P2F Cancer of Aviation (merged)/ petitions.
 

What is up with this trend in the industry. Every other advertisement on PPRUNE and or Flight, is about P2F?

I hope this is not the legacy those of us retiring are leaving behind us. Then again it seems that it is the 40 somethings who are managing most Flight Ops posts around the industry (Bonus Culture)?

Wake up and fight back.... It is not worth it. It is the new cancer of aviation

Should PPRUNE ban Pay to Fly adverts?

It might be the case these advertisements allow PPRuNe to function in the black. However if it may operate with the income purely from the recruitment agencies, headset manufacturers and James Bond gadgets.

This site does have hosting costs and other overheads after all.

Publishing organisations have slightly less scruples and I can't see them stopping them.

I would hope as this site was founded by pilots and generally moderated by them that its something going forward they would at least consider.

Advertising on here gives them a degree of credibility (I use the term loosely) despite the overwhelming objection to the practice on the threads.

However, you then move into the "why not, they'd just spend their money elsewhere, so why not take their money" debate. I also doubt they would cease their slimey trade due to lack of advertising on PPRuNe.

I wonder how long the government is going to accept these schemes.

they are just killing the market.

Wanabes will realize very soon that there is no future in this market.

Pprune should be ashamed!

My concern is not with Pprune, as they rightly accept the money.

My concern is with the airlines and with the pilots. I now see most airlines "needing" the money, and most young pilots "needing" the P2F to move forward. This is my concern and how we stop it.

This seems to be part of a general cultural change in our societies. The 40 something managers "Bonus Culture", and the young pilots impatience to grow up and "Fast Track" their career.

Advertising will stop, only when either the airlines, or the customers stop "needing" the services of the TRTOs.

What we do as a pilot community is what matters...

In addition to the new boys coming into the industry starting their careers with an enormous debt there is another problem. I was made redundant, and it is not inconceivable that I could become tangled in pay to fly scheme to keep my career going despite having been flying commercially for almost 15 years! Don't worry I wouldn't accept such an 'offer' but that might be the thing that scuppers my career as a pilot. It's a ridiculous situation. I resent the prospect of having to pay for another type rating having already paid for one. It's time that aviation invested in itself, and it's people, and it's future, and it's the lack of that which has lead it to where it is today in Britain.

I'm fed up with this. I'm going to write to BALPA and tell them I am going to cancel my membership until such time as they take a serious stance against PTF. If every other member did then I'm sure they'd wake up. Don't get me wrong they've done some good work at my airline but in the context of our plummeting t's and c's due to the PTF lemmings, a phrase involving deckchairs and large Irish-built ocean craft comes to mind.

Obviously asking the airlines nicely to stop it is a waste of time, so how about using some of that BALPA PR budget on a press campaign and lobbying to get the law changed so it is illegal?

Rt Hon Sadiq Khan MP, Minister of State for Transport
[email protected]

Rt Hon Lord Andrew Adonis, Secretary of State for Transport
[email protected]


Aviation Safeguarding Enquiries
[email protected]

Secretary of State for Work and Pensions
[email protected]

six-sixty, I applaud you and your suggestion.

I think everyone should at least threaten to cancel their BALPA membership over the P2F affair

I have sent numerous emails to BALPA about this over the last 12 months. Only 1 reply and it contained the usual nonsense about "yes we are aware and actively seeking ways to....". No you're not! Friggin hell, you can't even be arsed to place a note on your website about it! :ugh:

Further to above
Line Training is on average to a newbe approx 40 sectors, After that they are flying with regular captains who are not licenced to teach / provide training.
So how can it be a training flight.

Mint

Superpilot, good letter, but bmi not flybmi ...

So would people send copies of this letter? If people feel strongly enough about this issue, let's decide to show the addressees that we have very real concerns about this trade.

I'll be more than willing to send this (or a finalised copy of it) if people agree that a mass mailing is what is required to bring this subject to light.

Would people indicate whether they would send on a copy of this letter, or most likely a finalised copy, so we can make it move from a good idea on a forum to the letter that everybody sent to the head of the DofT?

If there is a healthy appetite, then let's elect someone to be the official recipient of any replies etc, and turn this into an actual campaign...it'd be a shame if people only care enough to read the letter and say 'what a good letter'.

I'd be willing to help out, I find it disgraceful that this has become an accepted part of the flying 'industry'.

Lets get it read, guys.

Me too and will be watching for the final draft.

I admire the desire to do something about this dreadful exploitation that most seem to turn a blind eye to but I can't help but have this gut feeling that no MP will give a toss about this.

Firestorm makes a good point. I have also just been made redundant and have many hours on both 737 and A320 with excellent training records yet I was rejected at the application stage earlier this year by Thomas Cook for a summer contract. I have since found myself a summer contract that will just about pay the bills for now but I was told that P2F cadets had been accepted at TCX on the A320. Now this is not a hard done by whinge and it's not personal as I think that we all do what we can to make the grade and get on that ladder. However, I merely tell this as I believe it illustrates perfectly what is happening right in front of our eyes and the threat this presents to all of us (including those shelling vast sums of money out for line training). I'd graciously accept failing at interview but to be rejected at the application stage in favour of a CV that shows 150 hours paid for tells a sorry story of our 'profession'. We turn a blind eye at our peril. Sadly, when even our main union ignores the issue, I cannot see an end to it.

For he record I would happily send one of these letters to do my bit.

count me in too
 

Id be more than happy to send a copy of the letter too.

After being made redundant along with all my colleagues, I found myself being offered a very derisory summer contract or a work the summer and get the winter off for peanuts. Myself and a lot of colleagues have now had to go to the sandpit to receive a decent level of salary while the P2F lot fill the vacuum.

About time the Press made a safety issue on this one and BALPA took a stand to stop it.

:}

Look guys, the only way to stop P2F schemes is to go to the media and expose this situation to the public opinion. If I read in the newspaper that bmi was selecting pilots not by their skills, but by the size of their wallets, probably I would choose another Airline to travel, because probably I would think that security was more in danger with big wallet pilots than with best skilled pilots := If I was the bmi management and realise that I was starting to loose passengers because they refuse to go with P2F pilots, probably I would stop the scheme inside my company := If I was the bmi owner and realise that a P2F scheme was going on inside my company, and that the only purpose of that scheme was to some TRI/TRE/Line Capt earn more money, at the price of the company loosing business, probably I would terminate with it immediately :=

I think the fight needs to go that way.

Yesterday I wrote that I was suspecting that Easyjet was giving priority to P2F pilots from bmi on their flexicrew assessment. Somewhere in Easy web page, there is information regarding Equal Opportunities, and it goes like this:

"Equal Opportunity and Fair Treatment
easyJet is committed to being an equal opportunities employer as we wish to encourage all our employees to make the best use of their skills and experience. Our policy aims to ensure that no job applicant or employee receives less favourable treatment. We will treat staff, potential staff and the public that we serve fairly and with dignity.
Any actions by any of our employees which contravene either the Race Relations Act, the Sex Discrimination Act, the Disability Discrimination Act, the Employment Equality (Sexual Orientation) Regulations or the Employment Equality (Religion and Belief) Regulations will be taken very seriously and will be dealt with under easyJet's disciplinary procedure. Such actions may amount to gross misconduct and result in dismissal."

If I write a letter to Mr. Mike Campbell (People Director) inquiring about the bmi P2F pilots priority issue, and explain to him the negative result that a issue like this can produce to the Easy image, if it goes to the media and public opinion, what do you think he is going to do? :eek:

So any more ideas?

six-sixty,

BALPA's own periodical carried adverts for OAT's First officer Plus program.. full page inside cover placing.

john smith, thanks for the correction.

All, please, I urge you to write in to the above persons.

Well done Superpilot!
 

I have written similar things to the EU

Please post a letter / email the new (since Feb 2010) Vice President of EU Transport Commision Mr Siim Kallas

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