Any recruitment likely at Easy?
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Jb5000
The doctor analogy is relevant. I think most people would ask questions why a brand new doctor is performing an operation because he,s paid 35 grand to the hospital to get experience(especially if it was on them!). Questions which most people would ask of airline pilots paying airlines 35grand to "get experience" flying the paying public around! Whether programme makers or the press would be interested remains to be seen. As regards you,re former points, yes I,m sure airlines/regulator(use the term loosely) would make exact same but the Thomas cook accident report is worth a read. Were those high standards maintained with a paying "cadet"? The strong suggestion is not. As I mentioned previously money can alter "standards" if the senior pilots allow it (within any organisation). I suspect starbear is correct, maybe we are as a proffesion in the uk at a point of no return to decency,integrity and respect. What a shame particularly for new pilots.
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Bit of crossed wires here.
My reference to the Colgan one was due to issues around the inability of poorly paid crews to afford proper rest facilities whilst commuting and so is very relevant. I was not suggesting anything to do with experience in that case, though I grant you that answer was in response to flieng's point about P2F and general reductions in terms and conditions.
My reference to the Colgan one was due to issues around the inability of poorly paid crews to afford proper rest facilities whilst commuting and so is very relevant. I was not suggesting anything to do with experience in that case, though I grant you that answer was in response to flieng's point about P2F and general reductions in terms and conditions.
I agree here with 'NSF' and 'BITMORERIGHTRUDDER' . A DEC that has never flown the operation in the kind that easyjet is doing might have a lot of struggle going online with easyjet, especially if he has been flying long haul for the last 20 year.
It would take a lot more training than training some of the SFO's who are used to the whole operation, aircraft etc.
Second, those that say, what if you would be made redundant and can't find a job as a captain you would think diffirently.
My answer would be what if you are the SFO and you are being bypassed by another DEC because he is on the so called eternal senority list after you have done 10 years in the company. It is all perspective and which side you are on. It is very unfortunate that people are being made redundant, but you can't expect airlines to give you all the loyalty, rewards etc that someone has build up to someone who has not flown a day in the company.
I agree that experience is nowadays not being recognised within airlines when it comes down to recruitment and I sincerly hope that that will change. But there has to be limit in how far you will go and my limit would be disadvantaging the staff in your own airline.
It would take a lot more training than training some of the SFO's who are used to the whole operation, aircraft etc.
Second, those that say, what if you would be made redundant and can't find a job as a captain you would think diffirently.
My answer would be what if you are the SFO and you are being bypassed by another DEC because he is on the so called eternal senority list after you have done 10 years in the company. It is all perspective and which side you are on. It is very unfortunate that people are being made redundant, but you can't expect airlines to give you all the loyalty, rewards etc that someone has build up to someone who has not flown a day in the company.
I agree that experience is nowadays not being recognised within airlines when it comes down to recruitment and I sincerly hope that that will change. But there has to be limit in how far you will go and my limit would be disadvantaging the staff in your own airline.
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Major Saville - Delighted and impressed as I am at your longevity in the airline industry, you have to win the argument rather than assume your position give you greater insight than the rest of us. I am highly amused to be called a socialist - many an insult has been levelled at me in my life but never that one! Just out of interest, were I to be a Mancunian or Liverpudlian socialist, would my views be more acceptable than those of a Glaswegian socialist? The slight difficulty with some of the posts on here is that they are essentially personal insults, and largely devoid of any cogent or reasoned discussion points. By all means see me as self-serving - that is for others who know me to judge the truth of, and I would not seek to rob you of your assured position. For what it is worth, I personally have nothing whatsoever to gain from seniority at easyJet. My sole interest is that the pilots already working here are spared the inevitable abuses of position that occur when no protections are in place to prevent them.
Like so much that passes for reasonableness in life, through the croodile tears and feigned shock, all I really hear are the voices of vested interests couched in terms of genuine concern. Would not life be so much easier if all those nasty young First Officers at easyJet were swept aside to make way for real pilots with proper experience? They can do their time like the rest of us - get them to the back of the queue where they belong. As the good Major has observed, the changes in the airline industry of recent years has made way for companies like ours to flourish, and like many others at easyJet I am a net beneficiary. Why on earth should the pilots at easyJet roll over to let in the Billy Bunters of the airline industry who have suddenly seen a dripping roast pass by in front of them? Join the queue chaps.
Back to the main topic, there are interesting times ahead at easyJet. The signs are that we yet empty our command pool in the next year or so. The very short-sighted position of only employing 200-hour pilots instead of those with signficant experience to smooth the experience demographics of the company, may yet come to bite us in a big way. I have always held that we need to recruit in a balanced manner, but as many will recognise, we have not done so. That is not to denigrate our excellent CTC pilots. The problem is they have low hours and will not be available for promotion in the next 2 years - either through lack of hours or because most will have left to join BA! That could yet open the door to a radical change of employment practices within easyJet - few things concentrate the mind more than aircraft sat on the ground with no one to command them. I am much criticised for being too positive about easyJet, and I unashamedly enjoy working here. I want to see a company where effort of the pilots inside the company is rewarded, rather than those outside coming in to take the best deals. I am not anti-DECs per se - but as long as there are suitably qualified FOs here to promote, they have to get first bite of the cherry. Self-serving? Maybe. Concerned for our own guys first? I hope so.
Like so much that passes for reasonableness in life, through the croodile tears and feigned shock, all I really hear are the voices of vested interests couched in terms of genuine concern. Would not life be so much easier if all those nasty young First Officers at easyJet were swept aside to make way for real pilots with proper experience? They can do their time like the rest of us - get them to the back of the queue where they belong. As the good Major has observed, the changes in the airline industry of recent years has made way for companies like ours to flourish, and like many others at easyJet I am a net beneficiary. Why on earth should the pilots at easyJet roll over to let in the Billy Bunters of the airline industry who have suddenly seen a dripping roast pass by in front of them? Join the queue chaps.
Back to the main topic, there are interesting times ahead at easyJet. The signs are that we yet empty our command pool in the next year or so. The very short-sighted position of only employing 200-hour pilots instead of those with signficant experience to smooth the experience demographics of the company, may yet come to bite us in a big way. I have always held that we need to recruit in a balanced manner, but as many will recognise, we have not done so. That is not to denigrate our excellent CTC pilots. The problem is they have low hours and will not be available for promotion in the next 2 years - either through lack of hours or because most will have left to join BA! That could yet open the door to a radical change of employment practices within easyJet - few things concentrate the mind more than aircraft sat on the ground with no one to command them. I am much criticised for being too positive about easyJet, and I unashamedly enjoy working here. I want to see a company where effort of the pilots inside the company is rewarded, rather than those outside coming in to take the best deals. I am not anti-DECs per se - but as long as there are suitably qualified FOs here to promote, they have to get first bite of the cherry. Self-serving? Maybe. Concerned for our own guys first? I hope so.
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Guys, there are no and will not be any DEC's while there are SFO's in the command pool, my guess is that by 2013 DEC's will be back as there are no SFO's ready. As long as it does not disadvantage someone ready for the command I see no issue, EZY have taken them in the past alongside internal promotions and it never slowed any commands down, it was a matter of pure volume. Just over 4 years to command is still very quick, over 100 commands internally next year is huge no other UK carrier would even be close in terms of time to command.
As for Seniority, EZY pretty much has it in the most legal form available that was agreed during consultation last year.
Right, back in the box.........
As for Seniority, EZY pretty much has it in the most legal form available that was agreed during consultation last year.
Right, back in the box.........
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Yes very interesting times ahead.
NSF is right, the company may well be making a rod for its own back in only recruiting 200 hour cadets. Time will tell and the companies ability to sort out its internal difficulties will be key in retaining the more experienced F/Os who we will need to step up to command in the next couple of years. Bear in mind the aircraft orders tail off after 2012 and Stelios is still keen to limit expansion and pay a dividend despite sorting out the brand license issue.
Many of the F/O's have sacrificed a great deal and taken a huge risk to be with us and some of them work under pretty crappy t&c's. I for one will support them all the way in progressing to command and defend their right to have first pickings. If we passed people over in favour of external candidates it would be an outrage. That said we could run out of internal candidates and then we would need to look outside. There is also a business review occurring and recruitment may be reviewed as part of this which could lead to a policy change.
Personaly I can see clear value in taking cadets, integrating them into our operation and developing them all the way to command and beyond. They become a known product and risk is more easily managed. However for it to work easyJet need to retain them and on their current terms that could be tricky.
NSF is right, the company may well be making a rod for its own back in only recruiting 200 hour cadets. Time will tell and the companies ability to sort out its internal difficulties will be key in retaining the more experienced F/Os who we will need to step up to command in the next couple of years. Bear in mind the aircraft orders tail off after 2012 and Stelios is still keen to limit expansion and pay a dividend despite sorting out the brand license issue.
Many of the F/O's have sacrificed a great deal and taken a huge risk to be with us and some of them work under pretty crappy t&c's. I for one will support them all the way in progressing to command and defend their right to have first pickings. If we passed people over in favour of external candidates it would be an outrage. That said we could run out of internal candidates and then we would need to look outside. There is also a business review occurring and recruitment may be reviewed as part of this which could lead to a policy change.
Personaly I can see clear value in taking cadets, integrating them into our operation and developing them all the way to command and beyond. They become a known product and risk is more easily managed. However for it to work easyJet need to retain them and on their current terms that could be tricky.
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I have asked before and I will ask again: why the email from CTC recently asking suitably qualified Captains to update their details at CTC for "upcoming UK and European DEC A320 positions"?
Far from being an old schooler, who can't pass up a free dinner - or whatever NSF alluded to, I'm young, qualified, experienced and current.
I've worked hard to achieve, hold and make a success of my Command. Like others, I hope easyJet recruit DEC's again soon.
Self serving. You bet. That's exactly why I left my excellent A340 RHS job to join a small, expanding A320 company as a DEC. Now, I'd like to join easyJet. That was always my hope.
Far from being an old schooler, who can't pass up a free dinner - or whatever NSF alluded to, I'm young, qualified, experienced and current.
I've worked hard to achieve, hold and make a success of my Command. Like others, I hope easyJet recruit DEC's again soon.
Self serving. You bet. That's exactly why I left my excellent A340 RHS job to join a small, expanding A320 company as a DEC. Now, I'd like to join easyJet. That was always my hope.
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the company may well be making a rod for its own back in only recruiting 200 hour cadets
Personaly I can see clear value in taking cadets, integrating them into our operation and developing them all the way to command and beyond
It's far too brutal.
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stansdead I don't wish you or others in your position ill but you will appreciate that it is right we look after our own first. They have worked hard too and taken real risks to be were they are. They will have come through our training system and will be a known quantity which will always make them less risk than someone from outside on both safety and operational grounds. I'm not saying that no one from outside would be suitable, far from it, but the associated risks are greater because you are taking an unknow product (peoples files don't follow them around unlike the airforce) that is unfamiliar with the operation.
Craggemore I agree which is why I qualified my statement by mentioning that current T&Cs will make it difficult to retain our people. Maybe that will change under our new CEO but I'm not holding my breath.
Craggemore I agree which is why I qualified my statement by mentioning that current T&Cs will make it difficult to retain our people. Maybe that will change under our new CEO but I'm not holding my breath.
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NSF - easyJet a 'dripping roast'? I have had 2 brief flirtations with easyJet. The first back in the mid 90's when it was a 2 aircraft operation which was very enjoyable. The second in the 21st century which, on the level of plain old fashioned employer - employee relationship level was not.
Call me old school Billy Bunterish but just being a number on the end of a telephone ordered about by someone you have never met seems rather impersonal. It is hard to get truly engaged and feel part of a company like easyJet or Ryanair etc.
These are my impressions:
EasyJet is a sales and marketing company which just happens to be selling airline tickets the employees (pilots crew) are a means of production nothing more or less.
The smart cadets realise that a career with any low cost carrier is not much of a career. Basically 40 years flying the same sorts of flights on the same or similar type. The smart cadets will do their sums and move on. And quite frankly they deserve better after the investment they have made.
The management of easyJet know that their pilots have a 'life expectancy' of about 7 years, they expect a high turnover. This is a result of the business model. It will never change. They could choose to be like SouthWest they don't, why? Because the people who run easyJet (and Ryanair) have no interest in or understanding of aviation. Whereas pilots are the opposite, in it for the flying not interested in sales or marketing.
Seniority lists will not change this, a free market will at least ensure market rate for the job.
I work with a few ex-easyJet pilots and quite frankly if this is a 'dripping roast' we would rather be a vegetarians.
Do I want to work for any low cost carrier - no. There is more to life than being a number ordered about by a spotty youth on a telephone.
Life is short, quality of life is important and I, and alot of others did not get into aviation for this type of lifestyle.
I work for a company where I at least get to say good morning to all the staff eye to eye. Where we treat each other with mutual respect and I feel I am valued and a part of the organisation.
Oh and NSF I do know you.
Call me old school Billy Bunterish but just being a number on the end of a telephone ordered about by someone you have never met seems rather impersonal. It is hard to get truly engaged and feel part of a company like easyJet or Ryanair etc.
These are my impressions:
EasyJet is a sales and marketing company which just happens to be selling airline tickets the employees (pilots crew) are a means of production nothing more or less.
The smart cadets realise that a career with any low cost carrier is not much of a career. Basically 40 years flying the same sorts of flights on the same or similar type. The smart cadets will do their sums and move on. And quite frankly they deserve better after the investment they have made.
The management of easyJet know that their pilots have a 'life expectancy' of about 7 years, they expect a high turnover. This is a result of the business model. It will never change. They could choose to be like SouthWest they don't, why? Because the people who run easyJet (and Ryanair) have no interest in or understanding of aviation. Whereas pilots are the opposite, in it for the flying not interested in sales or marketing.
Seniority lists will not change this, a free market will at least ensure market rate for the job.
I work with a few ex-easyJet pilots and quite frankly if this is a 'dripping roast' we would rather be a vegetarians.
Do I want to work for any low cost carrier - no. There is more to life than being a number ordered about by a spotty youth on a telephone.
Life is short, quality of life is important and I, and alot of others did not get into aviation for this type of lifestyle.
I work for a company where I at least get to say good morning to all the staff eye to eye. Where we treat each other with mutual respect and I feel I am valued and a part of the organisation.
Oh and NSF I do know you.
from all directions.
There is a certain attraction to gaining you Command in a large jet airline in your 20's and you need to have been in Ezy/Ryr to have achieved that or to be able to achieve it. Don't discount that factor, it can set you up for life.
I don't think the pool of SFO's will run dry. There was a massive spike of recruitment circa 2006 which must now be getting close to being ready. Then there is the previous bad experiences with DEC's (LGW banzai approach etc).
WWW
I don't think the pool of SFO's will run dry. There was a massive spike of recruitment circa 2006 which must now be getting close to being ready. Then there is the previous bad experiences with DEC's (LGW banzai approach etc).
WWW
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WWW
...and then there are very sensible, talented and safe DEC's too.
As NSF said himself, he was a DEC.
It seems that everyone who didn't join easyJet - for whatever reason- in the "good old days" must be really sh1t. At least so it seems.
6000+ hours. 5800 jet, flown big and small Airbus, Boeing. Been in every continent of the world, never had any incident. Never failed any checks. Integrated student. CTC ATP academy cadet (when that was a really tough thing to be selected for - I.e. When it was free of charge). Current Airbus Captain with management role.....I could go on....
What the heck is a Banzai approach? I honestly don't know....
....please enlighten me!!! And why are CTC talking about DEC jobs? Still, no-one dare address that Elephant in the room!!
As NSF said himself, he was a DEC.
It seems that everyone who didn't join easyJet - for whatever reason- in the "good old days" must be really sh1t. At least so it seems.
6000+ hours. 5800 jet, flown big and small Airbus, Boeing. Been in every continent of the world, never had any incident. Never failed any checks. Integrated student. CTC ATP academy cadet (when that was a really tough thing to be selected for - I.e. When it was free of charge). Current Airbus Captain with management role.....I could go on....
What the heck is a Banzai approach? I honestly don't know....
....please enlighten me!!! And why are CTC talking about DEC jobs? Still, no-one dare address that Elephant in the room!!
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Current Airbus Captain with management role.....I could go on....
Major Cleve Saville, hear hear! Very good points indeed!
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There is a certain attraction to gaining you Command in a large jet airline in your 20's and you need to have been in Ezy/Ryr to have achieved that or to be able to achieve it. Don't discount that factor, it can set you up for life.
Unfortunately, though, there are an equal number of people, if not more, who see easyJet as a stepping stone.
Personally, I joined CTC before things became as sour as they now are. I will be trying to get a permanent contract with easyJet soon, having already flown with them for some time through CTC. If I were to gain this contract, the prospect of a relatively quick command at or before the age of 30, would certainly make me want to stay.
It is a shame, however, that the company expect to see us come and go and are happy to do so.
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Stansdead, you went to an airline that pays a captain's salary which is less than the SFO salary in our European bases to get a command and then you think you can come queue jumping here? You went for the command which was attractive to you. Use it where you are. It is folly to expect people in easy to step aside for your ambitions. Hopefully, DEC is a thing that will never be needed in easy again.
Well said!
It is true that we are now at the size were we can look after ourself's regarding Captains.
All we have to do now is create realistic and attractive new entry FO contracts..
It is true that we are now at the size were we can look after ourself's regarding Captains.
All we have to do now is create realistic and attractive new entry FO contracts..
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the prospect of a relatively quick command at or before the age of 30, would certainly make me want to stay.
As a CTC cadet in your early 20's, year 1 at Easy is great fun.
Year 2 is also good.
Year 3 you're starting to get a little hacked off with things.
Year 4 you start to consider leaving but are unsure as command might be coming up.
Year 5 you now want to leave but have a command course planned.
Year 6 you turn down that chance to join other Airlines to pass your command course.
So now a Year 1 Captain and the extra money is great.
Year 2 Captain and the gained experience settles you nicely into the job.
Year 3 Captain and...............................then what?
30 years old, Captain, good income but another 35 years until retirement with Easyjet? Thats a really tough call.
Personally, I don't think anyone could stay for a whole career here the way things are at the moment.
I only hope that 'uSay' is taken seriously by the new management for these hopes and aspirations to become reality.
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Craggenmore..
Indeed. But only time will tell. If I get a permanent contract and if I manage to get a reasonably quick command, my mind may have changed by then. Perhaps I will want to try and go through the training route, perhaps I may be sick to death of the place and exploring every oppportunity to get out. I need to make sure I get a contract before any of this is a consideration, anyway.
I hope uSay is taken seriously too. Certainly every pilot I have spoken to, contract, FO or Captain, has had some strong input about the way things are. I think it's such a shame that they haven't done more to keep their pilots. Perhaps things might change if there is an exodus... But then again, maybe not.
Indeed. But only time will tell. If I get a permanent contract and if I manage to get a reasonably quick command, my mind may have changed by then. Perhaps I will want to try and go through the training route, perhaps I may be sick to death of the place and exploring every oppportunity to get out. I need to make sure I get a contract before any of this is a consideration, anyway.
I hope uSay is taken seriously too. Certainly every pilot I have spoken to, contract, FO or Captain, has had some strong input about the way things are. I think it's such a shame that they haven't done more to keep their pilots. Perhaps things might change if there is an exodus... But then again, maybe not.