Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Any recruitment likely at Easy?

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Any recruitment likely at Easy?

Old 16th Oct 2010, 17:34
  #201 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Lord Spandex Masher - Have I not told you billions of times not to exaggerate?! Not having counted them I cannot be certain, but I am reasonably confident that there are not 'millions of experienced short haul operators in Europe and the UK'. That aside, you are totally missing the point of the analogy in due to some unnecessary offence taken over the pecking order of long haul above short haul in your own mind. It clearly goes without saying that anyone applying for a DEC has the experience necessary to fulfil the role. It is self-evident that long-haul experience would be a reasonable pre-requisite for the job at Virgin or Cathay. That means that if in the past Virgin wanted DECs on B747s they would look to BA or the like for the appropriate experience. The key point is that they took people from outside because they had insufficient experience in their own ranks to do the job. Once they had the necessary experience the rules quite rightly changed to favour promotion from within. Would a highly-experienced BA B747-400 Training Captain be a better bet to employ as a Captain at Virgin than a newly promoted, untried-in-role, First Officer from within. Quite possibly - but that is completely irrelevant. The key thing is that as long as a First Officer from within has the necessary experience then you must always promote them first before you look outside - that principle is made to apply at Virgin, Cathay, BA etc and must be made to apply at easyJet. All the pilots at easyJet are saying is that they want the same deal applied to them that applies to other quality airlines. I fail to see the difficulty that some of the people taking part in this debate have with that.

We have significant complexities in our operation compared to the other companies mentioned. Most notably, we have multiple nationalities and numerous European bases with many different contracts plus local tax, pension and social security arrangements to contend with. This makes the corporate representation of all pilots very difficult for both the company and those who represent us. Nonetheless, we can and must be sure that despite these difficulties we stay as one in establishing the basic principles of how our company should run.

Regarding Iver's question about the 737, I will leave it to others with more knowledge to give us the true information on that one.
Norman Stanley Fletcher is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2010, 19:11
  #202 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 51
Posts: 2,587
Originally Posted by wee willie
I can tell just because our exceptionally good SFO community in the Command holding pool wouldn't have posted comments on PPRuNe which made them sound like a complete tool.

I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.

ALL of our SFO's are already masters of all this and much much more and have 4 and a bit years of FDM data and Sim checks to back up the fact that they are the Real Deal.

You. Are an unknown Arse.

A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk.

And.

NEVER EVER EVER going to be an easyJet Captain.


Shall we move on? No pressure - this is fun.


WWW
You're a mod?

What an arse
White Knight is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2010, 20:41
  #203 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: lumberton
Posts: 12
Sorry but to compare easy to ba and the like is just ludicrous in the extreme. The sickening flexi crew contracts would have never been tolerated, not even as a concept, let alone while secure captains accepted huge bonuses whilst these poor sods barely survived. Shame on you that took the money. You had a chance to bargain with strength and you pissed it away. The management must love you guys, and the fo's , you're fellow workers, must want to spit in your coffee. And the up shot is, a line training captain and www, a so called wannabe Oracle and mod pansying about with hand bags over decs. Is it any wonder this industry is getting ever more ......
frank booth is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2010, 22:09
  #204 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 515
That seems a fair response Frank.
stansdead is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2010, 22:59
  #205 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dubai
Posts: 53
This thread is becoming increasingly embarrassing. Are we really expected to believe that NSF and the meerkat are two different people? I agree that it is truly laughable to compare easyJet with a properly represented BALPA airline - how can we honestly believe that there won't be any DEC positions next summer when a pilots' union in easyJet is really just an oxymoron. Nobody in the CC shows any visible leadership whatsoever and the decreasing percentage of members are happy to accept whatever they are told for the most part. If DECs were to appear on the bus fleet next summer (for the people that don't realise that CTC have already provided them this summer) then I find it very hard to believe that the CC won't once again tow the company line and tell us all that it is a necessary evil and that we wouldn't want to cost the company any money would we?!
gyni is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2010, 23:29
  #206 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 18,911
Wink

White Knight said (5 1/2 years ago)

BLE- I didn't say all DEC's are useless, I said a FEW DUDS!!! Most of the guys I've flown with (DEC's that is) are switched on and very likeable. And no, they haven't actually gone through the same hiring process!!!!
Doesn't change the fact that they're totally surplus to requirements does it?
http://www.pprune.org/1911172-post47.html

Did you just wander in here out of curiosity of is the soul destroying nature of Dubai making you explore the internet more?


Sorry that some of you don't like easyJets recruitment policy or easyJets employment contracts or easyJets BALPA Company Council decisions. But hey. Its got nothing to do with you.


WWW
Wee Weasley Welshman is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 00:01
  #207 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
Posts: 508
Although Doug the Head and I do not always agree, on this occasion I agree that the pilot community has proven weak in the past when it should have been stronger.
Well Norm, that's because, in the past (and present!) people like you have been living in an orange bubble and brushing everything that stinks under the carpet by shooting the messengers with your pathetic "why don't you just leave" rhetoric!

People like you made this possible by making sure people take their eyes of the important fundamental issues at stake with your orange bullsh!t propaganda!

My 2 cents of advice to the cadets reading this thread: get the type (hell, you paid for it anyway!), get the hours and get out! BA, Virgin, Cathay (basically all the companies NSF compares EZY to, LOL! ) are hiring or will be hiring soon.
Ask yourself: would Virgin have worked you to max duty in return for peanuts after you had paid for your type rating yourself? Did BA hire any DEC's in the last 2-3 decades? Do you have to beg for a few crew sandwiches with Cathay or do they exploit cadets under various schemes?

p.s. Don't worry about leaving either orange LH or RH seat empty, Norman will be more than happy to do both jobs because as a training captain he's most probably dual seat qualified!

Last edited by Doug the Head; 17th Oct 2010 at 09:35.
Doug the Head is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 00:32
  #208 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: U K
Posts: 89
Well said Doug The Head,

My advice to easyJet cadets is the same. Remember a lot of posters here have only worked for easyJet (or worse employers). Take your hard earned licence to an airline that treats you with respect. 40 years with a UK low cost carrier really is a life sentence.

Don't believe this is as good as it gets, as WWW and 'he who cannot be mentioned' will have you believe. They simply don't know any better.

You will have a better quality of life, a more interesting career and more opportunity elsewhere. Get your hours do your sums and get out you owe easy absoloutely no loyalty whatsoever.

Dont pay to much attention to WWW and others, they have their own agendas. easyJet will always do what they want in the interests of the bottom line, it will never be a great employer, fullstop, period, and no union will ever change that.
Major Cleve Saville is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 00:40
  #209 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: ground
Posts: 59
Easyjet really is pathetic these days, following ryanair down the hole.
It has become somewhere to get started out of flight school and in my opinion not a career airline anymore,
I left some time ago and have been asked back under contract but I wont unless I really have to.Even if I do have to it will only be for a short period until I get the next job lined up. Easyjet are facilitating this as they think first officers have no other options, theyre wrong.
Contract captains or not they treat their first officers who are their captains of the future like shit.
Any cadets or wannabes following this, Pay your money get the experience then move on, I mean who wants 40 years of this grief?
SMOOTHFLIER is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 08:44
  #210 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 358
Alexander de Merkat,

Thank you very much for posting the Boeing fleet update - it was very helpful.
Shaman is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 10:47
  #211 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Empty quarter
Age: 40
Posts: 15
I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.

ALL of our SFO's are already masters of all this and much much more and have 4 and a bit years of FDM data and Sim checks to back up the fact that they are the Real Deal.

You. Are an unknown Arse.

A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk.
Wee Welshman Moderate this......you are the arse on here
All you know about this industry you have seen through PPRuNe or Easyjet, both institutions where you have ingratiated yourself.

If the above company specific version of generic knowledge (and more) is all that seperates you from a DEC then you havent achieved much in your 10 year transformation from keen wannabe at the 1999 job seekers conference to pompous patronising Captain at easyjet. A contract captain would probably less interested in the above ,and not bother to learn your local version, but you're probably a trainer or a manager by now and so sanction that particular model of DEC so as to further ingratiate yourself into the Ej culture. You've known one OM-A, way to go champ.

The above is not a yardstick for jeopardy nor a seperate qualification that only time served F/Os can achieve.It is learnable in an afternoon and many guys have done so at many companies without a 10yr apprenticeship. Many people looking for a DEC position will have been made redundant and will have forgotten more than you have learnt during your industry wide 11 years on an orangejet.Some of the items they will have forgotten are the things you've mentioned. Ten pounds says theyll re aqquaint themslves with the EJ version in an hour or two. Then what value your 11 years. especially when EJ tire of you and you end up meeting another companys version of yourself on the job hunt.You may well meet on the way down people you pissed off on the way up.

Im in the desert with Mr Knight , having a ball on the left seat of a 777 in the "soul destroying" Dubai , Job number 4 for me and despite the moaning on here , infintely better than the lo cost life. Now before you ask me I'm here because I was the same generation as you at EJ but from a previous employer not flight school, hence my interest in your opinions.
As for being a moderator, well that was for the wannabes section wasnt it? Ah the heady days of kow towing with the then PPRuNe owners .A life skill that has served you well at EJ.

Congratulations on your transformation and I hope the added knowledge you aquired, that sets you above mere DECs, was worth it.
Jihad Jim is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 11:08
  #212 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Norm,

there are not 'millions of experienced short haul operators in Europe and the UK'
Ok, I was exaggerating for effect. There are however, (in the style of Monty Python) a lot!

That aside, you are totally missing the point of the analogy in due to some unnecessary offence taken over the pecking order of long haul above short haul in your own mind
Cheap shot that one. It's not a pecking order it's a simple fact. You need adequate flying experience to become a long haul F/O. You need adequate long haul experience to become a long haul captain. I don't take offence at all, I have got adequate experience. I still have plenty of time on my hands, have you?

The key thing is that as long as a First Officer from within has the necessary experience then you must always promote them first before you look outside - that principle is made to apply at Virgin, Cathay, BA etc and must be made to apply at easyJet
Ok, I agree with what you're saying here. But, you can also then compare the likes of Aurigny and Loganair to BA and Virgin. They have plenty of experienced F/O's ready for command aswell.

The point I'm trying to make is that, sometimes, DEC's are a necessary part of the recruitment process, you are proof of this. Easy wont always have enough suitable SFO's ready for command so they will need to recruit DEC's. It may be the case that it isn't likely at the moment but sooner or later it'll happen again...and again and again.

If you and WWW could wind up your crystal balls and let me know what the lottery numbers are going to be next week I'd appreciate it.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 11:47
  #213 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 358
Back to the NG for a Minute

<<..... Captains remaining on the [NG] fleet to 8 in total. ........a number of Boeing contract Captains on short term contract....... We plan to contract up to a total of 12 Captains and all will be contracted to the end of Summer 2011>>

What? 20 captains to crew 2 a/c?
Shaman is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 12:20
  #214 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 18,911
Shaman, yes. That's what you need. Its complicated.


Spandex - I don't need a crystal ball to tell me that in 2011 easyJet won't need to hire/promote 350 pilots like they did in 2006. There's less than 14 new aircraft coming next year minus fleet disposals. The brief 14 month window when DEC's were a feature of easyJets rapid expansion is over. At that time (four years ago) every single FO with 3,000 factored hours was either promoted or didn't make it/didn't go for it. So DEC's were needed. DEC's came in and contributed greatly to the company brining a wealth of experience and knowledge to the company (thanks BMI).

Now easyJet employs a thousand first officers. They rack up 70 - 90 hours a month. That's a pretty deep well and it ain't gonna run dry unless something really unexpected happens. 2006 isn't on the cards. If easyJet announces a new order for 48 aircraft all to be delivered in 2011 then sure - DEC's will happen again. Keep an ear out for that announcement.


WWW
Wee Weasley Welshman is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 15:29
  #215 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: U K
Posts: 89
Well said Jihad Jim,

WWW your statements:

'I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.

ALL of our SFO's are already masters of all this and much much more and have 4 and a bit years of FDM data and Sim checks to back up the fact that they are the Real Deal.

You. Are an unknown Arse.

A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk.'
- Illustrate your lack of knowledge of EU-OPS either that or you are telling us easyJet is non-compliant with EU-OPS in terms of CAT II/III operations.

Stable approach criteria most of us could learn in 5 minutes.

FFRS is presumably standard for 319/320/321 or are you saying easyJet do not comply with ICAO standards?

Downgraded qirfield equipment again is there not a standard EU-OPS table in the manual? Do easyJet pilots have to memorise it? Are easyJet not compliant with EU-OPS?

Rostering and FTL is that not in the manual or have you memorised it. I guess with easyJets rostering you are likely to get very familiar with the FTL scheme very quickly.

Do easyJet pilots operate to the limits of the FDM parameters? I hope not, the FDM parameters are set to show deviations outside normal SOP parameters. Operating to FDM limits sounds very un-professional to me and not to be encouraged (most airlines will not publish parameters for this reason). Far better to operate to SOPS and never come close to FDM parameters.

You make it sound like DECs receive no training at all when they join easyJet.

Sounds like working with a company like this that appears, from what you imply, to be non-compliant with EU-OPS and basic ICAO regulations, and crews obviously lacking in basic awareness of international regulation is indeed 'a titanic risk'.

I only have 30 years of Sim checks and 21 years of FDM data to back me up as well as being a TRI/TRE, TRI Instructor & TRI Examiner, RETRE, CAA Flight test approval etc etc. But I guess I am not 'the real deal' compared to an easyJet first officer with 4 years experience.

Furthermore I have to ask who moderates the moderators? PPRuNe is good for healthy debate and some tongue in cheek wind-ups but hurling abuse seems to be abusing the position of moderator.

Major Cleve Saville.
Major Cleve Saville is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 15:53
  #216 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: HAM
Posts: 9
what nowadays calls themselfs TRE/TRI Line Cpt or whatsoever is anyway i big joke!!!
........ the most suitable candidate often dont have these postions anymore sad but true....
skyrider2001 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 15:56
  #217 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
I don't need a crystal ball to tell me that in 2011 easyJet won't need to hire/promote 350 pilots like they did in 2006
That's a pretty deep well and it ain't gonna run dry unless something really unexpected happens
First, are you implying that you know what is going to happen...even if it's not going to happen...until it does? How cool is that!?

Second, you can't really quantify unexpected. It either is or it isn't!
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 16:27
  #218 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SV Marie Celeste
Posts: 552
Alex the Meercat:

you must really love PPRuNe to put an internal memo talking about company strategy in an open forum such as this. Besides the fact that it will be sackable offense I would suggest that it is quite daft to give (any part of) the game away to our competitors for the sake of making an obscure point to strangers on the net. There is always the delete button......

And now look what the cat brought in!

Last edited by calypso; 17th Oct 2010 at 16:55.
calypso is online now  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 16:33
  #219 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Another thing WWW,

DEC's came in and contributed greatly to the company brining a wealth of experience and knowledge to the company
A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk
You're sounding more and more confused and desperate old son.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2010, 22:58
  #220 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Leo Hairy Camel - we are indeed honoured, nay humbled, by your participation in this gutter-level discussion on such mundane issues as easyJet seniority and future recruitment plans. I trust the Pikey Emporium is treating you well and that your Lord and Master, King Michael the Belligerent of Dublin holds you close to his bosom. As so often in the past, you made me roar with laughter and your contribution is indeed much appreciated by me at least!

Major - I really do not know what you are doing here, looking for an argument on just about any issue. Deeply impressed as we all are by your George Cross in the Cod War, DFC and Bar in the Third CAA Pilgrimage to Constantinople etc, not to mention the 65 years' loyal service to the Blind Horse Flying Association of Calcutta, it really is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Once we got onto the compliance with EU-OPS, I nearly had to take smelling salts to regain consciousness. I understand you do not like easyJet - that is absolutely fine, but even you must see it cannot be all bad here given the number of people champing at the bit to get in. For what it is worth, WWW is my mate and I actually think he speaks a lot of sense. I understand his style may not be to everyone's taste, but he is knowledgeable on a vast range of issues, both in and out of the industry. Give him a chance and he may even be able to participate in a sensible discussion on all the largely irrelevant issues you want to bring up.

Calypso - I note that Alexander de Meerkat (whose name you cannot even spell) seems to have been scared off and removed his quite informative post. I would hardly have called it state secrets, and his departure from the scene of battle is regrettable due to his apparent inside knowledge of what the real deal is on contracts etc. Nonetheless, I would like to encourage him to return in the future.

Doug the Head. Inspiring as your words are to the less informed, I am struggling to recall a single positive suggestion from you of any kind that would have prevented any of the abuses you so resent happening at easyJet. Your stated position is one of hating the ground easyJet was built on and that fundamentally we are all doomed. Anyone who stays here is a loser and anyone who sees any good in easyJet is just a management stooge. Real men should just slit their wrists in the cockpit to punish easyJet for existing. Try as I might, I have yet to see one single sensible suggestion from you as to a credible course of action in your dealings with the company. Should we just bankrupt easyJet to show 'them' just how bad things are? Yes - let's do that as that would show them. I am looking for concrete, credible suggestions. I will strike like anyone else for the right reason - and there have been a number of them. What I will not do is bring down the company just because we can - that is utter insanity.

737Jock - very interesting discussion about the French etc. I think there may be some merit in your argument. I certainly will be in discussion with our BALPA reps about a more united front.

This thread has run its course for me. There are some serious knuckleheads here who seem unable to grasp the essence of the discussion. The bottom line is that we will fight tooth and nail to prevent DECs as long as we have promotable FOs - a concept that exists in every other respectable airline of note. Whether we need them or not will be seen in the next year or so - my firm belief is we will not and should not give into the alleged need to do so if it is presented to us. Thanks for the chat guys - but I must return back to my lair to attend to more pressing matters.
Norman Stanley Fletcher is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.