Industrial Action at Flybe?
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Lord MB (and any others with similar views) wake up and smell the coffee:
Pay - after the first 2% rise:
a flybe jet Captain will earn £21000 less than ej Captain.
a flybe tp Captain will earn £27000 less than ej Captain.
a flybe jet FO will earn £3500 less than ej FO.
a flybe tp FO will earn £15000 less than ej FO.
Per Diems - because of ejs sector pay verses our laughable £1.98/duty hour:
an ej captain gets more for doing one sector than a flybe captain gets for a 12 hour day.
an ej FO gets more for doing two sectors than a flybe FO gets for a 12 hour day.
Days Off - I agree that on average ej pilots probably do longer flying days than flybe pilots, and 5 earlies on the run must be tiring, however:
ej get 150 days off a year, while flybe get 108 - that's 42 extra days off per year, or about a month and a half !!!!!!!
It is the long-standing spineless attitude of Lord MB and his ilk that has lead to the terms and conditions at flybe - the UKs third biggest pilot employer - being so far behind the rest of the industry. In voting yes to this deal these craven management apologists are both stabbing their colleagues at flybe (who are now developing a spine - evolution in progress - its beautiful to watch) in the back and, indirectly, jepodising pilots terms and conditions throughout the rest of the industry.
My NO vote is in - I am ready to strike.
Pay - after the first 2% rise:
a flybe jet Captain will earn £21000 less than ej Captain.
a flybe tp Captain will earn £27000 less than ej Captain.
a flybe jet FO will earn £3500 less than ej FO.
a flybe tp FO will earn £15000 less than ej FO.
Per Diems - because of ejs sector pay verses our laughable £1.98/duty hour:
an ej captain gets more for doing one sector than a flybe captain gets for a 12 hour day.
an ej FO gets more for doing two sectors than a flybe FO gets for a 12 hour day.
Days Off - I agree that on average ej pilots probably do longer flying days than flybe pilots, and 5 earlies on the run must be tiring, however:
ej get 150 days off a year, while flybe get 108 - that's 42 extra days off per year, or about a month and a half !!!!!!!
It is the long-standing spineless attitude of Lord MB and his ilk that has lead to the terms and conditions at flybe - the UKs third biggest pilot employer - being so far behind the rest of the industry. In voting yes to this deal these craven management apologists are both stabbing their colleagues at flybe (who are now developing a spine - evolution in progress - its beautiful to watch) in the back and, indirectly, jepodising pilots terms and conditions throughout the rest of the industry.
My NO vote is in - I am ready to strike.
Join Date: May 2009
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Resurgam
I am proud to have you as a colleague. I am also prepared to down tools. We are a growing majority.
Our integrity and principles are more important than French's bank account that's for sure.
Let's show the management that treating pilots fairly is more cost effective than shafting us.
I am proud to have you as a colleague. I am also prepared to down tools. We are a growing majority.
Our integrity and principles are more important than French's bank account that's for sure.
Let's show the management that treating pilots fairly is more cost effective than shafting us.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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I agree with a lot of what you all say. there is no doubt you are underpaid.
But as I say to anyone who talks about industrial action with the exception of the BACX guys:
Did you know the package before you signed up? If so why did you join?
Stick at the negotiations though, I fully agree with you. But I am confused as to why some of the more vocal folk here joined Flybe in the first place.
The question also sticks in my mind. What does a turboprop First Officer feel he/she is worth? "when I were a lad" (in best yorkshire accent!) £2k take home was, and still is a decent salary. You are in a completely different job to an EZY FO so why should you be paid the same?
But as I say to anyone who talks about industrial action with the exception of the BACX guys:
Did you know the package before you signed up? If so why did you join?
Stick at the negotiations though, I fully agree with you. But I am confused as to why some of the more vocal folk here joined Flybe in the first place.
The question also sticks in my mind. What does a turboprop First Officer feel he/she is worth? "when I were a lad" (in best yorkshire accent!) £2k take home was, and still is a decent salary. You are in a completely different job to an EZY FO so why should you be paid the same?
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Did you know the package before you signed up? If so why did you join?
I for one would like to maintain or, shock horror, even improve my lifestyle. Unfortunately Flybe's latest offer is a reduction and a big one and it was set to be a reduction for the next 5 years at least.
Would you accept that?
Good job I left.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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It was said tongue in cheek wingo. However I do maintain that taking home £2k is a decent salary. Paying for training included. Go to EZY and fork out over £24k of salary for the TR. That's got to come from somewhere. I have lost track of their schemes but the last one I saw was cash up front so that is 24k of taxed salary. More like 36k then.
I'm not saying we should be grateful to have a job at all, I agree there needs to be a good offer next, not the drivel that has been forthcoming so far. But i get exceptionally irritated reading comments from people in Flybe for 5 minutes getting militant about their package.
LSM, aspirations are one thing but if someone joined say two years ago, or later as a cadet, they knew what the pay scale was. Bar an RPI increase which sadly we are lacking right now, I don't see what they have to complain about.
I'm not saying we should be grateful to have a job at all, I agree there needs to be a good offer next, not the drivel that has been forthcoming so far. But i get exceptionally irritated reading comments from people in Flybe for 5 minutes getting militant about their package.
LSM, aspirations are one thing but if someone joined say two years ago, or later as a cadet, they knew what the pay scale was. Bar an RPI increase which sadly we are lacking right now, I don't see what they have to complain about.
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Wingo Wango, I completely agree, I signed up for Flybe with the understanding that I would never earn the same as BA, EZY etc and I do not expect a 30% pay rise to bring me inline with them, HOWEVER, I did sign up to an airline that was rapidly growing from a smalltime player into a very large european operator. I don't think it's wrong that we should expect that our pay and conditions should improve inline with that.
When directors are picking up this level of pay rise I think it's an insult to be told that they can't even match inflation. Until I see something that includes inflation + something to represent the scale of our expansion then it's a no from me. Then we'll cross the small matter of scheduling...!
When directors are picking up this level of pay rise I think it's an insult to be told that they can't even match inflation. Until I see something that includes inflation + something to represent the scale of our expansion then it's a no from me. Then we'll cross the small matter of scheduling...!
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Yes but one would argue that just because it was the only airline recruiting two years ago people shouldn't have joined expecting a vast salary increase down the line. If they could have earned more elsewhere, be it away from flying then it is a free market. Again some people save before learning to fly.
Sadly the " my loan costs me £800 a month so I deserve more money" is another symptom of the buy a job quick fix craze which is destroying this industry. The chap who took the flybe job with crippling repayments may well have been better served not being in the situation were he is in so much debt. Plenty of people have qualified without these horrendous figures, but by saving and learning to fly as they go.
I can't stress enough that I am on the side of a pay increase. I just take issue with some of the reasoning I see here.
Sadly the " my loan costs me £800 a month so I deserve more money" is another symptom of the buy a job quick fix craze which is destroying this industry. The chap who took the flybe job with crippling repayments may well have been better served not being in the situation were he is in so much debt. Plenty of people have qualified without these horrendous figures, but by saving and learning to fly as they go.
I can't stress enough that I am on the side of a pay increase. I just take issue with some of the reasoning I see here.
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James Brown
And your attitude isn't? I joined Flybe because I didn't have to buy a TR and I thought they well actually I was told by the recruiters that Flybe is a decent employer and the company is going places, good bases, good lifestyle etc (it's all lies)
This is about the management rewarding themselves huge amounts and leaving the employees out in the cold. Morale is at an all time LOW.
We have several plus millionaires walking around Exeter. We have been lied to. We constantly have stupid emails. We hear about rewards we hear about this about that. Then we get financially raped. They treat us like fools, constantly trying to pull the wool over our eyes and treat us like mugs.
To average £2k PCM Net you will need to be a Yr3 Dash FO and fly plenty.
We don't expect easyjet/virgin/ba/Thomascook/NASA pay we expect a fair comparison. Even ignoring other airline payscales we have all helped the company to get where it is we accepted a pay freeze, now we deserve a Pat on the Back...
my loan costs me £800 a month so I deserve more money" is another symptom of the buy a job quick fix craze which is destroying this industry.
This is about the management rewarding themselves huge amounts and leaving the employees out in the cold. Morale is at an all time LOW.
We have several plus millionaires walking around Exeter. We have been lied to. We constantly have stupid emails. We hear about rewards we hear about this about that. Then we get financially raped. They treat us like fools, constantly trying to pull the wool over our eyes and treat us like mugs.
To average £2k PCM Net you will need to be a Yr3 Dash FO and fly plenty.
We don't expect easyjet/virgin/ba/Thomascook/NASA pay we expect a fair comparison. Even ignoring other airline payscales we have all helped the company to get where it is we accepted a pay freeze, now we deserve a Pat on the Back...
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Thats the first grounded non emotional post you have made here and I agree 100%.
We may have to agree to disagree on my view that everyone joined in full posession of the facts and terms as they stood and were published. But it is my opinion and thankfully we are all entitled to one.
But yes, now that shares are available they should be being given to the staff as they were when Ezy floated. That may be a way to retain staff when this great mystical free recruitment drive starts. Though I fear it will not be as free or on as good terms as some here may hope.
The free market dictates that the risk takers are entitled to higher rewards. I have no issue with directors earning good money. Were I in that position though I would drive a Ford fiesta to work. Keep a low profile etc.
Incidentally an acquaintance is interviewing next week for a job on a King Air paying more than a 195 skipper. Now how does that work!
We may have to agree to disagree on my view that everyone joined in full posession of the facts and terms as they stood and were published. But it is my opinion and thankfully we are all entitled to one.
But yes, now that shares are available they should be being given to the staff as they were when Ezy floated. That may be a way to retain staff when this great mystical free recruitment drive starts. Though I fear it will not be as free or on as good terms as some here may hope.
The free market dictates that the risk takers are entitled to higher rewards. I have no issue with directors earning good money. Were I in that position though I would drive a Ford fiesta to work. Keep a low profile etc.
Incidentally an acquaintance is interviewing next week for a job on a King Air paying more than a 195 skipper. Now how does that work!
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james brown
I can see what you are saying and I share your views to a point. You have alot of new sponsored cadets who signed up to the various Flybe schemes knowing full well what the costs involved were, and what the salary was (£1700 take home) before they signed on the dotted line. You cannot have it both ways, sign up to it knowing what it is then whinge your tits off that you cannot pay back your loans on that meagre salary, it's a tad hypocritical and spells a little bit of a lack of research & naivety in my opinion. But I suppose that is a slightly different issue, the company is alot larger than the sponsored cadets so we need to move forward.
I can see what you are saying and I share your views to a point. You have alot of new sponsored cadets who signed up to the various Flybe schemes knowing full well what the costs involved were, and what the salary was (£1700 take home) before they signed on the dotted line. You cannot have it both ways, sign up to it knowing what it is then whinge your tits off that you cannot pay back your loans on that meagre salary, it's a tad hypocritical and spells a little bit of a lack of research & naivety in my opinion. But I suppose that is a slightly different issue, the company is alot larger than the sponsored cadets so we need to move forward.
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There are plenty FOs around that started on a scheme, did the sums and decided they could make ends meet on the megre salary. It wouldn't be easy, but possible. During training BALPA successfully negotiated a £7000 pay cut for them. The results of the fiscal calculations suddenly look a lot worse, then it takes three years to get back to what was the starting salary.
In the latest offer the company offering a 12 month payment holiday for sponsored FOs is just an admission that they aren't paid enough. It is just storing up trouble for the future to take it in my opinion.
In the latest offer the company offering a 12 month payment holiday for sponsored FOs is just an admission that they aren't paid enough. It is just storing up trouble for the future to take it in my opinion.
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A £7000 pay cut? Really?
Last deal I remember was a starting salary of £26800 reducing to £23000 for new joiner FOs. Even with my limited maths, that is not £7K.
Clearly it is not only the managers who are top notch BS artists.
Last deal I remember was a starting salary of £26800 reducing to £23000 for new joiner FOs. Even with my limited maths, that is not £7K.
Clearly it is not only the managers who are top notch BS artists.
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OK sorry if I got my numbers wrong. My mistake, it was a really good pay cut as it was only the best part of £4000. A trifling amount.
It seems our management aren't the only ones who can focus on the petty and miss the point.
It seems our management aren't the only ones who can focus on the petty and miss the point.
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Starting salary pre-2007 pay deal was £26191 to be precise 
The FOs on that starting rate then got 4%/4%/4% over three years but subsequent new joiners were cut to £23,000.
The FOs on that starting rate then got 4%/4%/4% over three years but subsequent new joiners were cut to £23,000.
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You are in a completely different job to an EZY FO so why should you be paid the same?
. Can you list any differences between the roles, responsibilities, stress levels and knackerdness of a Flybe FO and an EZY - or any other operator for that matter - FO? The same goes for the skippers. We ALL deserve to be paid to going rate for our job, which is a bloody good one and a bloody hard one.This delay is intolerable. We were told clearly there was no more negotiation to be had. Why are we not being ballotted for ACAS or the next ultimate step NOW?
Iver - who knows, it's managements other big game, guess where the plane stops!!
That's not mentioning the arguments starting over jets in GLA being crewed from MAN and EDI from BHX etc etc....
Frankly if they don't get pay sorted there won't be enough people left to fly them.
Waiting for Easyjet and BA non rated recruitment to start. Everyone I've spoken to, bar those in the regions of INV, IOM etc are waiting for the starting pistol.
That's not mentioning the arguments starting over jets in GLA being crewed from MAN and EDI from BHX etc etc....
Frankly if they don't get pay sorted there won't be enough people left to fly them.
Waiting for Easyjet and BA non rated recruitment to start. Everyone I've spoken to, bar those in the regions of INV, IOM etc are waiting for the starting pistol.
Last edited by Serenity; 30th Mar 2011 at 19:03.
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You better be sorry, wind your neck in chopper, the bidding system is transparent, those council members would have got their e-jet positions based on seniority. I know exactly how long at least one of them has been in the company and he easily qualified on his date of joining. Now grow up 