P2F Cancer of Aviation (merged)/ petitions.
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Yep this is really going to fix it... not. Do you seriously think the government is going to instruct the airlines in how to conduct their business? Nnnnnoooo... not really.
Anyway I signed it... FWIW...
Anyway I signed it... FWIW...
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I noted earlier on someone asked for other incidents attributed/partially attributed to P2F schemes.
Here's one;
http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/tempfiles/20...65521moptc.pdf
Here's one;
http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/tempfiles/20...65521moptc.pdf
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I noted earlier on someone asked for other incidents attributed/partially attributed to P2F schemes.
Here's one;
Here's one;
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I honestly don't know if they still use it, but at the time it was a CTC-scheme which I always thought was some sort of P2F deal. I was only there for a limited time and never actually looked in to it in great detail but I know for a fact that the trainers, especially on the FBW-fleet weren't too impressed with the extra workload generated by this scheme. And it ended up costing the carrier big time with one of the A321's in the shop for some 8 weeks.
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Apologies if this has already been raised since I haven't read through all 5 pages of this thread.
Pay to fly and all its insidious variants is one of the consequences of the deregulation of markets generally and the airline market in particular, compounded by the current government's enthusiasm for never-ending expansion of air transport. Ryanair is now so big that it has massive market power. It can bully airports into paying them to bring services in. It can bully aircraft manufacturers into selling aircraft at prices way below what others pay. It can dominate the pilot recruitment market. And it can set the terms for the rest of the airline market. The BA cabin crew dispute is one of many consequences of the power of the lo-cos.
I applaud the efforts of all of you who are engaging No.10, BALPA etc to try to stop the "cancer of P2F". But what's also required is a wider view - do we want a society where these kinds of employment terms and conditions spread to more and more sectors of the economy? I do hope all of you who are concerned about this will think this through when considering who to vote for at the coming election.
NS
Pay to fly and all its insidious variants is one of the consequences of the deregulation of markets generally and the airline market in particular, compounded by the current government's enthusiasm for never-ending expansion of air transport. Ryanair is now so big that it has massive market power. It can bully airports into paying them to bring services in. It can bully aircraft manufacturers into selling aircraft at prices way below what others pay. It can dominate the pilot recruitment market. And it can set the terms for the rest of the airline market. The BA cabin crew dispute is one of many consequences of the power of the lo-cos.
I applaud the efforts of all of you who are engaging No.10, BALPA etc to try to stop the "cancer of P2F". But what's also required is a wider view - do we want a society where these kinds of employment terms and conditions spread to more and more sectors of the economy? I do hope all of you who are concerned about this will think this through when considering who to vote for at the coming election.
NS
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found this on facebook
Petition to number 10 to stop pay to fly. Yes, i know, before this starts a debate. sign it or dont.
Petition to: stop airlines receiving payment from pilots in return for flying. | Number10.gov.uk
Petition to: stop airlines receiving payment from pilots in return for flying. | Number10.gov.uk
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When you boil the issue down it is an economic problem. Airlines do not really want to set up any more training than is necessary, it diverts focus from the main objective, flying airplanes for profit.
The fact of the matter is that economics drives the airline industry. In the cut-throat competition, the customer has become accustomed to fares that are very much cheaper, relative to incomes, than they were in the 1960s. Probably about 1/10th what they used to be.
This undoubtedly led to massive increases in air travel, and the unwashed masses began to travel in great numbers. This increased airline jobs, aircraft sales etc, etc,
But it came at a price, instability. Air travel has become very dependent on the disposable income of the masses. Boom and recession govern this.
When empty aircraft fly around, or sit on the ground, panic sets in, and down go the fares again. The masses become used to fire-sale fares, and refuse (or are unable) to pay the real fares needed to keep "proper"
airlines alive.
There are not many cost inputs that airlines can control, except employee costs. So the employees are being asked to fund ever cheaper fares, so that their employers can afford to compete with the bottom feeders. This drives T&Cs down and leads to all manner of P2F type schemes.
Fix the basic economics and the P2F schemes are just unnecessary hassles.
Problem is, the free market will eventually drive costs (=T&Cs) down to where professional flying will end up going to the lowest bidders. The insurance industry will determine what the acceptable level of risk will be. Sad but true.
The fact of the matter is that economics drives the airline industry. In the cut-throat competition, the customer has become accustomed to fares that are very much cheaper, relative to incomes, than they were in the 1960s. Probably about 1/10th what they used to be.
This undoubtedly led to massive increases in air travel, and the unwashed masses began to travel in great numbers. This increased airline jobs, aircraft sales etc, etc,
But it came at a price, instability. Air travel has become very dependent on the disposable income of the masses. Boom and recession govern this.
When empty aircraft fly around, or sit on the ground, panic sets in, and down go the fares again. The masses become used to fire-sale fares, and refuse (or are unable) to pay the real fares needed to keep "proper"
airlines alive.There are not many cost inputs that airlines can control, except employee costs. So the employees are being asked to fund ever cheaper fares, so that their employers can afford to compete with the bottom feeders. This drives T&Cs down and leads to all manner of P2F type schemes.
Fix the basic economics and the P2F schemes are just unnecessary hassles.
Problem is, the free market will eventually drive costs (=T&Cs) down to where professional flying will end up going to the lowest bidders. The insurance industry will determine what the acceptable level of risk will be. Sad but true.
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CTC have never offered any pay to fly schemes
When do I start earning a salary? How much will that be?
Once you have successfully completed your Foundation, Basic and Intermediate Training, the next stage is to complete Advanced Training which may be sponsored by an airline. This comprises ground and simulator training, followed by base training (when you will fly an airliner for the first time). Next you will commence flying with the airline on the line, completing your line training and a period of line experience. The terms of your placement will vary from airline to airline and depending on the current requirement. Normally you will first complete an 8 month line training and experience period during which you will normally be paid a subsistence allowance from CTC of about £1000p.m. It will only be on completion of that period, when you have proved to the airline that you are 'the right stuff' and that you have reached all the proficiency levels required, that you may be offered full time..............
Once you have successfully completed your Foundation, Basic and Intermediate Training, the next stage is to complete Advanced Training which may be sponsored by an airline. This comprises ground and simulator training, followed by base training (when you will fly an airliner for the first time). Next you will commence flying with the airline on the line, completing your line training and a period of line experience. The terms of your placement will vary from airline to airline and depending on the current requirement. Normally you will first complete an 8 month line training and experience period during which you will normally be paid a subsistence allowance from CTC of about £1000p.m. It will only be on completion of that period, when you have proved to the airline that you are 'the right stuff' and that you have reached all the proficiency levels required, that you may be offered full time..............
but probably not because we have another muppet with £50k to burn to replace you
In the mean time all costs of training so far will be paid for by the candidate. And the really clever part........ they are paying you back £1,000 a month which is part of the money you have given them for the training costs in the first place allegedly.
There used to be a company in the USA which fortunately is now no longer. They used to offer an ab initio CPL/IR for $19,990. They used to advertise "guaranteed employment as a flight instructor Program" for $38,000. When you looked at their other courses, the CFI, CFII and MEI courses totalled $5,000 with $1,000 in exam fees. They then paid a salary of $1,000 per month for approximately 12 months. They used to take all your money from you upfront and then pay it back as a salary for being a flight instructor, unless they went bust first then you got cock all back!!!
Striking similarities........ but then again, it might only be pure coincidence and it might be that P2F doesnt really exist
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Hi all,
I think the petition is a great idea - would it be worth forwarding it to friends and family as well, explaining the flight safety issue? After all they are the fare paying public who are being exposed to this when they buy a ticket!
Shall we get some decent momentum behind this for a change instead of burying out heads in the sand and harping on about how lucky we are to be employed?!
I agree the market has changed and I am all for low cost travel, but in my opinion these schemes are a step too far.
As a side point please don't forget that unions such as BALPA are only as good as the members in them - if things are to change drastically then members must be prepared to act drastically. The main problem here is that nobody wants the temporary pain for a long term gain. Typical UK short-termist attitude - which is exactly the attitude that has lead us to this point by airline management and the people paying to fly a shiny jet
. Nothing will change if we don't get off our a$$es and dig our heels in. It is never too late to start!
Regards
KD
I think the petition is a great idea - would it be worth forwarding it to friends and family as well, explaining the flight safety issue? After all they are the fare paying public who are being exposed to this when they buy a ticket!
Shall we get some decent momentum behind this for a change instead of burying out heads in the sand and harping on about how lucky we are to be employed?!
I agree the market has changed and I am all for low cost travel, but in my opinion these schemes are a step too far. As a side point please don't forget that unions such as BALPA are only as good as the members in them - if things are to change drastically then members must be prepared to act drastically. The main problem here is that nobody wants the temporary pain for a long term gain. Typical UK short-termist attitude - which is exactly the attitude that has lead us to this point by airline management and the people paying to fly a shiny jet
. Nothing will change if we don't get off our a$$es and dig our heels in. It is never too late to start!Regards
KD
Signed
Petition to: stop airlines receiving payment from pilots in return for flying. | Number10.gov.uk
Gonna stick a link on my facebook, that's always good for spreading things like wild fire, which is what this petition needs......
Petition to: stop airlines receiving payment from pilots in return for flying. | Number10.gov.uk
Gonna stick a link on my facebook, that's always good for spreading things like wild fire, which is what this petition needs......
Signed.
Just a possibly silly question which I can't answer myself from the thread: In a P2F scheme which buys a TR and 300? hours, are all the 300? line hours flown as training with a LTC or is the guy released to the line after a predetermined number of sectors and final line ck?
Just a possibly silly question which I can't answer myself from the thread: In a P2F scheme which buys a TR and 300? hours, are all the 300? line hours flown as training with a LTC or is the guy released to the line after a predetermined number of sectors and final line ck?
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The petition to stop Pay-to-fly 'schemes'...
Some of you may not know about this petition so i thought it would be a good idea to post a link on a devoted thread to the subject. Perhaps if enough of us sign the official petition below the government might act to stop this exploitation of pilots!
Petition to: stop airlines receiving payment from pilots in return for flying. | Number10.gov.uk
Petition to: stop airlines receiving payment from pilots in return for flying. | Number10.gov.uk
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Whilst I agree the pay to fly schemes (started in the main, by European LCC's) are a cancer in our midst I think it is wrong to try and have this stopped.
Where do you draw the line? At paying for your license? paying to hour you hours? I/R? What about a person working for low wages, albeit at or above the legal minimum, are you going to petition against that?
There is snobbery in the aviation world at least in the UK, where a self sponsored person, is viewed the same as a pedophile in a school yard, by individuals who were sponsored by BA, for E.G.
I will not sign this petition as I think if there was a ban put in place, that is just another rule for the office walla's to police. For goodness sake, haven't we got enough rules and regulations without another. This is a "free" society, is it not? Those of you that say it is, then let's try and keep it free. Maybe you guys want a total nanny state.
Where do you draw the line? At paying for your license? paying to hour you hours? I/R? What about a person working for low wages, albeit at or above the legal minimum, are you going to petition against that?
There is snobbery in the aviation world at least in the UK, where a self sponsored person, is viewed the same as a pedophile in a school yard, by individuals who were sponsored by BA, for E.G.
I will not sign this petition as I think if there was a ban put in place, that is just another rule for the office walla's to police. For goodness sake, haven't we got enough rules and regulations without another. This is a "free" society, is it not? Those of you that say it is, then let's try and keep it free. Maybe you guys want a total nanny state.