easyJet/CTC Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract

[Locarno]

I'm really sorry to see that you're so full of hatred for us cadet pilots.

Is this really the beginning of the end? Regardless whether you hate the cadet scheme or not, this could be the beginning for FOs flying for minimum wage - the previous scheme was fine!

[silverknapper]

Poor kid crap doesn't cut it here Locarno. Neither does the "how dare you" attitude.
Ultimately most of you signed up for the easy option which you thought would get you in to the RHS of a jet without any real effort or experience. You didn't read the small print, nor have any regard for the fact you were signing up to a level of debt which would be unmanageable given an economic downturn, which lets face it was forecast and bound to happen. Think about it. £60,000 in debt from day one. CTC exists for one reason - to make money. They aren't doing it for poor kids to let them become successful as Locarno puts it. And I still maintain that CTC encouraged people to take up aviation as a career who wouldn't have been bothered before. I have seen it myself, guys who have said "I wouldn't be doing this if I was paying for it." Well guess what, you were. And if you all agree to this what do you think they will do to you next? Why not just bend over now?

As an aside a colleague of mine taught CTC guys PPL's in NZ a while back. He says they fell into two distinct categories. Decent blokes who wanted to do well and become good pilots, and arrogant sods who actually told the instructors that they would be flying jets in 2 years, what would they be doing?!!!!!

What did your contracts actually state? Could someone post the words here? If it stated your £60k paid for a CPL/IR and a type rating then you may as well all club together and get a lawyer. Out of curiosity did any of the whingers from CTC join Balpa as student members? If you did then I agree with them getting involved and trying to help you. If not then you're on your own.

[northern boy]

And so you see, children, some things were never meant to fly. Like the Ostrich and the northern Dodo.

Leo, I have been flying commercially for the last 15 years.

Could it be something else keeping you ground bound? Attitude perhaps?

Nope its the economy stupid. Plus the fact that every company is rushing to emulate yours.

Being hysterical doesn't help your case much. If the CTC deal is too much to bear, don't accept it.

Please tell me exactly where I was being hysterical? And as I have already pointed out why would I need the CTC deal? Do keep up.

If you feel the need to point the bone at something at the root cause of your misfortune, point it at the unions who, for decades, have sought to create a virtual cartel of whom could fly and who not.

The company I currently work for does not have a union. As for unions deciding who flies and who doesn't I am fascinated and shocked that I missed that one. Please provide a link to documentary evidence that unions were in charge of ticket sales or airport security or in fact stood at the gate vetting passengers as they boarded.

Failed to pass stage 1 did you, Northern Boy?

Stage 1 of what? Please refer to my above reply to Mr. Camel and then be so good as to let us know the full extent of your aviation experience including hours, type ratings and current employment.

[UAV689]

I remember when I was at uni and CTC first appeared, I considered it, and thought better of it. Even back then i am pretty sure it said you would get a job 'if an airline needed you'. I have always been cynical enough to think about the worst, and take precautions.

People going into ctc/oxford and et al need to have their eyes wide open to what you get told by them. They are a buisness, they make profit. And in case you havent worked out they make that out of you.

If people are still going to CTC they want their heads tested. Absolutely mental.

To those offered the contact, walk away. Get a job that pays you money, even outside of aviation and walk away. If no one takes up these pathetic offers, these offers will stop appearing. Whilst people continue to accept, guess what, next year those offers will worse, and when you get to the expensive salary (3rd yr) you aint gonna fly, your too expensive, bring in the next zombie. Simples.

To those that are about to go to a CTC open day, dont. Cancel it. Dont even go to the assesment. Dont listen to them say 'now is a great time to train', its not. When the supply demand curve then is able to equalise out start training, there should be better terms then. Its all about market forces. Its not down to them to stop taking people on, they are just trying to make money, its down to YOU not to apply. To use your better judgement and not give them more profit.

Yes i know you want it. Its all you have ever wanted to do. Same with me. I first went solo 10 years ago and I am still working towards getting training completed, debt free. Then when you pass it all without the likes of ctc you can be proud you worked for it, are debt free, and will be able to take a lot more options with no debt. A 30k job with no debt aint that bad, but with 100k to pay off..thats another matter. Taxi to beachy head anyone...

[Locarno]

I can't see what the need for such flaming etc is - I mean sure, I took the "easy" route, and sure - I'm in a lot of debt right now. But I don't see whats so wrong about that - I've always wanted to be a pilot, at the time, I couldn't see anyway I was going to turn down the deal that CTC offered.
Just like I can't see anyway I'll be able to turn down this deal if it gets offered to me.

Anyways, I realise I've just opened myself up to bitter flaming so I'm not going to say anything further on the matter, but I will continue to read and hopefully we'll be able to work something out.


I'll finish by saying : Sure, there are a few people who say to examiners "I'll be flying jets in 2 years" but the vast majority have a genuine passion for aviation and decided this would be the best route into that career. Whether or not we made a terrible decision to do so is irrelevant, we did do so.

[average bloke]

Locarno,

There are many pilots who started with no money (and a lot of us still don't have much today, but that's another story!). But to take out a massive loan to pay for something you clearly did not research properly or make contingency plans for is just stupid I'm afraid. There are many who have worked long and hard over many years to become pilots. We now see our salaries eroded and career options more and more limited, in part, although by no means exclusively, by people who wanted the quick way in. Without debt you have options, with debt you're stuffed - sorry, but that's life. Hope it is a lesson learnt.

Personally, I would like to see some form of legislation stating minimum hours to fly large public transport aircraft to strangle these schemes. I don't want BALPA to step in and 'save the day' either.

I remember once going for an interview as an instructor at FTE. There were all these young kids wearing sun glasses at the bar, singing along to the theme from Top Gun. It would have been funny if it wasn't so pathetic. A lot of them were destined for a Dash 8 at the time, not an F14. Needless to say I didn't take the job.

[silverknapper]

How many hours did you have on your PPL before you started with CTC Locarno?

[lpokijuhyt]

average bloke:

are you serious...there were cadets sitting around the bar singing their little lungs out to Kenny Loggin's "Danger Zone" and "You lost that love and feeling?" I'm gonna laugh and then promptly vomit.

[UAV689]

"You lost that love and feeling?"

More like

"You lost your credit rating,
he's lost his parent house
and now its gone, gone, gone"

sorry a bit in sensitive. back to work now.

[Locarno]

What exactly is so wrong with paying for an education, recieving the education, doing the internship/apprenticeship/line training, then starting in the career.

Thats the way it's been forever with things from medicine to hairdressing to bricklaying to becoming a lawyer.

Why should we have to work our way up slowly to finally getting paid 10 years after training. At the end of the day, it's just a job.


And to whoever asked : Towards my PPL? About 5 or 6? Tops?
Did have a few hundred gliding though.

[average bloke]

All true I'm afraid. Like the lyrics UAV

What exactly is so wrong with paying for an education

Nothing, but it depends on your interpretation of 'paying'. To me, paying is using MY money to purchase something. Unless we are talking about something which has an intrinsic value (such as a house), which can be liquidated if you cannot meet the mortgage payments. A CPL/IR does not meet those criteria.

[FLEX/MCT]

I have been quietly reading this thread in the background since it began but after some of the recent posts I feel I have to comment.

I am a former CTC cadet who started training in summer 2006. At the end of my CTC course (early 2008) I was taken on by a UK charter airline, type rated and after my 6 months of line experience given a permanent contract. After 18 months on short haul buses, myself and my fellow CTC joiners have just completed our A330 conversions. I consider myself extremely lucky to be where I am.

There are hundreds of stories like these from previous cadet courses. They were the norm up until the events of late 2008. They are shoved down your throat at CTC open days and throughout selection. They are hard to ignore, big images of smiling cadets in A320s, 737s, 757s. Big shiny jets.

Sometimes they even bring these similing faces along with them, all dressed up in uniforms of blue and gold.

I have every sympathy for those guys currently floating in the holding pool. When they joined and heard these (then current) stories, who with a dream as strong as learning to fly would not think "I wish I was doing that"? I know I sat at selection and thought the same! And with the 100% placement record it seemed acheivable.

It is hard to ignore the sales pitch for flying training coming from people who are professionals at selling flying training. These cadets signed up for a product that could no longer deliver, but would not find out until it was too late. Contrary to some on this forum, I do not blame the victims of this 'slavery'. If I had joined two or three months down the line from when I did I too would be in their position without a doubt.

I do have a couple of points to address prior to continuing.

Firstly, the allegation that cadets can't do the job properly. We are all LPC/OPC qualified to the same level as everybody else. I have heard of many incidents including go-arounds, double FMGC failures and even engine failures on rotation that have been handled correctly by cadet pilots and with the competency of the crew praised by pilot management. Yes there have been mistakes too, but even experienced pilots make those and I have seen no evidence to suggest cadet pilots are a liability!

This allegation that we are somehow 'jumping the queue' is offensive. "Well thank you for the offer of the RHS of an Airbus with Thomas First Monarch Airlines, but I really think I should take two years instructing on Terrorhawks, 2 years flying Senecas for an air taxi firm and another three on Dash 8s before trying my luck on jets, thanks". I bet you dont hear that one much. I am not belittling the self improve route - I love flying and was willing to take whichever route was neccessary to achieve my goal and sometimes I do think I missed out on the turboprop experience. But I took the best option available to me and it has paid off handsomely.

As for CTC people being arrogant, yes there are always a few of those in any group of people. Can you honestly say you have never worked with people you thought were cocky so-and-sos? I found the vast majority of CTC cadets to be some of the most hardworking, get-your-head down people I have ever met. Given what you sometimes have to put up with during training (repetitve crushing of self-confidence anyone?) they achieve a high level of performance and are probably pretty well prepared for the bile being vented towards them by certain parts of the aviation industry to boot!

Anyway, back to the topic in hand, who would I blame for the current threat to Ts and Cs? Well I am not privy to the full details of this contract as most here probably aren't either. I suppose easyjet created the employment conditions making it possible by breaking the previous tradition of employing CTC guys after their first six months and CTC have pandered to this, first with flexicrew and now with this new, abhorent scheme. Brookfields and Ryanair could also be considered acountable.

I know a lot of you were geared up to view CTC cadets with suspicion or even hatred prior to these events and feel even more so now, but I ask you to please direct your anger at the people actually responsible for this mess, ie. the companies that have created it, not the poor guys (and their ambitions) who are their puppets.

p.s. usual apologies for the long post!

[UAV689]

Thats the way it's been forever with things from medicine to hairdressing to bricklaying to becoming a lawyer.

Not really, doctors get uni funding via goverment, as do lawyers.
Hairdressers, brickies, etc do apprentiships paid for by companies! I have never met hairdresser or brickie in debt through training, yes they get paid peanuts in training, but they dont pay to train.

People that join CTC/oxford are a bit like those karoke superstars on x-factor. Instead of writing a song/forming band/putting in effort etc all hopes are pinned on wh*ring themselves out in the press and to simon cowel to skip the queue and get a xmas number one.

Come on rage against machine!

[average bloke]

It is hard to ignore the sales pitch for flying training coming from people who are professionals at selling flying training

Just the same as it is hard to ignore the slick pitch from a time-share salesman? Come off it. People get into these things because the heart takes over from the head. To then blame someone else when it goes wrong is absurd. Do you pity those fools you see on television living on worthless unfinished building sites in Spain, who tried to get into the buy to let market on easy credit? Easy credit is to blame for the current situation at Easyjet. I used to have to go and see my bank manager for an interview just for a £50 overdraft - not that long ago either. I just hope that the credit dries up soon, and people have to use their intelligence and skills to achieve their goals, rather than a biro. Sign here master Bloggs

[greywind]

As usual there's a lot of name calling and s**t slinging going on, but well I guess people are passionate.

I especially like -

You didn't read the small print, nor have any regard for the fact you were signing up to a level of debt which would be unmanageable given an economic downturn, which lets face it was forecast and bound to happen.

Would that be the same economic downturn which people working in the banking industry hadn't predicted? Oh right yeah, that would be the one, that happened about after I and plenty of others started at CTC?
Personally I did read the small print, there was no guaranteed offer of a job, I knew that and I am now fully prepared to declare myself bankrupt when HSBC come knocking accept the consequences. But looking back now the level of lending was irresponsible and should never have been offered without the guarantee of a job at the end. I am just glad that my loan is on an unsecured basis and cannot believe that there are those who are now entering the scheme with loans secured on parents property, but that is a decision that is theirs to make.

However whether you agree with what has gone on or not it may still effect everyone within the industry so just sitting back and revelling in the problems of current CTC cadets will do you no favours if these kind of changes start to have knock on effects for other peoples contracts.

[UAV689]

i bet ocean finance are going to have a booming year this year...

maybe their ad's will get rid of the ugly over weight in-breds and replace them with Easy crews sitting round on a sofa saying how their life is great since the consolidated all their debt into one carefree payment.

please please please jokes aside, refuse this deal. We all want a jet job bad but if there is one motto to live by its

"never take sh*it off a c*unt"
UAV689 15 Dec 2009.

[silverknapper]

Locarno

You contradict yourself:

What exactly is so wrong with paying for an education, recieving the education, doing the internship/apprenticeship/line training

Is at odds with:

Why should we have to work our way up slowly

By definition doing an apprenticeship means working ones way up, learning at every stage. Being paid incrementally more as you go.
The second quote I feel sums up your attitude. That you feel entitled to go straight to a top paying job with no effort or hard work. And I get the impression there isn't much sympathy out there for such an attitude.

If this industry keeps on it's current path I think i will re train. perhaps a law degree. Fly for fun. If CTC start legal training perhaps I could pay them over the odds for my degree then get a job straight in as a QC. Anyone?

I am now fully prepared to declare myself bankrupt when HSBC come knocking

How big of you!!!! Why not stop acting like a wee kid, get a job and stand up to your debt like a man/woman.

UAV, I like the x factor analogy how very topical!!

[average bloke]

UAV's Ocean Finance joke was good as well. Perhaps he could host his own show - 'Mock The Weak'.

[greywind]

How big of you!!!! Why not stop acting like a wee kid, get a job and stand up to your debt like a man/woman.

Thanks for the advice but as HSBC are currently saying that it's pay the full amount monthly or go bankrupt they're not really leaving me much choice with that one.

[blackred1443]

Actually sparksy83 i believe quite a few in the banking industry predicted what has happened, try mervyn king for starters didn't he warn Alistair Darling that all was not good but was ignored. The level of unsecured lending to the entire 'Jerry Springer' and Jeremy Kyle' audience was always going to end in tears.

I must say even the name 'cadets' irritates me, at least MOL calls them contractors. That is what they are, this is cheap labour that is ripping the arse out of T&C in the industry. If you take the risks and you end up RHS of a nice jet on a proper contract then good for you, but if you try to skip the queue and then it falls apart, well such is life.Im all for striking to improve T&C but its a bit hard to fight for people that lose money on a huge gamble and cry when the horse falls at the last hurdle. There are hundreds of experienced and rated guys that are being shafted due to CTC/BRK contractors. So many Thomsonfly, Excel, Virgin etc. pilots without work, for these i feel alot of sympathy. This hopefully could be the end of CTC/BRK contractors as the banks clampdown on easy credit. Good riddance. If you have some passion for aviation then surely you would would be eager to experience all facets of it particularly the less glamourous side like light twin flying,instructing,turbo prop, military not just straight onto an A319/737 with a pair of raybans on your head.