Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?
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I can't see things changing anytime soon.
I can see things changing very soon.
Remember when Piper said "We've shown we can give airplanes away, now let's see if we can sell some".
Well FR are in the same position with seats just now.
You could say "Everyone else has kept us in business (with cheap aircraft, crew, fuel, Euro subsidies here, harsh contract negotiations there), now let's see if we can stay profitable on our own merits".
"Employees" suddenly have a choice. And if seat prices go up by 20 euros, as they will have to, so will customers.
There is no brand loyalty here, and airport operators, regulators, millions of punters, and thousands of staff have a knife ready.
FR is a modern phenomenon, like McDonalds, if they can re-invent themselves quickly enough they might ride it out. It's up to you whether to hope they manage it.
Remember when Piper said "We've shown we can give airplanes away, now let's see if we can sell some".
Well FR are in the same position with seats just now.
You could say "Everyone else has kept us in business (with cheap aircraft, crew, fuel, Euro subsidies here, harsh contract negotiations there), now let's see if we can stay profitable on our own merits".
"Employees" suddenly have a choice. And if seat prices go up by 20 euros, as they will have to, so will customers.
There is no brand loyalty here, and airport operators, regulators, millions of punters, and thousands of staff have a knife ready.
FR is a modern phenomenon, like McDonalds, if they can re-invent themselves quickly enough they might ride it out. It's up to you whether to hope they manage it.
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They are very very shrewd at screwing their crews and customers,
Would I want to work for them? Under their current Ts and Cs? Not really. With a proper contract and decent Ts and Cs. You bet.
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MOL he has a plan alright
He is grounding planes (80+) this winter
sorry guys typo, should read 80
fat fingers on smartphone !
latest talk going around a continental base and
that seems in line with numbers we heard earlier in the year
He is grounding planes (80+) this winter
sorry guys typo, should read 80
fat fingers on smartphone !
latest talk going around a continental base and
that seems in line with numbers we heard earlier in the year
Last edited by HighLow; 5th Sep 2011 at 21:04.
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HighLow,
Whats your source for 90+ aircraft being grounded this winter?
Edit: Has anything else been said since May this year?
Whats your source for 90+ aircraft being grounded this winter?
Edit: Has anything else been said since May this year?
Last edited by G-FATTY; 5th Sep 2011 at 19:07.
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Sadly, Wayupthere may be closer to the truth than many may think.
I have no idea about the number or nature of our ( RYR ) incidents as I can't get hold of the data. And RYR somehow manage to hush things up. How many of you heard about the double engine failure at CIA, or the aircraft going off the runway at LIG for example ?
All I know is this ;
The main reasons that Ryanair don't have more accidents or incidents is, I believe, that the aircraft are new and rarely breakdown in a major way and they have autopliots fitted.
Having flown six sector days in a Fokker Friendship with no autopilot I know how your scan falls apart as you get more and more tired.
On many, many occasions whilst flying our 738s the autopilot has saved the day. I've had or known others who have had the following because they were tired ( called pilot error by management ) and/or flying into 'iffy airfields ' with few facilities;
Several near misses, good handful of runway vacations not using a taxiway, level busts due to mis-setting the MCP/mis-hearing ATC, forgetting to change freq because both of you are nodding off and not listening ( I know we've had quite a few expensive intercepts ), many loadsheet mistakes, many items missed on a hurried walkround ( big hole in rear fuseluge is the latest thing to be missed as per RYR memo a few days ago ), hard landings requiring company memos due to the ' large number of ', threats to fine pilots for wandering of the SIDs at MAD, concern by the training department over how sleepy crews ' handled ' CAT events, cabin crew reporting experiencing very rough turbulence possibly as sleepy crews can't think ahead i.r.o. wx, etc.,etc.,etc..
We've had memos about all these things and more.
We all know how we feel at the end of a sim check during an unsociable hour, like we just managed to stumble through it, and thank God the TRE didn't add anything else in requiring more than half a dozen steps in a straight forward checklist.
I have no idea about the number or nature of our ( RYR ) incidents as I can't get hold of the data. And RYR somehow manage to hush things up. How many of you heard about the double engine failure at CIA, or the aircraft going off the runway at LIG for example ?
All I know is this ;
The main reasons that Ryanair don't have more accidents or incidents is, I believe, that the aircraft are new and rarely breakdown in a major way and they have autopliots fitted.
Having flown six sector days in a Fokker Friendship with no autopilot I know how your scan falls apart as you get more and more tired.
On many, many occasions whilst flying our 738s the autopilot has saved the day. I've had or known others who have had the following because they were tired ( called pilot error by management ) and/or flying into 'iffy airfields ' with few facilities;
Several near misses, good handful of runway vacations not using a taxiway, level busts due to mis-setting the MCP/mis-hearing ATC, forgetting to change freq because both of you are nodding off and not listening ( I know we've had quite a few expensive intercepts ), many loadsheet mistakes, many items missed on a hurried walkround ( big hole in rear fuseluge is the latest thing to be missed as per RYR memo a few days ago ), hard landings requiring company memos due to the ' large number of ', threats to fine pilots for wandering of the SIDs at MAD, concern by the training department over how sleepy crews ' handled ' CAT events, cabin crew reporting experiencing very rough turbulence possibly as sleepy crews can't think ahead i.r.o. wx, etc.,etc.,etc..
We've had memos about all these things and more.
We all know how we feel at the end of a sim check during an unsociable hour, like we just managed to stumble through it, and thank God the TRE didn't add anything else in requiring more than half a dozen steps in a straight forward checklist.
Playing devil's advocate on this one:
Double engine failure at CIA and aircraft going off the runways? It was widely reported in the press. I don't think the media miss a trick with FR.
Near misses? Hard landing memos? I haven't seen the reports or memos. People missing holes in the fusilage? I saw the pics - sheer incompetence by the flightcrew.
If flightcrew were based near their homes we would not have any fatigue issues because the roster patterns are good. Try the rosters at most other airlines! They have unstable rosters! We do more hours but sitting in the cockpit is not the draining part. I've done 500 hours since April 1st and if I'm tired it's because of commuting, not flying.
If FR have an accident in the near future - God forbid - it'll be something caused by inexperience on the flightdeck, rushing during a turnaround or inappropriate reliance on SOPs over airmanship.
Haven't we got more pressing issues than fatigue to be mad about in FR? Or put it another way: Would fatigue be an issue if pilots were otherwise happy with their jobs?
Double engine failure at CIA and aircraft going off the runways? It was widely reported in the press. I don't think the media miss a trick with FR.
Near misses? Hard landing memos? I haven't seen the reports or memos. People missing holes in the fusilage? I saw the pics - sheer incompetence by the flightcrew.
If flightcrew were based near their homes we would not have any fatigue issues because the roster patterns are good. Try the rosters at most other airlines! They have unstable rosters! We do more hours but sitting in the cockpit is not the draining part. I've done 500 hours since April 1st and if I'm tired it's because of commuting, not flying.
If FR have an accident in the near future - God forbid - it'll be something caused by inexperience on the flightdeck, rushing during a turnaround or inappropriate reliance on SOPs over airmanship.
Haven't we got more pressing issues than fatigue to be mad about in FR? Or put it another way: Would fatigue be an issue if pilots were otherwise happy with their jobs?
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While I totally disagree with how RYR management are treating their workforce, particularly lately, I still do believe it could be a great company to work for, if only a few changes are implemented.
The safety issues raised by some here might be true to some extend but please let me ask you, do you really believe this is only happening to and in RYR?
Let's just look at AF, European major with their crews most likely enjoying one of the best Ts and Cs in the industry. Yet, they happen to fly into trees (Mulheim-Habsheim), overshoot a RWY (Toronto), even a hull loss of one of the most spectacular aircraft ever build (Paris). And according to Wikipedia a whole lot more. I am absolutely certain this does happen every day in every airline. In some more, in some less.
I might be wrong but the equation is simple: big fleet with frequent aircraft movement = greater risk of incidents/accidents.
I stand to be corrected.
The safety issues raised by some here might be true to some extend but please let me ask you, do you really believe this is only happening to and in RYR?
Let's just look at AF, European major with their crews most likely enjoying one of the best Ts and Cs in the industry. Yet, they happen to fly into trees (Mulheim-Habsheim), overshoot a RWY (Toronto), even a hull loss of one of the most spectacular aircraft ever build (Paris). And according to Wikipedia a whole lot more. I am absolutely certain this does happen every day in every airline. In some more, in some less.
I might be wrong but the equation is simple: big fleet with frequent aircraft movement = greater risk of incidents/accidents.
I stand to be corrected.
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I for one agree with a few of the items posted on this thread. It does however give me the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that certain individuals now believe that management policy within FR is now lining the airline up for a major incident or even a hull loss. There seems to be an assumption that it is this which would cause management to relax the reigns on the way that we operate. Whilst I agree, safety issues are a life case in every airline; and indeed as Piloto2011 suggests, some more than others - ie AF,AA,THY,Korean etc. I do unfortunately think that a major incident within FR could potentially ruin the airline. The media treats FR like no other. Much in the same way as the News of the World pushed the boat out on a bit of scandal involving a celebrity or some Premiership footballer - to the point that the objective was to ruin that person. FR would be no different. it is the airline that everyone loves to hate. I wonder why?
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Sorry MIKEHOTEL152 but did you see the several airprox reports I filed, and the couple a colleague filed two weeks ago, oh and the three that another of our captains put in ? No ? Well they are all in a file next to each RYR wall in each base, aren't they ? Cleaners must have moved them I guess.
OK MH152, I apologize for the sarcasm but we really are all in this together and I am only interested in safety.
Some years ago we took a young air traffic controller on the jumpseat of our F27 flying Humberside to STN. He had never been on a jumpseat before. He was astonished that he couldn't see any of the traffic that his chums in the tower were reporting to us, even through it was a crystal clear day and we heading away from the sun. We were astonished that he was astonished. He said that it was virtually impossible to see light aircraft below the horizon and we were surprised that he didn't know this.
The following RYR destinations/bases have no radar and/or require transit through uncontrolled airspace. How good is our lookout really ? Next time you operate into one of these airfields, watch your colleague carefully. Is he really looking out or just staring at the instruments. Remember a proper lookout requires moving the head not just looking forward.
ACE,AHO, AJA,ALC,AOC,BES,BIA, BLK,BOH,BRE,BVA,CCF,CFU,CHQ,CQM,CRL,CRM,CSO,CTA,DNR,DOL,EBU, EGC,EXT,FDH,FEZ,FMM,FSC,FUE,GRO,GRX,GRZ,HER,HUY,IBZ,ILD,INV, KGS,KLU,LCA,LCJ,LDE,LDY,LGG,LIG,LIL,LNZ, LPA,LRH,MBX,MJV,NDR,NQY,NRN,OUD,PDV,PFO,PGF,PIS,PUF,RAK,RDZ, REU,RHO,RJK,RYG,SUF,SVQ,SXB,SZG,TFN,TFS,TNG,TUF,VIE,VIT,VLC, VLL,VOL,XCR,ZQW
Remember guys all we need is one collision and the media vultures will be all over us. MOL and his cronies will still come out of it smelling of roses because their backs are covered ( pilot's fault ) and they are already filthy rich.
The memo about hard landings was from RC dated 22 December 2006.
If any pilot isn't shattered after a week of earlies, may I have some of your DNA. I think I got issued with a duff batch.
OK MH152, I apologize for the sarcasm but we really are all in this together and I am only interested in safety.
Some years ago we took a young air traffic controller on the jumpseat of our F27 flying Humberside to STN. He had never been on a jumpseat before. He was astonished that he couldn't see any of the traffic that his chums in the tower were reporting to us, even through it was a crystal clear day and we heading away from the sun. We were astonished that he was astonished. He said that it was virtually impossible to see light aircraft below the horizon and we were surprised that he didn't know this.
The following RYR destinations/bases have no radar and/or require transit through uncontrolled airspace. How good is our lookout really ? Next time you operate into one of these airfields, watch your colleague carefully. Is he really looking out or just staring at the instruments. Remember a proper lookout requires moving the head not just looking forward.
ACE,AHO, AJA,ALC,AOC,BES,BIA, BLK,BOH,BRE,BVA,CCF,CFU,CHQ,CQM,CRL,CRM,CSO,CTA,DNR,DOL,EBU, EGC,EXT,FDH,FEZ,FMM,FSC,FUE,GRO,GRX,GRZ,HER,HUY,IBZ,ILD,INV, KGS,KLU,LCA,LCJ,LDE,LDY,LGG,LIG,LIL,LNZ, LPA,LRH,MBX,MJV,NDR,NQY,NRN,OUD,PDV,PFO,PGF,PIS,PUF,RAK,RDZ, REU,RHO,RJK,RYG,SUF,SVQ,SXB,SZG,TFN,TFS,TNG,TUF,VIE,VIT,VLC, VLL,VOL,XCR,ZQW
Remember guys all we need is one collision and the media vultures will be all over us. MOL and his cronies will still come out of it smelling of roses because their backs are covered ( pilot's fault ) and they are already filthy rich.
The memo about hard landings was from RC dated 22 December 2006.
If any pilot isn't shattered after a week of earlies, may I have some of your DNA. I think I got issued with a duff batch.
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I still do believe it could be a great company to work for, if only a few changes are implemented.
Don't dream, Ryanair will never ever change because its business model is based on all that ****.
And do not blame MOL, as he is actually a great asset for Ryanair. This man is a real genius. When he is replace, he'll be replaced by someone like him (an accountant that hates pilots) but the only question is: Will this new guy be as clever as MOL? No, he won't
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Out of interest to those in the know is it likely that Ryan like Easyjet who currently have an experience gap building and are having to recruit TR SFO's.
With SFO / Capt's leaving Ryan for other opportunities and from reading some of the posts on here who can blame them!!!
It sounds like changes are afoot etc.....just interesting to see if Ryan will end up in a similar postion and be forced to do something about it and have to improve T&C's and have to recruit experienced FO's?
cheers
With SFO / Capt's leaving Ryan for other opportunities and from reading some of the posts on here who can blame them!!!
It sounds like changes are afoot etc.....just interesting to see if Ryan will end up in a similar postion and be forced to do something about it and have to improve T&C's and have to recruit experienced FO's?
cheers
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If any airlines go bust and dump a few type rated guys on the Market it will solve their problems and ruin our drive for better ts and cs.
Even if they are openly saying they won't take SFO I'm sure they will to fill the gaps.
Even if they are openly saying they won't take SFO I'm sure they will to fill the gaps.
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We do more hours but sitting in the cockpit is not the draining part. I've done 500 hours since April 1st and if I'm tired it's because of commuting, not flying.
TIREDNESS is an issue! Even with no commuting! And tiredness is a cause of incident, not only the ones you stated.
Haven't we got more pressing issues than fatigue to be mad about in FR?
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45 min to print off and check the flightplan and weather report is more than enough, donīt you think? No much time for coffee and some nice and easy chat with the air hostesses in the crew room though.
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Dear Vexed,
I am not in Ryanair, because I am too experienced to join as a 200hours cadet
plus, I donīt want to be treated like s
in this lowlowlowlow cost airline.
I am not in Ryanair, because I am too experienced to join as a 200hours cadet
plus, I donīt want to be treated like s
in this lowlowlowlow cost airline.
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Trouble with fatigue is that hardly any of us report it, mainly because companies like RYR would probably fire the first to use the ' F ' word in any report. But then, of course, regulators and politicians will rightly claim that no fatigue problem is reported to exist.
It stinks, working in RYR is like living in North Korea. I'm surprised we don't have pictures of MOL everywhere in front of which we have to grovel and worship ' His Holiness the Saviour of all aeros*xuals ' !
We MUST find a way to report all fatigue.
The unions must set up reporting systems that we can trust.
Even CHIRP seems powerless to upset the course of the MOL supertanker ! Probably because they have few fatigue reports either.
It stinks, working in RYR is like living in North Korea. I'm surprised we don't have pictures of MOL everywhere in front of which we have to grovel and worship ' His Holiness the Saviour of all aeros*xuals ' !
We MUST find a way to report all fatigue.
The unions must set up reporting systems that we can trust.
Even CHIRP seems powerless to upset the course of the MOL supertanker ! Probably because they have few fatigue reports either.