Self Sponsored A320 Type Rating & Line Training - J Curd
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Comments of the type just issued by 747JJ are most unhelpful as they are steeped in woeful ignorance and foolishness. It is simply not accurate or fair to term these pilots as 'p2f muppets'. The impression being given is that these guys are incompetent buffoons who are roaming about in easyJet Airbuses having no idea what they are doing. That is simply not the case.
As we all know, the first casualty of war is truth - nowhere is that more true than in the case of JC. I am not a personal friend of his, but do know him professionally through easyJet. He is not some thief or criminal, and in his role as an easyJet TRE is nothing other than a top bloke. The snag is that he has a sideline as a businessman whereby he has started providing dirt-cheap Airbus pilots to particular companies. The picture is actually quite complex and it may be worth highlighting some of those complexities. I cannot comment on the host of schemes and business associations being discussed earlier - I can comment on the ATP scheme and the subsequent situation at easyJet.
The original JC ATP scheme (as opposed to the CTC ATP scheme which is a completely different animal) was a disaster overall. The biggest single failing was that there was no credible selection process - consequently many of those on the scheme were simply not of the calibre required to be professional airline pilots. They were completely misled and sadly a number either never saw the inside of an Airbus or were so poor in line training that they were never going to be employed again. The ground training was a disgrace in that it was done at the wrong pace to fit in with the personal schedules of the scheme owners and not the students. It was a model of how not to provide training. Most of the sim training was provided in Amsterdam by easyJet TRIs/TREs. Nonetheless, the schedules were not appropriate for the students' needs and given some of their natural lack of aptitude it was very difficult indeed to make it work. The bottom line is that you cannot put in what God left out! I cannot give an exact figure, but only about half of those who started ever finished their 150 hours of line training to an acceptable standard - a pass rate substantially below virtually any other airline scheme I have ever heard of. To top it all off, JC had virtually guaranteed jobs to all the participants and in the end, not a single one of them got a job. In fairness to JC, he believed he had been given jobs galore by various companies. Alas, the credit crunch bit - no one was interested at the exact moment his pilots appeared out of their 150 hours of line training. The easyJet head of training was sufficiently alarmed at the calibre of the candidates that he basically binned the contract and kicked out the people who had difficulty on base training. Hard rules, but it is difficult to argue with either his logic or the integrity of the decision.
However, it should be pointed out that things have moved on. JC has now persuaded BMI to provide line training instead of easyJet. More importantly, he has substantially changed his recruitment criteria and has undoubtedly acquired better candidates than was previously the case. I have personally been involved in the training of some of these people who have come from BMI to easyJet under the Parc Aviation contract pilot scheme. From what I have seen, these are no worse than say the CTC pilots who come through as 200 hour cadets - in some cases they are better. Therefore it is reasonable to say that JC has got his act together and is also being favoured by good luck in that there are now at least contract jobs to offer his customers. It should also be said that there are still court cases looming for JC from disenchanted ex-ATP scheme pilots who feel deceived by what they received in terms of jobs at the end. How that will end I do not know, but that is the current situation.
The final comment that needs to be made is about the accuracy of the jobs claimed. There was a list of 'testimonials' mentioned previously - I know one or two of those quoted in that I have been involved with their training. It needs to be pointed out that to the best of my knowledge not a single permanent job has ever been found for any of JC's pilots. Every single one of those 11 out of 15 pilots quoted are on temporary contracts under either the CTC flexicrew scheme or as Parc Aviation contract pilots from this year's batch. There are, allegedly, going to be a number of permanent jobs on offer at the end of the season at easyJet, but controversy reigns internally as to how the bun fight will be decided. There is talk of a separate recruitment process - that is fraught with potential difficulty. Not surprsingly, CTC are also keen to ensure their own graduates get first dibs and it may yet turn into an unholy scrabble. My own view is that jobs should be allocated on a 'seniority' basis - ie the first permanent jobs go to the pilots who have been contract pilots with easyJet the longest. It does not look as if that is what will happen, but that decision is way outside my pay grade.
Anyway, a bit long-winded but that is the way it is. In summary, JC is a top TRE at easyJet. In my view he is also a good and fair man along with it. His business enterprises with his mate Stelios (not THE Stelios I should say) are altogether a different story. The most recent batch of pilots are, to my mind, as good as any who have appeared through other schemes. In addition, the ATP graduates we still have on temporary contract (less than half of those who started) are good people who now have well in excess of 500 hours on type. However, despite being a number of years into these p2f schemes, not a single one of them that I know of has yet managed to obtain a permanent job. That is my take on it - others may choose to disagree!
As we all know, the first casualty of war is truth - nowhere is that more true than in the case of JC. I am not a personal friend of his, but do know him professionally through easyJet. He is not some thief or criminal, and in his role as an easyJet TRE is nothing other than a top bloke. The snag is that he has a sideline as a businessman whereby he has started providing dirt-cheap Airbus pilots to particular companies. The picture is actually quite complex and it may be worth highlighting some of those complexities. I cannot comment on the host of schemes and business associations being discussed earlier - I can comment on the ATP scheme and the subsequent situation at easyJet.
The original JC ATP scheme (as opposed to the CTC ATP scheme which is a completely different animal) was a disaster overall. The biggest single failing was that there was no credible selection process - consequently many of those on the scheme were simply not of the calibre required to be professional airline pilots. They were completely misled and sadly a number either never saw the inside of an Airbus or were so poor in line training that they were never going to be employed again. The ground training was a disgrace in that it was done at the wrong pace to fit in with the personal schedules of the scheme owners and not the students. It was a model of how not to provide training. Most of the sim training was provided in Amsterdam by easyJet TRIs/TREs. Nonetheless, the schedules were not appropriate for the students' needs and given some of their natural lack of aptitude it was very difficult indeed to make it work. The bottom line is that you cannot put in what God left out! I cannot give an exact figure, but only about half of those who started ever finished their 150 hours of line training to an acceptable standard - a pass rate substantially below virtually any other airline scheme I have ever heard of. To top it all off, JC had virtually guaranteed jobs to all the participants and in the end, not a single one of them got a job. In fairness to JC, he believed he had been given jobs galore by various companies. Alas, the credit crunch bit - no one was interested at the exact moment his pilots appeared out of their 150 hours of line training. The easyJet head of training was sufficiently alarmed at the calibre of the candidates that he basically binned the contract and kicked out the people who had difficulty on base training. Hard rules, but it is difficult to argue with either his logic or the integrity of the decision.
However, it should be pointed out that things have moved on. JC has now persuaded BMI to provide line training instead of easyJet. More importantly, he has substantially changed his recruitment criteria and has undoubtedly acquired better candidates than was previously the case. I have personally been involved in the training of some of these people who have come from BMI to easyJet under the Parc Aviation contract pilot scheme. From what I have seen, these are no worse than say the CTC pilots who come through as 200 hour cadets - in some cases they are better. Therefore it is reasonable to say that JC has got his act together and is also being favoured by good luck in that there are now at least contract jobs to offer his customers. It should also be said that there are still court cases looming for JC from disenchanted ex-ATP scheme pilots who feel deceived by what they received in terms of jobs at the end. How that will end I do not know, but that is the current situation.
The final comment that needs to be made is about the accuracy of the jobs claimed. There was a list of 'testimonials' mentioned previously - I know one or two of those quoted in that I have been involved with their training. It needs to be pointed out that to the best of my knowledge not a single permanent job has ever been found for any of JC's pilots. Every single one of those 11 out of 15 pilots quoted are on temporary contracts under either the CTC flexicrew scheme or as Parc Aviation contract pilots from this year's batch. There are, allegedly, going to be a number of permanent jobs on offer at the end of the season at easyJet, but controversy reigns internally as to how the bun fight will be decided. There is talk of a separate recruitment process - that is fraught with potential difficulty. Not surprsingly, CTC are also keen to ensure their own graduates get first dibs and it may yet turn into an unholy scrabble. My own view is that jobs should be allocated on a 'seniority' basis - ie the first permanent jobs go to the pilots who have been contract pilots with easyJet the longest. It does not look as if that is what will happen, but that decision is way outside my pay grade.
Anyway, a bit long-winded but that is the way it is. In summary, JC is a top TRE at easyJet. In my view he is also a good and fair man along with it. His business enterprises with his mate Stelios (not THE Stelios I should say) are altogether a different story. The most recent batch of pilots are, to my mind, as good as any who have appeared through other schemes. In addition, the ATP graduates we still have on temporary contract (less than half of those who started) are good people who now have well in excess of 500 hours on type. However, despite being a number of years into these p2f schemes, not a single one of them that I know of has yet managed to obtain a permanent job. That is my take on it - others may choose to disagree!
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so buying someone else's job is OK?
BUS_DRIVER 1990
I have many friends with thousands of flight hours in jets who cannot find a job after their airlines went bankrupt of fired them by the hundreds.
With families. With a "lifstyle" they loved.
You, my dear, have bought the job of one of them, who is in deep shi* because he cannot pay the bills. You can't even imagine the desperation he feels and the drama he is in since a few years ago.
I can't myself get a job in EZY, because they don't want pilots who don't pay. This occurs because it is possible for you, my friend, or others, to buy that position.
It seems all of this does not affect your ability to sleep tight every night.
"fast track"... Well, that is an interesting way to put it, indeed.
I have many friends with thousands of flight hours in jets who cannot find a job after their airlines went bankrupt of fired them by the hundreds.
With families. With a "lifstyle" they loved.
You, my dear, have bought the job of one of them, who is in deep shi* because he cannot pay the bills. You can't even imagine the desperation he feels and the drama he is in since a few years ago.
I can't myself get a job in EZY, because they don't want pilots who don't pay. This occurs because it is possible for you, my friend, or others, to buy that position.
It seems all of this does not affect your ability to sleep tight every night.
"fast track"... Well, that is an interesting way to put it, indeed.
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busdriver1990,
you talk crap. no one in the far east hire pilots with 500h. Most guys must have 500h on the bus included 2000h-3000t, and most of the time they ask for 2000h jet.I know the "my friend who didn't pay, now are at home"!!!,
well maybe you friend at home will get a paid job while you still pay back your loan!
I suggest to all of of you instead to look for a P2F scheme, to look for a proper job.
how?
by sending CV to the airline directly. duh!
These guys who sell you P2F, what do you think they do? they call the airlines and say :" do you have jobs for me, I know some pilots!!!"
I bet if you want compete with the P2F, you can simply offer money directly to the airline. You don't need to go through these P2F scheme which are just a bunch of middlemen! why not create your own P2F scheme?
The guys at easyjet , they fly maybe 2 seasons, let's say 6 months ,80h a month during peak season.
They manage to make 500 hours, then some fresh pilot are coming behind and these seasonal pilots are not called back(how is that possible?, I have experience,...!!!).
The market will soon be filled with 500h A320 pilot desperate for a new A320job. Then the P2F middlemen will propose them 500hours on top of that, and a special price of XX'000 euro.
if you want enter this market, you have to pay for CPL, IR,MCC, type rating(maybe 2 ratings), and line training, 500h, another 500h, ...
total 350'000 euro!!!with no job guaranty!
this profession is a joke!
F2P, or P2F (pay to f....)
you talk crap. no one in the far east hire pilots with 500h. Most guys must have 500h on the bus included 2000h-3000t, and most of the time they ask for 2000h jet.I know the "my friend who didn't pay, now are at home"!!!,
well maybe you friend at home will get a paid job while you still pay back your loan!
I suggest to all of of you instead to look for a P2F scheme, to look for a proper job.
how?
by sending CV to the airline directly. duh!
These guys who sell you P2F, what do you think they do? they call the airlines and say :" do you have jobs for me, I know some pilots!!!"
I bet if you want compete with the P2F, you can simply offer money directly to the airline. You don't need to go through these P2F scheme which are just a bunch of middlemen! why not create your own P2F scheme?
The guys at easyjet , they fly maybe 2 seasons, let's say 6 months ,80h a month during peak season.
They manage to make 500 hours, then some fresh pilot are coming behind and these seasonal pilots are not called back(how is that possible?, I have experience,...!!!).
The market will soon be filled with 500h A320 pilot desperate for a new A320job. Then the P2F middlemen will propose them 500hours on top of that, and a special price of XX'000 euro.
if you want enter this market, you have to pay for CPL, IR,MCC, type rating(maybe 2 ratings), and line training, 500h, another 500h, ...
total 350'000 euro!!!with no job guaranty!
this profession is a joke!
F2P, or P2F (pay to f....)
I work for an Asian company and I can tell you that someone with 400 hours total time and a type rating with 150 hours on type will not get a look in. Total hours in the thousands are a requirement and a type rating is not necessary as all the training is done in house. In fact, the quality of the training is taken into account and although there have been no P2F pilots employed, I would suspect that these training schemes would not be highly regarded. However, my company is not employing ex-pats at the moment. The recruitment is being fulfilled by cadet schemes.
I'm sure other Asian companys are the same. (Top tip, don't refer to then as "Far Eastern" - the term means nothing in Asia). There seems to be a misconception on these forums that the standards may be lower and they are desperate for pilots. There is a requirement for pilots and they are hiring ex-pats. But most of these are contracts through agencies for which the P2F pilots won't have enough experience for. And although some Asian companies employ directly, the ex-pats employees tend to have much higher requirement than local pilots, laregly due to the high hours requirements of their national aviation authorities. For example, 2800 hours total time with relevant experience is required to validate a foreign ICAO ATPL into a Hong Kong ATPL.
And the standards tend to be very high.
I'm sure other Asian companys are the same. (Top tip, don't refer to then as "Far Eastern" - the term means nothing in Asia). There seems to be a misconception on these forums that the standards may be lower and they are desperate for pilots. There is a requirement for pilots and they are hiring ex-pats. But most of these are contracts through agencies for which the P2F pilots won't have enough experience for. And although some Asian companies employ directly, the ex-pats employees tend to have much higher requirement than local pilots, laregly due to the high hours requirements of their national aviation authorities. For example, 2800 hours total time with relevant experience is required to validate a foreign ICAO ATPL into a Hong Kong ATPL.
And the standards tend to be very high.
What's the fuss about Bus_Driver1990? He cheated PPRuNe out of advertizing fee and that's about it. Wannabees swallowing his marketing hype, not quite remote from the ones that can be seen on we-sell-anything-TVs, don't have quite the ability of critical reasoning required at PPL level, let alone ATPL.
Thank you, Norman Stanley Fletcher, for superbly illustrating what ancient Romans knew very well: corruptio optimi cuiusque pessima.
Thank you, Norman Stanley Fletcher, for superbly illustrating what ancient Romans knew very well: corruptio optimi cuiusque pessima.
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Norman Stanley Fletcher... Dear chap, why don't you just take a good wiff what you are showeling. Might help you in the long run. Yes some of the guys are incompetent baffoons as you so eloquently put it and have no place in a jet cockpit (I do so prefer the old word to Flight Deck). Mind reading my post again, SOME of these guys are extremely good at their jobs, but frankly they are the minority. There are people flying these days that started in the last few years that would have never got a job 10 years ago and today the only reason some of these people are flying is Pappa's fat wallet or a bank manager who provided a loan against his/hers better knowledge.
Stansdead... Never had manners if it meant being politically correct at the expense of truth or not speaking my mind when needed. I don't kiss a.ss nor do I know how to and certainly don't know how to sugarcoat things. Thats it pretty much in a nutshell.
Alex: The hyde park vacancies are gone and done with, but you can join me on the new Amsterdam Oosterpark paddleboat commander's course. I've applied for that one and I hear that they are looking for another nutter to join
Been a while, hope seeing you when in NL the next time.
Stansdead... Never had manners if it meant being politically correct at the expense of truth or not speaking my mind when needed. I don't kiss a.ss nor do I know how to and certainly don't know how to sugarcoat things. Thats it pretty much in a nutshell.
Alex: The hyde park vacancies are gone and done with, but you can join me on the new Amsterdam Oosterpark paddleboat commander's course. I've applied for that one and I hear that they are looking for another nutter to join
Been a while, hope seeing you when in NL the next time.
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747JJ - no one is more opposed than p2f schemes than me. That, however, is not the issue here. The issue is whether the individuals who are recruited through these schemes and currently working for easyJet are competent to do the job. Unless you are an easyJet Training Captain, which I suspect you are not, then you are simply not qualified to make the assertions you do. You may indeed be a 747 pilot and possibly even a Training Captain on such fine beasts, or you may just be a frozen ATPL wannabee with 35 hours on a light twin - who knows? Whatever the truth of your position, without working for easyJet and being directly exposed to the individuals you are ranting against, your opinion is simply hot air based on supposition and little else. My views are imperfect and only the views of one individual - they are however based on knowledge and experience.
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Want to have a copy of my last LPC and the one's before and my ATPL as well as company ID. No problems sending them to you. Just PM me your Email and you will have them and any other doc you wish in no time at all.
I have not mentioned any particular company in my posts and thus I urge you to read my post again. The P2F problem is not limited to a geographic location nor is it limited to Easyjet. The problem is universal and reflects the abyss commercial aviation is sinking into.
Some younger pilots have the old technology boom syndrome where they want everything now and without working for it. I've recently had a chat with a 1500h tt pilot who is now seriously upset that he has not been selected for a command. With a total of 2 years of commercial flying behind him, I can see that he is rightfully upset and should have been given charge of a commercial aircraft preferably yesterday. This mindset demostrates what is happening in the industry and wht there are companies using the situation to their advantage. One can buy everything, Licence, Rating, Linetraining and thus a position with a low salary. What next: Buying command on an aircraft?
My comments are based on experience while flying on multitide of aircraft types as Captain with people that have built their careers and then with those who have bought theirs. My views are different from yours but nevertheless are based on personal experience and having been involved in the industry through various positions since the 80's. Alas I am no longer flying the 747 Classic, such a pity really as I miss the old lady, a fine aircraft she is.
I have not mentioned any particular company in my posts and thus I urge you to read my post again. The P2F problem is not limited to a geographic location nor is it limited to Easyjet. The problem is universal and reflects the abyss commercial aviation is sinking into.
Some younger pilots have the old technology boom syndrome where they want everything now and without working for it. I've recently had a chat with a 1500h tt pilot who is now seriously upset that he has not been selected for a command. With a total of 2 years of commercial flying behind him, I can see that he is rightfully upset and should have been given charge of a commercial aircraft preferably yesterday. This mindset demostrates what is happening in the industry and wht there are companies using the situation to their advantage. One can buy everything, Licence, Rating, Linetraining and thus a position with a low salary. What next: Buying command on an aircraft?
My comments are based on experience while flying on multitide of aircraft types as Captain with people that have built their careers and then with those who have bought theirs. My views are different from yours but nevertheless are based on personal experience and having been involved in the industry through various positions since the 80's. Alas I am no longer flying the 747 Classic, such a pity really as I miss the old lady, a fine aircraft she is.
Last edited by 747JJ; 29th Mar 2010 at 09:38.
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LOCO Subcontracting
2008 we had Subprime mortgages, 2010 we have LOCO Subcontracting Pilot's for 6 months at a time.
Airline accountants have woken up to the SSTR schemes and see them as normal. The next step had to be P2F, especially now post Stock mkt crash. Why pay employees when P2Fers will happily pay you?
Along with the reduction in flying hours and exams with the advent of JAR regulations (remember when you weren't allowed to sit National ATPLs until you had a CPL with 700hours flying under your belt?) we also have the MeGeneration.
Now everybody has to deal with selfish attitudes whatever our age group but never before has a generation been through the achievement mill spurred on by babyboomer parents.
Dr Twenge has written a book on this generation and cites: "We live in a time when high self-esteem is encouraged from childhood, when young people have more freedom and independence than ever, but also far more depression, anxiety, cynicism, and loneliness. Today's young people have been raised to aim for the stars at a time when it is more difficult than ever to get into college, find a good job, and afford a house. Their expectations are very high just as the world is becoming more competitive, so there's a huge clash between their expectations and reality. More than any other generation in history, the children of Baby Boomers are disappointed by what they find when they arrive at adulthood."
So is it any surprise that they want to go from zero to hero (C152 to A320) in the shortest possible time and at least say they have worked as a jet airline pilot? In the longer term (assuming they get more than 6 months flying) the shortcuts to "success" make life boring. When they wake up and see all they have done for 5 years is program an FMGS and raised a gear lever a few thousand times just to pay off the debt they owe HSBC......
747JJ is spot on. NSF might be against P2F but his arguments could be used by EZY managers and others as justification of the scheme. In their eyes it's all fine unless safety is compromised. CTC actually sold their cadet schemes to Stellios on the promise of Safety. For regular flying they were right. Recent events have shown low houred, underpaid autopilot jockeys who may be well trained in SOPs are not always the backstop needed when things go seriously wrong.
Airline accountants have woken up to the SSTR schemes and see them as normal. The next step had to be P2F, especially now post Stock mkt crash. Why pay employees when P2Fers will happily pay you?
Along with the reduction in flying hours and exams with the advent of JAR regulations (remember when you weren't allowed to sit National ATPLs until you had a CPL with 700hours flying under your belt?) we also have the MeGeneration.
Now everybody has to deal with selfish attitudes whatever our age group but never before has a generation been through the achievement mill spurred on by babyboomer parents.
Dr Twenge has written a book on this generation and cites: "We live in a time when high self-esteem is encouraged from childhood, when young people have more freedom and independence than ever, but also far more depression, anxiety, cynicism, and loneliness. Today's young people have been raised to aim for the stars at a time when it is more difficult than ever to get into college, find a good job, and afford a house. Their expectations are very high just as the world is becoming more competitive, so there's a huge clash between their expectations and reality. More than any other generation in history, the children of Baby Boomers are disappointed by what they find when they arrive at adulthood."
So is it any surprise that they want to go from zero to hero (C152 to A320) in the shortest possible time and at least say they have worked as a jet airline pilot? In the longer term (assuming they get more than 6 months flying) the shortcuts to "success" make life boring. When they wake up and see all they have done for 5 years is program an FMGS and raised a gear lever a few thousand times just to pay off the debt they owe HSBC......
747JJ is spot on. NSF might be against P2F but his arguments could be used by EZY managers and others as justification of the scheme. In their eyes it's all fine unless safety is compromised. CTC actually sold their cadet schemes to Stellios on the promise of Safety. For regular flying they were right. Recent events have shown low houred, underpaid autopilot jockeys who may be well trained in SOPs are not always the backstop needed when things go seriously wrong.
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Great post angelorange - insight is everything.
So is it any surprise that they want to go from zero to hero (C152 to A320) in the shortest possible time and at least say they have worked as a jet airline pilot?
The likes of OAA are fanning the flames of this attitude by pitching seriously glossy "Zero to Flight deck - just pay and you're made" products without balancing it with integrity and the grounded reality that some of their students will have to take something a lot lower down the food chain. Shame on them for their arrogance will bite them in the arse.
The rest of the aviation world looks on in disbelief as they see 200 houred students go onto a 80t jet with the shared responsibilty of nearly 200 lives whilst they have had to earn that right - and rightly so. Its a deadly serious business not a joyride
Recent events have shown low houred, underpaid autopilot jockeys who may be well trained in SOPs are not always the backstop needed when things go seriously wrong.
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How to save money!!!
Great idea......... why not just buy a type rating and write the hours in your log book? It will save you shed loads of money and as we have already found out, one Sweedish Guy managed to go for 13 years in commercial aviation without a real licence!!!!
On the other hand, you could just be someone with integrity and avoid these schemes!
What the
makes you think you are any better than the people BMI have just laid off? Do you even care that some of those guys have been laid off to accommodate you? (Bang on about employment law if you want..... the company is bigger than the individual)
And when you run out of money and are applying for a job....... do you not think that the chaps that have just been laid off from BMI will not be ahead of you in the Q for a job.......... but you will all be held back because another snotty nosed moron with £40,000 to burn will actually keep you on the dole because he is prepared to pay for his flying........ and soon, he's going to join you in the same Q for a job and as long as there are snotty nosed morons who have £40,000 and lack integrity......... and as long as there are moronic TRE's that want to take £900 a day for training these chaps, the whole industry will suffer because the one thing that no amount of money will buy you is AIRMANSHIP..........
and one day, one of these superstars may just possibly be involved in an incident and if its proven that said snotty nosed moron got to where he is because he leap frogged good people with talent by paying to advance his way up the ladder, despite others being more qualified and more experienced........... i hope, and i pray that those with a legal claim as a result.............. will go after the gonads of the TRE / TRTO that trained and signed them off.
British Aerospace was recently fined £400 Million for giving backhanders to advance their cause and win military contracts. Its been proven that bribing your way to the top is illegal. Do it if you must...... but it only happens because you will be trained by spineless people..... you will work with spineless companies....... and you will be replaced by another spineless individual.................. but if you still want to go ahead and do it............ for £20,000 i'll make you an A320 TRE and then you can put those who trained you on the dole as well.
Let me know
GW
On the other hand, you could just be someone with integrity and avoid these schemes!
What the
makes you think you are any better than the people BMI have just laid off? Do you even care that some of those guys have been laid off to accommodate you? (Bang on about employment law if you want..... the company is bigger than the individual)And when you run out of money and are applying for a job....... do you not think that the chaps that have just been laid off from BMI will not be ahead of you in the Q for a job.......... but you will all be held back because another snotty nosed moron with £40,000 to burn will actually keep you on the dole because he is prepared to pay for his flying........ and soon, he's going to join you in the same Q for a job and as long as there are snotty nosed morons who have £40,000 and lack integrity......... and as long as there are moronic TRE's that want to take £900 a day for training these chaps, the whole industry will suffer because the one thing that no amount of money will buy you is AIRMANSHIP..........
and one day, one of these superstars may just possibly be involved in an incident and if its proven that said snotty nosed moron got to where he is because he leap frogged good people with talent by paying to advance his way up the ladder, despite others being more qualified and more experienced........... i hope, and i pray that those with a legal claim as a result.............. will go after the gonads of the TRE / TRTO that trained and signed them off.
British Aerospace was recently fined £400 Million for giving backhanders to advance their cause and win military contracts. Its been proven that bribing your way to the top is illegal. Do it if you must...... but it only happens because you will be trained by spineless people..... you will work with spineless companies....... and you will be replaced by another spineless individual.................. but if you still want to go ahead and do it............ for £20,000 i'll make you an A320 TRE and then you can put those who trained you on the dole as well.
Let me know
GW
Last edited by Global Warrior; 30th Mar 2010 at 07:25.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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PTF is here to stay, it features in most expanding airlines in Europe and now Asia, and, however we view the morals of this, it's the bean counters that ultimately decide the business models, the emphasis must now be on quality control and regulation, which hopefully is an area that can be influenced by " Management Pilots". It is a contradiction that the low hour "wannabe pilots" want to be offered jobs with a fully supported Type Rating by an airline, and yet the same bunch moan about low hours PTF guys getting jobs on the basis of experience and safety.. are you not, apart from the financial outlay, the same group? Or does paying for line training suddenly dilute your experience?
Perhaps companies offering line training should be regulated and approved to do so if the trainees are not " employees". Just a thought
Perhaps companies offering line training should be regulated and approved to do so if the trainees are not " employees". Just a thought
Join Date: Jun 2006
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I agree..... for sure its bean counters but they just dont see the big picture. Having more experienced (safer) Co-Pilots is expensive so lets replace with people that pay their own way........... However
If you think safety is expensive.......... try having an accident!!!!!
GW
If you think safety is expensive.......... try having an accident!!!!!
GW
the people BMI have just laid off? Do you even care that some of those guys have been laid off to accommodate you?
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Meanwhile in the good 'ol Usa ...trying to push for a MINIMUM of 1500 hours and full ATP for First Officers....main reason 'safety' .
If this goes through then perhaps our friends in JAA la land might think about it too,and kill of this pay to fly rubbish for ever.
If this goes through then perhaps our friends in JAA la land might think about it too,and kill of this pay to fly rubbish for ever.