P2F Cancer of Aviation (merged)/ petitions.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Just to remind for a second time, you don't have to be a pilot or directly affected by P2F to sign the petition, anyone can sign it. My granny and girlfriends are proud card carrying rebels too now.
Anyway its closed until after the election.
Anyway its closed until after the election.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK, Paris, Peckham, New York
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Wow - just sitting here Reading skyport paper and balpa aparently have pay to fly in it's manifesto that it is lobbying to mp's. There is a whole 4 lines on the matter on page 5!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK, Paris, Peckham, New York
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haha in opposition to it!
the wording was (off the top of my head I have binned it now) something along the lines off - we are opposed to the exploitation of newly qualified pilots, whereby some airlines are forcing them to pay up to £34000 to continue their training with an airline.
Was not really clear if they opposed paying for TR or P2F, I am guessing the latter as paying for TR has been going on a while now.
Looks like it could finally be on their radar.
the wording was (off the top of my head I have binned it now) something along the lines off - we are opposed to the exploitation of newly qualified pilots, whereby some airlines are forcing them to pay up to £34000 to continue their training with an airline.
Was not really clear if they opposed paying for TR or P2F, I am guessing the latter as paying for TR has been going on a while now.
Looks like it could finally be on their radar.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
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Do we know how many professional pilots are employed in the UK and what sort of percentage this petition is likely to represent? I'm not talking about pilots " qualified" but those actually working. If we have say 3000 and only 300 sign, could they argue only 10% are against PTF.. just a thought. Looking at the list of names, there are some strange ones, or very cruel parents!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: slightly left of you
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I've read the petition and I've read most of the posts on here about said petition. I am against pay to fly but I cannot sign. It's badly worded (no I'm not bothered about spelling and/or grammar) and it confuses two completely separate issues. Pay to fly is indeed a blight on the industry but you can't tar all low houred pilots with the same brush.
The petition implies all low houred pilots are pay to fly (which obviously they're not) and all low houred pilots need constant babysitting. Yes being a line trainer is hard work with a newbie (and no im not one just a lowly fo) but that's why you're a line trainer.
Everyone on my original course were low houred and all of us (eventually) went as low houred pilots into main airlines. Most were sponsored. However surely your financial abilities have nothing to do with your flying skills.
Yes pay to fly is bad for our industry. But being low houred (or being a p2f'er
for that matter) does not mean you're a bad pilot.
I am against pay to fly but I will not shun someone who's done it.
I am against pay to fly but not low hours pilots flying.
Remove this petition and rewrite one focussing solely on p2f. Confusing the 2 issues will give all airline managers who use p2f a chance to say 'well safety's never been compromised just look at our record etc etc.'
The petition implies all low houred pilots are pay to fly (which obviously they're not) and all low houred pilots need constant babysitting. Yes being a line trainer is hard work with a newbie (and no im not one just a lowly fo) but that's why you're a line trainer.
Everyone on my original course were low houred and all of us (eventually) went as low houred pilots into main airlines. Most were sponsored. However surely your financial abilities have nothing to do with your flying skills.
Yes pay to fly is bad for our industry. But being low houred (or being a p2f'er
for that matter) does not mean you're a bad pilot.
I am against pay to fly but I will not shun someone who's done it.
I am against pay to fly but not low hours pilots flying.
Remove this petition and rewrite one focussing solely on p2f. Confusing the 2 issues will give all airline managers who use p2f a chance to say 'well safety's never been compromised just look at our record etc etc.'
you have summed it up better than any of us native English speakers seem to have managed to do so far.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
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Billiantly exposed 
That is an effect of PTF that has a measurable impact of safety, isn't it?
With such programs, those airlines are effectively reducing the safety of their flights, and they are doing it to make money.
I am absolutely sure that this practice is simply illegal, only it will take good lawyers to stop it. Better that websites.
That is an effect of PTF that has a measurable impact of safety, isn't it?
With such programs, those airlines are effectively reducing the safety of their flights, and they are doing it to make money.
I am absolutely sure that this practice is simply illegal, only it will take good lawyers to stop it. Better that websites.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
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Very well put Studi!
(NSF, did you read Studi's post?)
Spot on, and besides the obvious safety issue of P2F preventing to raise the level of experience in an airline, it also nullifies the value of this experience that a cadet was hoping to climb the career ladder with, as experience excludes one from getting an interview for any real (paying!) job. How ironic!
It's a zero sum game: designed to flood the market with even more pilots in order to drive down T&C's.
The combined impact on safety and T&C's should have the CAA and unions woken up by now, but as usual, the silence is deafening...
(NSF, did you read Studi's post?)
The big safety problem with P2F is, that once you have done your agreed amount of hours and gained your first experience, you are spit out of the system. The airline puts a new guy into the seat, which is zero experienced again.
It's a zero sum game: designed to flood the market with even more pilots in order to drive down T&C's.
The combined impact on safety and T&C's should have the CAA and unions woken up by now, but as usual, the silence is deafening...
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: at the end
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EpsilonVaz...
Cant work out whether you are a critic of P2F or a supporter. I think possibly you are the latter, despite what your comic strip post suggests.
Reading your threads it seems you currently 'work' for ez, but is that as a parc contract FO or as an employee on full benefits and salary?
Cant work out whether you are a critic of P2F or a supporter. I think possibly you are the latter, despite what your comic strip post suggests.
I wouldn't class ATP as the "take your money and hang you out to dry" type TRTO's. They have been open, and helpful to me, and to most of the people I know that have been through their scheme. I am very satisfied with the service ATP provided.
So, to answer a common question:
If I knew what I know now, would I do it again? Yes.
So, to answer a common question:
If I knew what I know now, would I do it again? Yes.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: >>>My profile has been hacked by a stupid 20 yo moderator<<<...somewhere where people don't speak english! don't point at my mistakes unless you are at ICAO level 7.
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you don't work for easy, neither for CTC. you pay them, ... why you say your work for easy.they will kick you out anyway in 2 seasons...
bye bye amigo...nobody will hire you with your little 500hours.
bye bye amigo...nobody will hire you with your little 500hours.