Self Sponsored A320 Type Rating & Line Training - J Curd
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So how do PTF LT schemes end?
A spate of accidents involving fatalities??
We already have a documented incident involving a PTF pilot. The AAIB listed a poor training history from CPL instruction onwards, an initial failure of the pre-entrance assessment for the SSTR and PTF course on a B737 sim (subsequent assessment was offered on the A320 which was 'passed'), continual training issues involving the landing manoeuvre as part of the A320 TR, a failure of the initial LST requiring subsequent retraining, failure of the initial base check and return to the simulator for further retraining and continued difficulties with the final phase of the landing manoeuvre when on line.
Result 'Severely damaged main gear'
Recommendations - The Greek CAA review the performance of the PAPI system at Kos Airport, Mytravel review their airfield brief for Kos and that LTCs should be trained on a baulked landing recovery technique.
A spate of accidents involving fatalities??
We already have a documented incident involving a PTF pilot. The AAIB listed a poor training history from CPL instruction onwards, an initial failure of the pre-entrance assessment for the SSTR and PTF course on a B737 sim (subsequent assessment was offered on the A320 which was 'passed'), continual training issues involving the landing manoeuvre as part of the A320 TR, a failure of the initial LST requiring subsequent retraining, failure of the initial base check and return to the simulator for further retraining and continued difficulties with the final phase of the landing manoeuvre when on line.
Result 'Severely damaged main gear'
Recommendations - The Greek CAA review the performance of the PAPI system at Kos Airport, Mytravel review their airfield brief for Kos and that LTCs should be trained on a baulked landing recovery technique.
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BALPA blah blah......
NSF, is that really you posting or has someone hijacked your pprune callsign?
A year ago you were typing fairly sensible stuff on here , now you seem to be blinded by what BALPA has actually achieved re: EZY TRSS, CTC Cadets and now P2F. The Log contains advertising for P2F and most TREs who train these folk with more money/credit than sense are members of BALPA! They have done absolutely nothing about CTC practices.
Stop bashing other unions and start refusing to fly with P2F. maybe get one of Superpilot's T shirts and wear it on the flight deck and through the departure lounge.
James 1013 has the right perspective re: FI jobs and why wanabees can't get in or don't want to go that route. The other reason is the loss of the 700h CPL route.
BA cadets were company sponsored all the way and proved that with good training, proper support and backing a 250h junior FO could make it to Command (but not in year 3 after a few hundred more hours i.e: once he had served 10-20years learning the ropes!). Many of those cadets started on BAE ATPs - not all went to 747s straight away and if they did they were sent back down to smaller jets to get commands.
P2F is a sick joke and those who support it directly or indirectly (company rosters you to fly with one) are shooting us all in the foot.
A year ago you were typing fairly sensible stuff on here , now you seem to be blinded by what BALPA has actually achieved re: EZY TRSS, CTC Cadets and now P2F. The Log contains advertising for P2F and most TREs who train these folk with more money/credit than sense are members of BALPA! They have done absolutely nothing about CTC practices.
Stop bashing other unions and start refusing to fly with P2F. maybe get one of Superpilot's T shirts and wear it on the flight deck and through the departure lounge.
James 1013 has the right perspective re: FI jobs and why wanabees can't get in or don't want to go that route. The other reason is the loss of the 700h CPL route.
BA cadets were company sponsored all the way and proved that with good training, proper support and backing a 250h junior FO could make it to Command (but not in year 3 after a few hundred more hours i.e: once he had served 10-20years learning the ropes!). Many of those cadets started on BAE ATPs - not all went to 747s straight away and if they did they were sent back down to smaller jets to get commands.
P2F is a sick joke and those who support it directly or indirectly (company rosters you to fly with one) are shooting us all in the foot.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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oh and by the way
And....... dont forget....... when these guys fly..... they are flying on your licence....... not theirs. If they 
up..... you kiss bye bye to your earning potential!!!!
GW
up..... you kiss bye bye to your earning potential!!!!GW
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Superpilot
The t-shirt march might just have legs ...99.9 pct of the paying public have no idea that their 'grizzled veteran' up front might just be some rich kid actually paying to sit in the hot seat ...
I believe in the UK it is still possible to organise a protest and march all the way to the gates of 10 Downing Street,London...and hand in a written protest to the Government.
You could probably even get some of the more 'political ' newspapers interested in giving it a fair deal of coverage in this election year ...dont worry they will sort out suitable headlines !
The media has a massive amount of power in the UK..get them on board and enjoy the ride...dont forget the shades tho !
The t-shirt march might just have legs ...99.9 pct of the paying public have no idea that their 'grizzled veteran' up front might just be some rich kid actually paying to sit in the hot seat ...
I believe in the UK it is still possible to organise a protest and march all the way to the gates of 10 Downing Street,London...and hand in a written protest to the Government.
You could probably even get some of the more 'political ' newspapers interested in giving it a fair deal of coverage in this election year ...dont worry they will sort out suitable headlines !
The media has a massive amount of power in the UK..get them on board and enjoy the ride...dont forget the shades tho !
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Just remember folks the CAA don't just give out Atpl's like cookies,they have to be earned and have to work just as hard as any airline sponsored cadet . The type rating is the same standard and the only difference is they weren't fortuanate enough to get it all handed on a plate. If these Pilot's don't cut the mustard they simply do not pass the course or the line training,simple as that. If your against low time pilots flying large commercial aircraft that's fine, then British Airways should also follow this route as it cuts both ways.On the other hand if it's good for BA the same should follow for self sponsored,
the only difference is the BA guys have been through a selection procedure oh and a 2 day RT course so they can all sound the same!
the only difference is the BA guys have been through a selection procedure oh and a 2 day RT course so they can all sound the same!
Join Date: Mar 2005
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fcom you are wrong.
In many other cadet programs (other that ptf) the process is totally different:
1st_ selection
2nd_ cadet program
3rd_ passing all tests and exams
4th_ passing the TR
If you failed to meet the minimum requirements in steps 2,3, or 4...
Good Bye.
If you did OK...
5th_ hired with a permanent contract
The ptf programs that you advocate follow a different process. To begin with, there is no selection as such, other than money or is it?. Then, getting the licenses is very easy, nowadays, to be honest. Or isn't? Forrest Gump could do it in less than two years. The TRTOs involved rarely fail a pilot, or do they? And then you get (but this is not guaranteed) a temporary contract for 6 months, after which, next "candidates" will come, and you will have to pay your sims to remain current, etc..
You cannot compare!
In the proper cadet programs, cadets were the raw materials that airlines require to make the product: pilots.
In nowadays programs, cadets are the customers of a number of bloodsuckers, one of which are greedy airlines that want to magically turn costs into revenues.
The best pilots I know came through cadet programs. Very talented people. Very good training. Superb results.
You cannot compare!
In many other cadet programs (other that ptf) the process is totally different:
1st_ selection
2nd_ cadet program
3rd_ passing all tests and exams
4th_ passing the TR
If you failed to meet the minimum requirements in steps 2,3, or 4...
Good Bye.
If you did OK...
5th_ hired with a permanent contract
The ptf programs that you advocate follow a different process. To begin with, there is no selection as such, other than money or is it?. Then, getting the licenses is very easy, nowadays, to be honest. Or isn't? Forrest Gump could do it in less than two years. The TRTOs involved rarely fail a pilot, or do they? And then you get (but this is not guaranteed) a temporary contract for 6 months, after which, next "candidates" will come, and you will have to pay your sims to remain current, etc..
You cannot compare!
In the proper cadet programs, cadets were the raw materials that airlines require to make the product: pilots.
In nowadays programs, cadets are the customers of a number of bloodsuckers, one of which are greedy airlines that want to magically turn costs into revenues.
The best pilots I know came through cadet programs. Very talented people. Very good training. Superb results.
You cannot compare!
Join Date: Nov 2007
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I refer the above honourable gentleman to the post made some pages ago...
These days, cash is King it seems. 
Not good for future safety. 
.....only a few of the initial Hamble entrants passed through their course onto the airline now known as BA - guys were often chopped. Tough and exacting standards, NOT cash, were required.
Not good for future safety.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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NSF,
I enormously respect you but your views about J Curd are misplaced. Put frankly. Right now, the only way I can get into easyJet is to hand over £25k to a man who lied to my face and to others. I could go and pay EagleJet less than that for more hours on type (if I had the inclination). However as eJ's doors are only open to those who have come from ATP Fame or CTC Flexicrew (who are also disadvantaged right now), I can never be employed by your airline no matter how good an A320 pilot I am. That's where the shame begins.
I enormously respect you but your views about J Curd are misplaced. Put frankly. Right now, the only way I can get into easyJet is to hand over £25k to a man who lied to my face and to others. I could go and pay EagleJet less than that for more hours on type (if I had the inclination). However as eJ's doors are only open to those who have come from ATP Fame or CTC Flexicrew (who are also disadvantaged right now), I can never be employed by your airline no matter how good an A320 pilot I am. That's where the shame begins.
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Put frankly. Right now, the only way I can get into easyJet is to hand over £25k to a man who lied to my face and to others
Sure the current incumbents will bitch like stink and demand that BALPA get involved and will complain about falling standards, safety implications and erosion of experience levels. Of course they could grow some gonads now and stand up for their fellow employees but they wont so they wont be able to use those excuses when it happens to them.
But the same TRE's that train the P2F candidates at the TRTO's are the same TRE's at the airline so they would never sign you off as they are protecting their own little patch. Its a disgrace.
Used to be the more experience you had the more chance you had of getting a job. Now the less experience you have the more likely you are to find a job...................... so pay to fly must be bad thing as it gives you more experience which makes you less employable
Last edited by Global Warrior; 4th Apr 2010 at 07:13.
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A minor correction if I may GW....
Used to be the more experience you had the more chance you had of getting a job. Now the less experience you have the more likely you are to find a job
Possibly and more like: Now the less experience you have and the more money you have the more likely you are to find a job
Albeit for that amazing, command building, experience of 200 hours.
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Originally Posted by FCOM
Just remember folks the CAA don't just give out Atpl's like cookies,they have to be earned and have to work just as hard as any airline sponsored cadet . The type rating is the same standard and the only difference is they weren't fortuanate enough to get it all handed on a plate. If these Pilot's don't cut the mustard they simply do not pass the course or the line training,simple as that. If your against low time pilots flying large commercial aircraft that's fine, then British Airways should also follow this route as it cuts both ways.On the other hand if it's good for BA the same should follow for self sponsored, the only difference is the BA guys have been through a selection procedure oh and a 2 day RT course so they can all sound the same!
No one is claiming that some guys who do a SSTR aren't as capable as a sponsored cadet - but it would be impossible to guarantee an SSTR guy has reached a higher level than the basic requirements of a type rating primarily as money is a driving force.
