P2F Cancer of Aviation (merged)/ petitions.
I say I work for them because my payslip that arrived yesterday says I will get £3225 in my bank account tomorrow from CTC(ARL), and because my logbook has passed 1000 hours.
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So what was the cartoon all about then EpsilonVaz?
Were you going to contribute to this forum positively or were you just looking for a cheap gag?
Your flippancy might have been funnier in a different forum, instead its probably rubbed a few more pilots up the wrong way....
Were you going to contribute to this forum positively or were you just looking for a cheap gag?
Your flippancy might have been funnier in a different forum, instead its probably rubbed a few more pilots up the wrong way....
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Wow, £3225 this month. Thats good and works out to £38,707.73 annually. But hold on, aren't you employed/contracted for 6 months? In which case its more like £19,353. After tax I guess you're taking home just shy of £2,400, or £600.00 per week. Over 6 months that doesn't really add up to a hill of beans. Good old CTC/EZ - screwing 'wages' down below the national average.
You should show a little more integrity and maturity.
You should show a little more integrity and maturity.
Indeed, Pilot Positive, I do seem to have miscalculated. It was just something I saw online and thought "hehe, let's put it here". However, there is so much misinformation in this thread I seriously doubt it's possible for it to have a positive impact.
I'm contracted for 3 years, the figure I quoted was after tax. Gross was £4520. Take note that this was for a pretty full month. I'm not saying the arrangement is perfect, just stating the facts.
I'm contracted for 3 years, the figure I quoted was after tax. Gross was £4520. Take note that this was for a pretty full month. I'm not saying the arrangement is perfect, just stating the facts.
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Economists would argue 'supply & demand' will correct the situation itself.
Demand is not something we can change. Thousands of desperate wannabes who would do anything to get to the front of a plane.
That leaves the supply side. At the moment it's a relatively easy decision for airlines to squeeze money from the front right seat too. Lower the selection criteria, and increase the 'entrance fee'. I get the impression that the newer aircraft are a lot easier to fly anyways.
Has anyone objectively proven that P2F is a *significant* safety risk? Subjectively we know that CRM is affected - but has it caused a problem that would call for regulators and/passengers to seriously care about this? If it was the case, the media would have been all over it.
At least there are still a significant number of airlines out there that still pay for training. Most of these are not in English speaking countries though, and pilot selection programs are tough. Just like the good old days :-)
Demand is not something we can change. Thousands of desperate wannabes who would do anything to get to the front of a plane.
That leaves the supply side. At the moment it's a relatively easy decision for airlines to squeeze money from the front right seat too. Lower the selection criteria, and increase the 'entrance fee'. I get the impression that the newer aircraft are a lot easier to fly anyways.
Has anyone objectively proven that P2F is a *significant* safety risk? Subjectively we know that CRM is affected - but has it caused a problem that would call for regulators and/passengers to seriously care about this? If it was the case, the media would have been all over it.
At least there are still a significant number of airlines out there that still pay for training. Most of these are not in English speaking countries though, and pilot selection programs are tough. Just like the good old days :-)
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The fact that the media is not aware of that is not the proof that there is no risk in ptf "programs".
It is a fact that if in an airline you train pilots and then dump them and always keep low experienced pilots in the RHS, safety is reduced. You can say it is within limits, but the fact is that you are reducing safety in order to make more money, and not for operational reasons.
If an airline has a sudden expansion, the proportion of trainees will be high, and safety reduced, but this is inevitable. Pilots can't be born experienced. But after a while, those pilots become experienced ones, and then safety is again at is former level.
The safety decrease due to ptf schemes is not inevitable. Actually, it is very easy to eliminate by not doing those programs in the first place.
PTF is clearly a way of making revenue at the expense of safety. It should be illegal, for this reason among others. Well. It is illegal, only nobody has been able or willing to make judges to say so, so far.
It is a fact that if in an airline you train pilots and then dump them and always keep low experienced pilots in the RHS, safety is reduced. You can say it is within limits, but the fact is that you are reducing safety in order to make more money, and not for operational reasons.
If an airline has a sudden expansion, the proportion of trainees will be high, and safety reduced, but this is inevitable. Pilots can't be born experienced. But after a while, those pilots become experienced ones, and then safety is again at is former level.
The safety decrease due to ptf schemes is not inevitable. Actually, it is very easy to eliminate by not doing those programs in the first place.
PTF is clearly a way of making revenue at the expense of safety. It should be illegal, for this reason among others. Well. It is illegal, only nobody has been able or willing to make judges to say so, so far.
The figure I quoted was for a 96 hour month plus pay for standbys and nightstop allowences. Please note that we also accrue approx £5 holiday pay per flying hour which was not included in my figure (as we get paid this when on leave). I am not an SFO, as previously stated I have just passed 1000 hours total time.
Wingo, my entire training, from start to finished cost just under £70k, this is including any cost for acommodation. I did not borrow any money. I have no reason to lie to you folks, my real identity isn't exactly a secret and it's pretty easy for anyone who reads my posts to figure out who I am.
Wingo, my entire training, from start to finished cost just under £70k, this is including any cost for acommodation. I did not borrow any money. I have no reason to lie to you folks, my real identity isn't exactly a secret and it's pretty easy for anyone who reads my posts to figure out who I am.
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I say I work for them because my payslip that arrived yesterday says I will get £3225 in my bank account tomorrow from CTC(ARL), and because my logbook has passed 1000 hours.
if you are lucky you will make 1500h, then bye bye amigo.
in 1 year minimum requirement will be 2000-3000 hours to warm a seat!
I believe the 0 to ATP captain scheme is on his way!
you don't work for CTC, you are a customer for CTC!!!.
who pay your holydays? you are a contractor, not an employee. Don't say to us you work for easyjet. you are not a easyjet employee, not a CTC neither.
you are a customer, a cheap LUCKY customer...just profit with your hours and your little cheques and keep your smile on your face, because in a few months they will replace you with lower pay.
don't forget to pay your tax...
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Here is an idea.
On each airport put an information to passengers who is doing flight and that they need to pay less for a ticket or not to use that company.
Maybe BALPA can do something about it.
On each airport put an information to passengers who is doing flight and that they need to pay less for a ticket or not to use that company.
Maybe BALPA can do something about it.
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Maybe BALPA can do something about it.
Don't hold your breath for that.
Don't hold your breath for that.
They might if you send them this........ and get everyone you know to do the same....... and yes i am the author from pap2f.com
The Chairman
BALPA
278 Bath Road
West Drayton
UB7 0DQ
Dear Sir,
INEXPERIENCED PILOTS PAYING TO FLY AIRLINERS
I’m writing to you because, as a member of the travelling public, I am becoming increasingly concerned at the “profits before safety” culture of the airline industry in this country, which is populated by your membership. Recently, several UK airlines have made many experienced Pilots redundant, yet you have stood back and done nothing about the airlines that are allowing 250 hour Pilots, who have paid to be there, occupy the Right Hand Seat of a commercial airliner during commercial operations; a result of what’s referred to by the industry as Pay to Fly Schemes. There have already been 2 incidents in which UK carriers, who have opted to use Pay to Fly candidates, have sustained damaged aircraft as a result, namely the A321 tail scrape at Faro and the A320 very heavy landing incident at Kos. These schemes should have been halted then and BALPA should have been leading the way. This is clearly an accident waiting to happen.
You are treating the travelling public with contempt by allowing us to be subjected to an erosion of safety culture in the airlines concerned. You are also showing similar contempt to your members that,
A)remain unemployed because you have taken no steps to stop the menace of these schemes, thereby directly contributing to experienced Pilots being out of work, which in turn has allowed the airlines concerned to populate their flight decks with inexperienced “pay to fly trainees”
B)are having their terms and conditions eroded as a result of such practices, which reduces morale. Hardly a great combination for crew compliment, demoralised Captain flying with an inexperienced “pay to fly trainee”
In an obvious attempt to eradicate the safety implications of this very shortsighted policy, due to an accident in the USA in which 50 people were KILLED, the US Senate has stepped in and has raised the bar with regards to the experience levels of Pilots allowed in the Flight Deck of an air carrier. Yet BALPA sits on the side lines, in what is a very obvious snub to its membership, and allows 250 Hour Pilots, who are probably NOT BALPA members, to buy their way into the flight deck, obtain 150 or so hours of “training” and then be dumped in the unemployed queue, with massive personal debt, where they become a “cadet” waiting to whore themselves to various airlines because they themselves have been replaced by another Pay to Fly candidate.
You maybe presiding over one of the biggest erosions of safety culture and employee terms and conditions the aviation Industry has ever known and yet you do nothing. Promoting the concept of, the less experience you have the more likely you are to find a job............. as long as you can pay for it, may be BALPA’s legacy.
I quote from one of your very own news letters, posted on a public forum regarding “pay to fly trainees” where the author even has the temerity to use the word risk but apparently the Union sits there, completely moribund with regards to any action;
“The concern is the financial situation many cadets are in may result in high levels of stress, which could affect their performance………………….. any impairment in their performance puts our passengers and ourselves at increased risk”
Performance is already impaired because there are 5,000 hour pilots sitting on the dole and 250 hour pilots sitting in the Flight Deck. I know of no other industry where this would be countenanced. How far will this go? Will inexperienced Pilots replace experienced Captains? What further reductions in safety will fare-paying passengers be subjected to?
Mr Chairman, I would say in light of the above, you should be working on behalf of the travelling public to mitigate ANY risk we face. By so doing, you will make flying on the airlines that bit safer; you will prevent the degradation of your members Terms and Conditions and you will prevent your future members from incurring up to £80,000 of personal debt with no way of paying it off.
Sincerely
A Concerned Member of the Travelling Public
flyhelico, I'm unsure if you're trying to troll me or you genuinely have some misgivings about the CTC Flexicrew contract. I shall give you the benifit of the doubt of course.
My comment about flying hours was in response to my "puny 500 hours" which you stated will not allow me to find a job elsewhere. I was just stating that you do not fully have knowladge of my situation.
With regards to my flying ability, the details are between me and the Captains/Training Captains at my airline, of which Norman Stanley Fletcher is one. I have recently passed my recurrent LPC/OPC/LOE, take from that what you will, but no doubt you will find a way to turn what I just said into an attack.
It seems you have misunderstood, approx £5 per flying hour is accrued as holiday pay and is paid when on leave. I am an employee of CTC(ARL), I am not self employed. Same goes for all CTC Flexicrew.
I'm not going to get dragged into a childish argument, if anyone has any serious questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
My comment about flying hours was in response to my "puny 500 hours" which you stated will not allow me to find a job elsewhere. I was just stating that you do not fully have knowladge of my situation.
With regards to my flying ability, the details are between me and the Captains/Training Captains at my airline, of which Norman Stanley Fletcher is one. I have recently passed my recurrent LPC/OPC/LOE, take from that what you will, but no doubt you will find a way to turn what I just said into an attack.
It seems you have misunderstood, approx £5 per flying hour is accrued as holiday pay and is paid when on leave. I am an employee of CTC(ARL), I am not self employed. Same goes for all CTC Flexicrew.
I'm not going to get dragged into a childish argument, if anyone has any serious questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
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Global Warrior,
Very good letter and perhaps I can I suggest a slight amendment/addition?
Safety should never be a reactive measure, it should be anticipative and pro-active in nature. Balpa appear not to be the latter and therefore they are working neither in the interest of their paying members or in the public interest generally.
"But there's no problem with safety" Balpa cry! But thats the whole point...why do we need to wait for an accident to happen to prove the inherent erosion of safety? Isnt it a responsibility of the industry to safeguard safety in the first place?
Very good letter and perhaps I can I suggest a slight amendment/addition?
Safety should never be a reactive measure, it should be anticipative and pro-active in nature. Balpa appear not to be the latter and therefore they are working neither in the interest of their paying members or in the public interest generally.
"But there's no problem with safety" Balpa cry! But thats the whole point...why do we need to wait for an accident to happen to prove the inherent erosion of safety? Isnt it a responsibility of the industry to safeguard safety in the first place?
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This volcanic ash must be great for potential P2F people. The loss of revenue the airlines have been subjected to means that they are going to be looking to cut costs again so P2F must be about to really kick off!!!!! J CRUD, get that order in for your new R-8
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If the airlines can sustain the lossess due to the ashes it means that a limited european pilot industrial action should not be out of the question.
It looks as if we were the weak part of this conflict, but in fact we are so much stronger than the airline managers, the industry and the policitians together.
If only we had the balls one day everybody would learn that, and things would improve promptly. But seemingly we prefer the role of defenseless wifes abused by their husbands. Inlcuding some Stockholm syndrome.
It looks as if we were the weak part of this conflict, but in fact we are so much stronger than the airline managers, the industry and the policitians together.
If only we had the balls one day everybody would learn that, and things would improve promptly. But seemingly we prefer the role of defenseless wifes abused by their husbands. Inlcuding some Stockholm syndrome.
{dont think flying}