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Any recruitment likely at Easy?

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Any recruitment likely at Easy?

Old 11th Oct 2010, 16:45
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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I had a chat with a management pal at BA recently. It seems the first tranche of recruitment ( don't you just love management speak) is for 80 or so pilots. The idea of taking them all from eJ in one big block was suggested and not not exactly laughed out of court.

Now that would shake things up a bit.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 17:12
  #102 (permalink)  
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I doubt another 80 would change much, if the rumoured 200-250 SFO's already leaving isn't enough to make Easy recruit some experience another 80 won't change that!

Infact you can hear management now, that's another 80 SFO salaries we can half by recruiting some more CTC Cadets to replace them, even more profit for the cash strapped Easy with profits in excess of 150m !!!

Very sad but true i fear.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 18:26
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Dr Eckener - you are absolutely wrong in both your understanding of seniority and the likely benefits of abandoning it. When you talk of free movement of labour, that assumes a constant size labour market that never changes from year to year. The reality of aviation is that it grows and contracts with no rhyme or reason. Any concept of a 'master seniority list' assumes that at age 22 you get a number that guides you throughout the rest of your career. It makes no allowance for aircraft type experience, regional flying, long haul etc or for extensive periods of not working due company bankruptcy, having children, loss of licence and so forth. The real world is infinitely more complicated than that where some people leave other careers to fly, companies come and go and pilots decide to leave the industry. Furthermore it makes no allowance for the initial and ongoing employability of one candidate before another outside the company. You cannot just have some guy turning up at say BA, announcing he is Global Seniority List number 245,721 and demanding his appropriate place in the promised land above some innocent chap who is, alas, stuck forever at 245,722 - despite having worked there for 15 years. Seniority means that 'Captain Special', who is the Chief Pilot's wife's brother's tennis partner does not get preferential treatment over Fred Bloggs from a working class background, who has no important mates in the company but has slaved for years to get where he is.

Your comparisons with doctors, lawyers etc are invalid on a number of counts. First of all, a doctor's or lawyer's skill set is much more difficult to evaluate against a set of critieria that are clearly laid down. A pilot's skills can be clearly determined in simulator exercises to determine if he/she has the necessary skills to be a Captain. In addition a pilot's experience can be analysed hour by hour, so that it can be determined if they have the basic minimum experience to hold a command within his company. Incidentally, ask any doctor or lawyer to tell you hand-on-heart that their promotion system is fair - it absolutely is not and is decided in many case on wining and dining key bosses and clients plus the provision of 'favours' in all their various forms. I utterly reject that approach to promotion and see the seniority system as the only way of stopping that. May we be delivered in aviation from promotion on 'merit', which in most cases means sucking up to your boss and catching his eye over a curry and a drink down-route. I know that seniority is not perfect, and checks and balances need to be in place. I also accept that seniority only works in certain industries when all promotion candidates are basically doing the same job. It is, however, infinitely better than a system of global transfers where lucky people whose sole 'skill' was to start flying Cessna 150's the week before someone else and they then have a trump card to play at will for the rest of their lives. Suddenly, that guy gets the 'nod' over a more deserving candidate who has waited years within one company for an opportunity to advance. Leave airline managers to decide 'merit' and before you know it Chief Pilot's sons are promoted ahead of everyone else and the Captains are essentially 'grace and favour' appointees, employed at the whim of some senior bod whose next door neighbour gave him a good night out at the dog races or whatever. I absolutely cannot stand all that and would back a loyalty-based seniority system every time. If you want to advance in your company, do your time, prove your worth and take your chance when it comes - which it surely will in a seniority-based system.

Last edited by Norman Stanley Fletcher; 11th Oct 2010 at 18:44.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 19:14
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Superpilot

I have suggested and are in the process of putting together information for either "panorama" or "dispatches" regarding the state of this "industry" and the possible safety implications particularly with regard to any P2F. Lots of work to do do to anticipate the airlines response and the toothless CAA/JAA. Imagine going into hospital for a serious op and the consultant says"I,m not operating on you as a doctor straight out of med school has bunged us 35k to get some hands on time,that ok with you?"
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 19:49
  #105 (permalink)  
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Flieng

If you want support with anything then I'm sure you would get it from people on here, I would be happy to help in anyway.
I agree the only way anything is ever going to change is to get whats going on in the media and expose how low this industry has gone in order to save money by exploiting people entering the industry and disadvantaging those already in it!!

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Old 11th Oct 2010, 21:12
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Their arguments would be:

- Cadets have been in use at many airlines including BA, bmi, flybe, Thomas Cook, First Choice, Thomson, Monarch, Jet 2 amongst others.

- They have passed all of the CAA written exams and flight tests along the way.

- Simulator courses are all passed to the company and the regulatory authorities standard.

- Vigorous line training with experienced trainers

- Final line check passed to standard

They will turn our arguments about safety around and make us look like we are just interested in the salary drop of the new scheme.

How many members of the public are going to be interested in the 20-something FO who now earns 30-40k instead of 50k+...?!?

The argument about the medic is incorrect, it's more a case of "Our new med school student is being paid 30% less than he used to, but he has still gone through the same checking and exams as before, and he will be fully supervised by a highly experienced consultant. Are you happy?" Yes, of course.

I believe the argument about the drop in safety will be very hard to make stick, and the public wont care about so-called rich pilots still earning double the national average wage.

I think these schemes are absolute shite and a true sign of the future working conditions for us all, but I doubt anyone outside aviation could care less.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 23:45
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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flieng

To answer your point here and your question on the Jet2 thread: I do think the public would be interested but unfortunately I don't have much faith in the ability of these programme makers to make a convincing argument and if they get the message wrong then they risk long term damage to the argument. There is so much money at stake here that the airlines and as you say toothless CAA, will go to enormous lengths to prove how safe evrything is.

I remain to be corrected but I always get the impression they (programme makers) are only interested in the big dramatic soundbites whereas to address the problem properly would require one of of the old style investigative journalists to conduct some serious in depth research in order to produce a convincing argument. The Colgan crash at Buffalo N.Y. would certainly be a good starting point: Colgan Air Flight 3407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Part of the problem is that we as pilots, can't even seem to agree what the problem is or even if there is a problem, just witness the attempts at defending the shocking Jet2 package. Just think about it; the F/O salary is quoted somewhere as 41,000 (plus max 6.00 per sector) but they only get paid 70% of that so 28,700 but are also required to fork out somewher between 25k and 16k up front (depending on what you believe) How is anyone expected to live on 3,500 (not even taking tax into account) BUT some will attempt it and right there you have the recipe for "Colgan" syndrome to be played out, right here in the UK, whereby some pilots simply cannot afford proper accomodation, whilst they commute for a job which they have accepted in desperation.

Another area for such research of course is the MPL (Multi-crew Pilot Licence), yet another vehicle to produce even less experienced pilots at even less cost and heavily supported by Boeing Flight Training for one (Pretty sure Airbus won't be far behind)

I am aware however, that there is a book being written (not sure of publication date) called "Race to the bottom" but the cynical side of me says its all too late and the bean counters, aided by far too many self centred and selfish pilots have won and there is no way back from the model we now have.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 01:20
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Norman Stanley Fletcher

I have been in this industry a lot longer than you and I can remember a time in the seventies when there were only really 2 scheduled Jet Operators of note BEA/BOAC & BCal. The only way into BA/BOAC was through Hamble. You then entered a seniority based system with a long time to command. Promotion was not on merit just time served, no rewrd for good performance. The airlines themselves were really government employment agencies offering poor service at high cost. Competition was kept out of the market. Even ex-service pilots (and especially navigators) were effectively excluded for a while under this Soviet style system.

What has offered you opportunity and has allowed you, NSF, to advance so far is the free-market, the liberalisation of air carriers, the survival of the most astute.

Now you NSF having got yourself in a good position want a return to the seventies. I believe you may be a good old fashioned Glaswegian socialist. Do you intend that the airline industry go the way of Scottish shipbuilding, union closed shops lots of power to the unions, pesumably lots of industrial action until you get to tell the management how to run the company.

Your allegations of nepotism etc are very naive. have you never met a pilot who claims to have had his career halted by the trainer/checker he does not get on with? You think that aviation is somehow special? Insulated from the real world? How do you eliminate unfairness at that level, or any level. Your seniority system traps individuals from moving jobs and bettering themselves just as you did. And didn't you leave an airline with a seniority system to advance your career (as the system was holding you back) couldn't wait your 'fair' turn eh NSF? But you expect everyone else to?

The best way to ensure fair terms and conditions is a thriving, expanding industry with free market conditions both in the market place and the employment market. That has been my experience over the last thirty years in this industry.

Fairness! When was life fair? Under any system someone wil get screwed and others will be unfairly rewarded. At least the free market gives us a chance to compete on merit and mobilty to move on if it doesn't.

You are no longer in the employ of HMG NSF. easyJet is owned by the shareholders, the want return on capital and they expect the board to deliver. If they don't the money walks. If you don't like the way the company is run you can do the same.

Like most good socialists you want to benefit from the free market when times are good but protection from it when times are not so good.

Just how much of your lecturing here has to do with benefitting your fellow man an how much is protecting the position of NSF?

If you are that moral, you could find a seniority based company that is actually expanding or recruiting I am sure you are free to apply for a First Officers position just like everyone else.

But the real problem I have with your holier than thou, condescending, lectures on PPRuNe is that you played the free market system to better yourself and now you want to limit others opportunity to do the same.

Oh sorry I forgot conditions were different then (exapnding free market) and you disadvantaged absoloutely no-one, ever, not one person, not even for a minute. So thats ok then.

Last edited by Major Cleve Saville; 12th Oct 2010 at 01:39.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 08:50
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Well said Major, could not have put it better myself!
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 09:28
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE]When you talk of free movement of labour, that assumes a constant size labour market that never changes from year to year/QUOTE]

No it doesn't.

[QUOTE] would suggest 5 things - aptitude, training, knowledge, skill and experience/QUOTE]

The very things that a merit based system can promote.

[QUOTE] It makes no allowance for aircraft type experience, regional flying, long haul etc or for extensive periods of not working due company bankruptcy, having children, loss of licence and so forth/QUOTE]

Your seniority system certainly does not make allowances for this. Any redundancy means 'go back to Old Kent Road'!

[QUOTE]Any concept of a 'master seniority list' assumes that at age 22 you get a number that guides you throughout the rest of your career/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? I never suggested replacing one rubbish system with another rubbish system. I am talking about MERIT. This has nothing to do with golf clubs or starry eyes over curries by the way. I completely agree with the Major. Your views are naive, perhaps even paranoid.

[QUOTE]so that it can be determined if they have the basic minimum experience to hold a command/QUOTE]

Glad to hear that EJ are not interested in the best people for the job, merely those who can just about step up to the mark. No wonder you are always late.

How does your seniority system help all those within (or more appropriately without) your company, on flexi contracts etc. I assume they have no seniority, and are therefore nothing more than second class citizens in your eyes.

The Major is right about your self serving approach, and I fear it is not worth having the argument. I can only hope that your seniority system keeps you stuck where you are, eating crap sandwiches until retirement comes.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 09:32
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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That's right Major! Dammit, I remember having to walk through 4 feet of snow in order to get my jet! Today's pilots are a bunch of fairies.

I remember like it was yesterday, Feb. 5 1974...Amanda one of my favorite stewardesses came to the cockpit and asked," how I liked my tea?" I replied, "damn, you stupid woman....I like it how I liked it yesterday and the day before that!" I then told her that she had no place in an aircraft, especially considering that she was stupid and pushing 30 years of age! I then gave her a tissue to wipe away a few pathetic tears and then told her to get back to work.

Major.....you are right, people like NSF show little respect for their elders and need to be put in their place.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 11:15
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Some rather unkind and aggressive posts. As the person you berate as being self serving is already a TRE etc he is unlikely to benefit from a seniority list. However, colleagues who have served for a number of years and reached the required standard might.
It would be quite difficult to choose ,on merit, between an external DEC and internal SFO, how would HR compare training records ( if available),performance etc from different companies?
If I, as a captain, were made redundant, is it fair that I should leapfrog someone who has worked 5 or 10 years for their company and been assessed as suitable for command? I would not feel hard done by starting in the right seat.
I think it is wrong to solely employ low experience F/Os and would prefer the mixed recruitment of a few years ago, the difficult financial situation some of the young lads are in with bankruptcy threatened is probably moving towards a less safe operation.
While cost is king, it is cheaper to promote an expensive SFO and replace them with a cadet than keep him as a SFO and recruit DEC
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 11:49
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Here here studi.
>NSF point is more valid now then ever as the Airline has started maturing. To present a long term career to SFO's and FO's there must be allowance for loyalty.

Last edited by SKY's4ME; 12th Oct 2010 at 12:25.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 12:04
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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The Colgan crash at Buffalo N.Y. would certainly be a good starting point: Colgan Air Flight 3407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No, it wouldn't.

The Colgan FO had over 2000 hours with over 770 on type, hardly a 200 hour cadet.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 12:31
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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"I have suggested and are in the process of putting together information for either "panorama" or "dispatches" regarding the state of this "industry"



Yet another thread that started out addressing some interesting recruitment issues and questions, only to be hijacked by the anti cadet brigade.

As Norman Stanley Fletcher has said in the past, The CTC cadet entry that people are entering Easy on is hardly comparable to the P2F schemes that Eaglejet and the ATP scheme with line training at BMI are.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 12:54
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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NSF point is more valid now then ever as the Airline has started maturing
Exactly, and this is the point a few on this thread are clearly missing. It isn't three years to command at easy anymore. There is a long, long list of pilots in the airline who have been here years and are suitably qualified, awaiting assessment. As the airline reduces its expansion the time spent in the RHS will increase. We don't need DECs' anymore. I agree it is a poor state of affairs that only those from CTC are allowed to join, and the company are making a mistake with their recruitment policy of F/Os.

As for comments such as

Glad to hear that EJ are not interested in the best people for the job, merely those who can just about step up to the mark. No wonder you are always late.
Can't you come up with something more original? Our safety record over the past 15 years speaks for itself. We clearly do have the best people for the job.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 13:46
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Hi all,

Newbie here, so please tread carefully... I'd heard from a friend that Oxford or doing a similar scheme, or is CTC the only route in these days?
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 13:46
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Seniority represents both direct and indirect discrimination and once tested in the Courts should become history

From October 2011 the 2006 Age Discrimination Act will be fully implemented and the 5 year period for companies and unions to become fully compliant will be over.

Pure seniority based selection procedures in all industries, not just aviation, will become a thing of the past, and not before time, for all the good reasons mentioned in a few of the previous posts.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 13:55
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Jb5000

The doctor analogy is relevant. I think most people would ask questions why a brand new doctor is performing an operation because he,s paid 35 grand to the hospital to get experience(especially if it was on them!). Questions which most people would ask of airline pilots paying airlines 35grand to "get experience" flying the paying public around! Whether programme makers or the press would be interested remains to be seen. As regards you,re former points, yes I,m sure airlines/regulator(use the term loosely) would make exact same but the Thomas cook accident report is worth a read. Were those high standards maintained with a paying "cadet"? The strong suggestion is not. As I mentioned previously money can alter "standards" if the senior pilots allow it (within any organisation). I suspect starbear is correct, maybe we are as a proffesion in the uk at a point of no return to decency,integrity and respect. What a shame particularly for new pilots.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 13:55
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Groundloop

Bit of crossed wires here.

My reference to the Colgan one was due to issues around the inability of poorly paid crews to afford proper rest facilities whilst commuting and so is very relevant. I was not suggesting anything to do with experience in that case, though I grant you that answer was in response to flieng's point about P2F and general reductions in terms and conditions.
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