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Any recruitment likely at Easy?

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Any recruitment likely at Easy?

Old 15th Oct 2010, 22:02
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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I really am not sure why this conversation is continuing. If stansdead, or others like him, were to appear on some thread about BA or Virgin demanding to be let in as a DEC, he would be laughed out of court for all the same reasons he will not be considered at easyJet. He may or may not be a capable pilot and, despite his best efforts to hide it, he may even be a decent bloke - it simply does not matter and is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Notwithstanding his particularly unpleasant demeanour as presented on here, the fact remains that like BA, Virgin, Lufthansa, Cathay, KLM, BMI, Air France, American, United, Southwest, etc, etc we are going to promote our own. Why? Because we can and because we should - simple as that. In the past, both BA and Virgin took DECs when they had to. As soon as they could fill their command slots from within it all ended and that situation is unlikely ever to return. That is the case here - there really is nothing further to discuss. There are literally dozens of our own FOs reading stansdead's astounding words on here with uttter disbelief - who on earth is this guy demanding to be let into easyJet when we have hundreds of our own highly-qualified FOs? Why not start a thread about BA, Virgin or Cathay letting you in there as a DEC and see how much of a welcome you get there? You are never, ever, ever going to be offered a job at any of the airlines mentioned above, including easyJet, as a DEC - just get over it, move on and stop making an exhibition of yourself.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 22:07
  #182 (permalink)  
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Please. Take NSF's advice and just stop this now.


The logical comparison laid out is irrefutable.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 22:26
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.
And neither did anybody else before they joined easyjet. Including you. That is why there are such things as:

- Ground School - Here you will learn all that you need to know to operate our aeroplanes to our standard.
- Line Training - Here you will put into practice the theory which you spent the last few months learning. A Training Captain will then sign you off as capable.

You will, therefore, meet the required standard and become a known quantity.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with direct entry commands. Full stop. End of.

I can tell just because our exceptionally good SFO community in the Command holding pool wouldn't have posted comments on PPRuNe which made them sound like a complete tool.
What a ridiculous statement.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 23:10
  #184 (permalink)  
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You learn in the RHS - not in Groundschool.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with direct entry commands. Full stop. End of.
Shove that. DEC's are a massive risk. Most, of course are brilliant and add go your experience pool instantly. But, like a box of chocolates..

In a decade of working in this company I know of only 3 Captains who "left". All DEC's.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 23:29
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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You can be as confrontational as you like but you know as well as I do that as soon as easy need DECs they'll bloody well have them. There aint a thing you can do about it either.

The only reason that you don't need them at the moment is because of the current recruitment market, or lack thereof.

Are you going to tell them to shove it?

To address NSF's point
If stansdead, or others like him, were to appear on some thread about BA or Virgin demanding to be let in as a DEC, he would be laughed out of court for all the same reasons he will not be considered at easyJet
The same reasons? No, not at all. The reason airlines such as the ones you mentioned very rarely take DECs is because they are long haul operators.

Nobody in their right mind would want to jump from the left seat of a short haul domestic and European operation to the left seat of ULH, polar, transatlantic, ETOPS, extended overwater ops. And nobody in their right mind would recruit such people. Two completely different types of operation no?
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 23:59
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WWW
I can tell just because our exceptionally good SFO community in the Command holding pool wouldn't have posted comments on PPRuNe which made them sound like a complete tool.
Originally Posted by Lord Spandex Masher
What a ridiculous statement.
Why was it ridiculous? On the basis of what's been written in this increasingly entertaining thread so far, I'd say WWW's musings there are pretty spot-on.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 00:06
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not saying WWW's judgement of stansdead is right or wrong.

It is however, ridiculous to suggest that his...
exceptionally good SFO community
...wouldn't do anything that would have...
made them sound like a complete tool
When:

a) He doesn't know all of the SFO's in the pool.
b) What you and I are like in real life may or may not be what we portray on the internet.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 00:33
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Usually you make more sense WWW. You usually put an end to squabbles! Whats got on your goat? Loaded question! Don't expect an answer! Keep going guys! Pointless and entertaining!!
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 01:36
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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been following this with interest.

WWW, NSF,

your are defending the principle of not taking DEC based on the availability of qualified SFO in your company. That is a perfect and unquestionable good reason.

But at the end of the day, all this is market forces driven. Should eJ need DEC some day for any reasonably acceptable reason -like when they took you NSF- then they will just recruit the numbers they need regardless of what you may think.

I don't think there is a need to get that personal towards Stansdead. Saying that he'll "never ever" get a shot as a DEC with eJ sounds more like your personal wish than what reality may possibly offer in the future based on an objective market context.

While I always read your numerous analysis with great interest and quite often agree with you guys, I think that on this occasion you have crossed the line of objectivity...

And regarding the list of technical reasons put forward to demonstrate the unqualified nature of DEC's, do you suggest that no airbus skipper outside eJ is able to acquaint him/her self with them in the right mindset and actually become a positive asset for the company? If I did not respect you guys from your history on this forum, I would have said that it's a bit arrogant...

safe flights all
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 03:39
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Gi Dem Dub, I believe it is based on the assumption that the rate of commands will be slower than the rate of SFOs becoming ready for command. The growth is not as high as it used to be. There have been some real porkers amongst the DECs of the past, but luckily a minority.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 05:51
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Reallyannoyed,

I think it is based on the assumption that they got personal in this thread a few posts back. Along with you.

None of you are prepared to admit that you have no power over who is or isn't offered DEC's now or at any time in the future -admittedly, if it ever happens.

I may have got on your goats about the possibility of it, so that leads me to believe there is obviously a serious fear of it happening in the near future.

I have been singled out as "making an exhibition of myself" by self appointed experts on everything and that their argument is irrefutable against me, whilst they have been allowed to sling dirt in my direction without recourse - ah yes, the all knowing court of some easyJet anonymous posters on PPRuNe. I should know better. You can never win, even if you play by their rules.

Why?

Because most people reading or contributing to this thread are from easyJet.

Therefore, they like the big strong NSF &WWW throwing their unjustified weight about and saying how good their outfit is, how great the training is and how bad everybody else is - because of one "Banzai" approach. You still didn't tell me what one is WWW....

However, others who aren't in easyJet think that your comments towards other individuals are wrong. You see, it's a matter of perception. And standpoint.

Anyone who knows me would say I'm a professional, with high standards who runs a very tight ship. That's the problem you see, none of you know me. You probably don't want to know me - no bother, I've got enough friends anyway and so have you I'm sure. But to suggest people aren't professionals because of an argument on an anonymous forum??? A bit basic....
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 06:27
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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There are too many assumptions and arguments in this thread.

The FACTS are:

- it is extremely unlikely that easyJet will ever expand at the same rate it used to, as such there will be no shortage of suitably qualified FO to be promoted internally.

- if, under exceptional circumstances, the company will not have enough FO ready to be promoted internally (this is aviation, after all) they are certainly going to ask PARC or CTC to provide contract captains, instead of hiring DEC, to fill the gap until those FO will be ready.

This way they can guarantee those seats will be available again when internal FO are eventually ready (and avoid industrial action), but most importantly they can get the flexibility from contract captains (in terms of roster) that easyJet dreams of, which is impossible to get hiring DEC on easyJet contract.

Ricky

Last edited by ricky-godf; 16th Oct 2010 at 06:46.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 06:39
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Stansdead, the whole point is that DEC will not happen in easyJet, despite what you may hope for. I am not in recruitment and thus having nothing to do with to whom the jobs are offered - but the jobs won't be offered! No amount of boasting alleged credentials and cries of unfairness and business sense will change that. So yes, I retain my stand: You bet on the wrong horse if indeed Orange Land is where you wish to fly.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 07:46
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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I did not cry unfairness about lack of DEC jobs. The fact remains that IF such jobs were ever to be offered, I am qualified, or at least was on previous criteria. That is not a boast.

Anyway, back to reality.

Safe flying.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 09:19
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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I did not cry unfairness about lack of DEC jobs. The fact remains that IF such jobs were ever to be offered, I am qualified, or at least was on previous criteria. That is not a boast.
Well, perhaps one day if DEC positions are available you'd meet the requirements to apply, whether you'd be qualified is another thing...

But do keep on hoping stansdead, because EZY (purposely?) c*cking up the pilot demographics might very well result in management soon crying crocodile tears claiming: 'we'd loooove to promote our own, but sorry, we now haaaave to hire DEC's' because our poor junior cadets living on bread and water, sleeping in car parks for the last 2 years do not yet meet the requirements.'

Oh yes, for all those people who think that NSF's fairy tales will shield you from DEC's: think again! It ain't gonna happen! The red thread running through that orange company is: divide/conquer, lather, rinse, repeat... Every 5-7 years the company can pull the same fast ones again and again because the new generation of pilots is again willing to believe the bullsh!t and the previous generation has moved on or has surrendered.

The big picture: dangling one more carrot in front of those poor (but cheap!) cadets to prevent them from leaving too soon before their useful shelf life (a few years in the RHS and then LHS) has expired! Imagine: 'free' cadets paying their own type rating living on bread & water and then being able to squeeze even more productivity out of them in the LHS before they off to Emirates! A wet dream for any bonus oriented manager/accountant/training captain!
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 12:09
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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I thought it was appropriate to make the following remark in the context of this debate:

As professionals with some experience in this industry, we should all know that our say as simple pilots regarding our respective companies recruitment policies is most of the time non-existent or very limited.

Then the certitudes expressed by the eJ pilots on here regarding DEC's may well be the result of a logical analysis of a given situation. But that certitude also happens to suit them and it "only" remains their own personal opinion. Unless they actually are members of eJ management in which case it's another story...

Otherwise nobody knows for sure what tomorrow is made of and this applies to any simple pilot of any company. Therefore having such heated debates on the subject and making personal attacks towards each other is a bit .... over the top....

me thinks
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 14:12
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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How would they ever fight the recruitment policies, when they fail so miserably in another aspect which is far more important union-strategic wise?
Exactly Studi!

Despite all the beautiful (and completely irrelevant ) comparisons with BA, Virgin or Cathay from NSF, the EZY workforce was powerless when TRSS came along, they are powerless when cadets are exploited on sub-human contracts and they also will be powerless if/when DEC's are hired...again!
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 15:03
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Although Doug the Head and I do not always agree, on this occasion I agree that the pilot community has proven weak in the past when it should have been stronger. The disgraceful First Officer divide-and-conquer contracts are indefensible, and I have never attempted to do so. As I have said previously, there are some great aspects of working for easyJet and some less than ideal ones. I also back Studi's views about the principle of easyJet pilots for easyJet cockpits. We could and should have been stronger on this. The bottom line is that if we do not back BALPA we will never achieve that.

I stand by my view that no airline of any calibre will take DECs when there are guys to promote. As I have openly stated, I was once a DEC at a time when there was a shortage of suitable and experienced SFOs to promote. As others are so clearly saying, that situation is unlikely to return for the foreseaable future and therefore the comparisons with BA, Virgin and Cathay are entirely appropriate. I do accept that there are individuals lurking within the management structure who have failed to grasp how not to stuff their boys. Like every other airline that is expanding, we would look at DECs when we cannot fill the cockpits - that is a situation that I cannot envisage any time soon. As long as there are promotable SFOs we must, without exception, promote them before taking on DECs. For all those interested in stats, after 2012 we have no more aircraft on order - if that stays the same then any talk of DECs is simply wasted breath and heartbeats.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 15:55
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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the comparisons with BA, Virgin and Cathay are entirely appropriate
I'm afraid not Norm. They couldn't be more inappropriate.

You will, more than likely, find that when Virgin recruited DEC's they were already experienced long haul operators. The reason why there are so many experienced SFO's in long haul ops is because of the long time to command. This allows said SFO's to gain a lot of experience in the type of operation that is not as repetitive as short haul. The type of operation that we short haul types have no experience in.

Now, there are millions of experienced short haul operators in Europe and the UK, in both seats, who are more than capable of operating as a captain, immediately. Doesn't matter who for either.

The same millions of experienced pilots are very incapable of operating as a long haul captain, immediately, because they have no experience of long haul whatsoever.

That is the difference between easy and Virgin/Cathay/BA and to compare one shorthaul company (regardless of identity) to other long haul companies is most odd.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 16:39
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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Sort of a side question from the current debate about Eazy. Do you guys continue to hire into the 737NG fleet and how much longer do you think Eazy will keep them vs. the Airbus? Are most 737NG pilots migrating over to the Airbus?

Cheers
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