53
Posts: 711
ARNOLDJ's post says it all

ARNOLDJ, when you have a 1000 hours, apply here. In fact apply now and you never know.

Pilots & Flight Deck Crew | Qatar Airways Global
EGCC4284 is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 18:44
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: The IMF.
Posts: 537
Alexander de Meerkat - a contradiction in terms, surely?

AdM says: "The terms are poor for the first two or three years, and I do not wish to defend that. What I can say, however, is that after that period everyone is on a permanent contract earning good money in a company that is as about as secure as you get in the airline industry. If that is a rubbish deal to you then so be it - most people would think otherwise. Every airline in the world brings people in on a starter deal and you work your way up - we are no different. I am not defending the flexicrew system but it is a temporary situation for nearly all pilots."

How many times can you change your stance in a single paragraph?

It IS a rubbish deal and you well know it!! How can you possibly suggest that highly qualified (even if inexperienced in their chosen field) are expected to work without assurance for the "first two or three years".

Pathetic. But, as I said earlier, you're alright Jack.
Narrow Runway is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 19:34
  #229 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 47
Posts: 210
So, AdM - in Nov you have a bunch of stressed out relatively inexperienced FOs on Flexi contracts given c 2 days of flying each, and using ARNOLDJs example above expecting to be on -300 once tax/NI and loan repayments are taken off. Some of them will likely catch a nasty bout of cold/flu. What will they do? What do you think they will do? Be honest, put their hand up and say that they feel dreadful and cannot clear their ears? Or work anyway for fear of being -500 instead.

What about the guys who are kept up most of the night by a sick girlfriend, or noisy housemate's party because they cannot afford to live on their own? Do you think they will call in sick?

Frankly the flexi-crew scheme when operated in the numbers and proportions that easyJet use is a complete disgrace and exploitation. 59% of LGW FOs not on permanent contracts? Come on. The biggest issue is the lack of spine at the CAA to attack this issue, and all of the "I'm alright Jack" guys who will let it happen with barely a waver because their T&Cs are ok and it doesn't directly affect them.
I'm Off! is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 20:37
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 160
The truth is coming out. Can you now see why I know hardly anyone who wants to stay at easy, even with a permanent contract? The scars have been made and will never heal after such bad treatment by management.
Full Left Rudder is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 20:37
  #231 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 356
Originally Posted by ARNOLDJ
MAR 552;
APR 1325;
MAY 1192;
JUNE 1170;
JULY 1526;
AUG 1807;
SEPT 765;
OCT 669;

Average, 1130.
Yes but your loan is irrelevant because its personal, how much are your repayments so we can see how much flexicrew pays?
Mungo Man is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 20:40
  #232 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 160
The loan is far from irrelevant to the vast majority of flexicrew guys!

But I understand your circumstances may be different.
Full Left Rudder is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 21:08
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
FLR

Whilst their loan is far from irrelevant I think you know what Mungo Man is trying to ask, and that is how much does a flexi-crew pilot get paid in real terms? Afterall, nobody forced them to get the loan out, nobody forced them to take a flexi-crew contract. Management's fault? Or the very people who are/were willing to accept these shitty contracts in the first place? You decide.
Deano777 is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 21:31
  #234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 160
Indeed. It would be useful to know net figures excluding loans. From memory it ranged from 2300 - 3000 a month. Plus, for many, a few months with no income if between contracts etc. I spent 2 months queueing on Thursdays down at the job centre......

With regard to the flexicrew contracts - most of us had signed up to CTC with the promise of a six month initial contract followed by a permanent deal. This process had been going on for many years successfully already. By the time easyJet introduced flexicrew it was too late for us. We were already in debt and had little choice. easyJet abused their position and twisted the knife.

That is not to say we didn't fight it. Believe it or not, the original contracts offered were even worse than they are now. With no support from BALPA we formed our own 'mini union' and negotiated directly with CTC and easyJet management. We took a bold step and essentially refused to come to work after a certain date if things didn't improve. This was not an easy decision as we all needed work in order to get paid and keep the banks away, and we risked getting fired. easyJet gave in to many of our requests at that point. After all they couldn't afford for 200 FOs not to rock up at work.

To suggest we were weak or foolish to take these contracts is ignorant of the facts. We were trapped by easyJet moving the goalposts once we were already tied into it all. But we didn't take it lying down. Far far from it.
Full Left Rudder is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 21:41
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 8
When I took the loan out it was on the understanding of two contractural conditions. The first was that I would receive 1000 of my salary as a tax free bond repayment to cover the cost of the loan each month. This was supposed to go on for the first 7 years of employment.
The second clause was that a type rating was supposed to be included in the course costs that we paid up front.
In respect of the first point, the repayments aren't happening and there is no sign of them beginning to either. This is a loss of earnings in effect of about 300 per month.
The type rating also cost 8000 up from which I am trying to pay back to my creditor (this pay back wasn't taken into account in the figures I already gave you by the way... Ie More outgoings)
So as you can see the goal posts have moved considerably since I took out the loan. Would i take out the loan now? Im not sure i would. But After being unemployed for a year after obtaining a cpl it's pretty hard to turn down the only prospect of employment in an airline with a corporate beast the size of HSBC breathing down your neck.
Solution? Swallow pride, take job, avoid bankruptcy. Hope you survive.
I don't normally post on here but sometimes I get the slightest whiff that some people think flexicrew pilots are either arrogant, naive or whinging babies and I would hope to be none of those. I wanted to explain to blackandbrown that it isn't as rosie as he thinks, that's all. I hope this clears a few things up.
ARNOLDJ is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 22:04
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 0
You know a there was a time when people did an apprenticeship of flying instruction, air work, night freight, small TP airline, Regional and then got into a household name jet airline. When I did that I didn't get to live where I wanted. I didn't get paid more than 1,000 a month and November 1998 was memorable for being 110 for the month. You built no valuable hours and you made tea and swept the hangar sometimes.


It was tough.

Flexicadet-ship don't look tougher. Everyone applied. Everyone filled out the loan paperwork. Everyone was over the age of 18. Everyone got the deal as advertised (post 2009).

For the past 4 years there has only been EZY RYR and Flybe offering airline jobs in the UK. Spit on that if you want but BA didn't want to know your name until recently. The market for low hour pilots has been dictated by low houred pilots ability and willingness to pay further and further steps down the training path in an effort to get ahead of their peers.

The wannabe zombie army marched eagerly to the current conditions of employment.


Put in some hard yards.


WWW
Wee Weasley Welshman is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 22:16
  #237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 8
Exactly, hard yards. That's my point. We're not driving round in brand new A4's and going on skiing holidays. It is hard and I only feel the need to tell people it's hard when they tell me it's easy.
ARNOLDJ is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 22:37
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BFS
Posts: 1,179
WWW-Well Put.

Welcome to the real world guys. If I had taken that home after repaying my loans as a turboprop FO I'd have been over the moon. As would many of my friends who came up through the ranks so to speak. Try being an FI in the middle of winter then come back and see if you think you're hard done to. No one made you take the loans, no one made you join Easy. It was your choice alone.
What about the guys who are kept up most of the night by a sick girlfriend, or noisy housemate's party because they cannot afford to live on their own? Do you think they will call in sick?
One would hope the individual would have the professionalism not to fly if unfit. Anything else is unacceptable.

Like it or not there will always be zero sympathy from those who have gone through the ringer to end up in the rhs of a shiny jet towards those who thought it was as easy as borrowing a huge wedge of cash and turning up, thus messing with what had previously been a natural order, and keeping experienced people out of a job they have worked exceptionally hard to get. Then go bleating if the goalposts move. Look at any regional at the moment, Flybe is a good example, and you'll see scores of Captains and FO's, a lot of whom have got where they are through the more traditional route of instructing/air taxi etc. Most of whom hoped to then land a job on an airbus/boeing. They could argue that their goalposts were moved by the CTC mug.
silverknapper is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 23:15
  #239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
Posts: 508
Grrr

You know a there was a time when people did an apprenticeship of flying instruction, air work, night freight, small TP airline, Regional and then got into a household name jet airline. When I did that I didn't get to live where I wanted. I didn't get paid more than 1,000 a month and November 1998 was memorable for being 110 for the month. You built no valuable hours and you made tea and swept the hangar sometimes.


It was tough.

Flexicadet-ship don't look tougher. Everyone applied. Everyone filled out the loan paperwork. Everyone was over the age of 18. Everyone got the deal as advertised (post 2009).

For the past 4 years there has only been EZY RYR and Flybe offering airline jobs in the UK. Spit on that if you want but BA didn't want to know your name until recently. The market for low hour pilots has been dictated by low houred pilots ability and willingness to pay further and further steps down the training path in an effort to get ahead of their peers.

The wannabe zombie army marched eagerly to the current conditions of employment.


Put in some hard yards.



WWW
How convenient to leave out that many of these naive young kids (with no experience in the aviation industry!) only did so after being encouraged by A-scalers like yourself, NSF and AdM! I've previously compared NSF to the Piper of Hamelin, and I still think that that description is very fitting!

Like the hypnotized children in the Piper of Hamelin, these naive young kids ("wannabe zombie army" as you call them! ) were led into the financial abyss by some smooth salving words of 'paying a few bucks here, sign on the dotted line there, and don't worry because you'll be joining a real career airline!'

Now these spoiled A-scalers (sitting in their cushy ivory training department towers) make a complete 180 and twist the knife a bit deeper into the desperate victim by effectively saying: 'hey, it's your own fault that you were stupid enough to sign a bad deal in order to join this "real career" airline."'

WWW has just again (after together with NSF inviting middle management to the private forum...) reminded the world of how spineless, selfish and naive some orange "senior" pilots are, but as correctly pointed out by studi: it will come back to haunt you!

For some, CRM is obviously some obscure three letter abbreviation that only applies between park brake "off" and park brake "set." What happens after that is also known as social Darwinism: every man, woman, child for himself!

A word of advice to all people interested in joining a career airline: take all the sales talks (i.e. management propaganda!) of spineless A-scalers like WWW, NSF and AdM with a large pinch of salt!

Doug the Head is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2011, 23:16
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: xxx
Posts: 8
The point is the loan is a massive commitment that 100s of cadets undertook on certain understandings 3 - 4 years ago. Its almost twice my mortgage. Terms were changed when we were already committed and at our most vulnerable. Most of us wouldn't have started on this path if things were as risky as they are now. I don't know why that is so hard to fathom.

The loan, the job and the training organisation were all devised together. They are/were intrinsically linked. Now that historical link has been forgotten and the financial protections against bankruptcy are no longer there. it's no use saying you signed the loan so deal with it. In some respects you are right, but Would you say the same to someone with a mortgage if the bank started asking for more money than is on the agreement?
ARNOLDJ is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.