easyJet/CTC Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract

[toolowtoofast]

Originally Posted by john_smith

(cut for brevity)
The job is simply not worth living like a hermit for three years, subsisting on bread and water.

Only 3 years? Luxury

The way I see it, there's three ways to get into a shiny jet. Each carries risks and challenges.

Air Force. Risk of being shot down/killed, have to live in Afganistan/Iraq or somewhere equally attractive. Locked in for 10 years (at least) and spend a lot of that time b*^tching about how hard done by you are.

Actually go to work at a job you don't really like, pay upfront for PPL, CPL, instructor rating etc, ie, work your way up from the bottom. Takes about 10 years from solo to jet - a lot of that spent b*^tching about having to live on noodles and toast.

Fully funded integrated/modular course. Throw many many thousands of $$ into a hole to get the qualification quickly, then spend the next 10 years b*^ching and moaning about how much it costs you each month to repay.

As far as I see, just get on with it, take a red pill, and find something to do.

[Wodka]

What really concerns me is the precedent that is being set here and the resultant damage to the traditional career path.

I am currently para dropping and am really enjoying it. I slogged my guts out working for 3 years to save for the fATPL and simply do not have another £30k to spend on a TR at the moment. I am quite happy to work my way up the ladder and 'do my time' but now am starting to think - is there any point any more? ...am I still just going to hit a wall at some point and be asked for £30k regardless of how much air taxi / turboprop etc experience I might have acquired?

I don't really blame the cadets, they are in a tight corner. I blame the greedy, selfish management who are only interested in profits and there own bonus. This is not just an airline industry specific problem. It's part of a wider fundamental problem with capitalism which is slowly destroying society as we know it.

Only co-ordinated, specific, firm action from the likes of the CAA, BALPA and highly influential senior training captains will put a stop to this imo.

[Elephant and Castle]

WAKE UP! guys. Is three years of harship and then off to the dole queue while the next batch of CTC hopefuls fills your shoes. Three years of hardship for NOTHING

The whole point of what is happening is that there will be NO jobs at all for experienced guys. There is absolutely no point to this. You may as well go bankrupt now and get started in a new carreer. The alternative is to get shafted and work for nothing for three years and then go bankrupt and look for a new career. You have been conned but some of you seem ever so keen for a second round. Don't you get it? experienced guys cannot get a job anymore; what is the point of suffering to gain experience?

[dragonfly6]

As an ex ctc-cadet who got in and out at the right time, the number of bitter people who like to cadet bash because they took a harder route into the job never fails to amaze me. I fly permanently and the standard/commitment/potential of pilots will vary enourmously whether your a cadet or not.

I do appreciate what CTC/EZY/CAA/RYANAIR are doing to the industry and how BALPA is failing to deal with it properly. I also know its is bad news for the lot of us in the long run. However blaming trainees for the state of the industry shows just how little grip you have on what is actualy going on.

[silverknapper]

LTCs and TREs, stop doing training

Can't see that happening. You lot weren't looking out for the next breed of FO's when you took this offer so why should experienced guys who didn't buy a job ( or attempt to) put their neck on the line for you? Besides if it did no doubt CTC would start selling LTC packages to unsuspecting fools, only £120k and you'll be a line trainer! Remember that yesterdays CTC cadets could be tomorrows CTC Captains. And this is where the cancer creeps in. Once this starts to happen there really will be no going back. There could be entire bases filled with CTC zombies, all earning a pittance and all able to bend over at a moments notice. And all with so much experience to fall back on from their commands in previous TP or biz jet jobs!!!
And once the company achieves this there really will be no hope for future terms and conditions. I wonder what they will start charging for a command course soon?!

there are not enough hours in the day to make enough money to live and pay HSBC working "normal" jobs

There probably is if you want to. you probably need 1k for the loans, then a few hundred for food etc. Live at mummy and daddys. Gross of £22k should be more than adequate. Anyone can earn this if they work hard enough. But then by your attitude John you want it all handed to you on a plate.

flying air taxi etc. before joining an airline, I simply ask why?

Hmmm if you have to ask? Because it is desireable to have some experience to fall back on. Because one day you may be in the LHS ( at what cost!!!!) and have to make hard decisions based on previous experience. Someone mentioned earlier that everyone passes an LPC so is equal. Well maybe we can all fly an ILS on one engine, but if I was a pax on an orange bus and heaven forbid the skipper keeled over I would much prefer the FO to be an ex TP skipper with a few thousand hours on his first day on line than a CTC cadet with 200 hrs in a plastic twin. Who is sleeping in his car because he can't afford a flat because he is paid hourly. And owes more than he earns.

Suffice it to say, if the CTC route had not been available, I would not have contemplated flying as a career

That's a shame. The best operators I fly with are without exception the guys who love flying and couldn't contemplate doing anything else. Other guys spend all day bitching and moaning, and are to a man a crap day out. Perhaps you are best out of aviation altogether. When the chips are down, you're having a long horrible day and you can't afford a pot noodle, if you can't at least take some pleasure in living the dream then you are wasting your time. Go bankrupt and work in tesco. That's easy!!

[siftydog]

Sorry to blow any little bubbles here, but the only way this will stop is if people just refuse to bend over and take a 5ft dole pineapple up the arse while they dump on all behind them to get fresh mitts on the shiny jet.
In sure BALPA, the senior guys et al will do what they can, but at the end of the day it will only slow it down.

As I've said previously, easy are short of crew right now and will be more so in the Spring; something they're doing for political reasons but that's another discussion.
Despicable as it is, they're exploiting you people because they think they can get away with it and you collectively let them.

Is a bit of time on the outside earning cash aligning for the better paid commuter jobs coming along every now and again such a bad thing?

[ex desert dweller]

Try other TRTO,s

CTC are not the only organisation offering TR,s
Try the Open Market or is it Meerkat !!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

[AlpineSkier]

Will this post be welcomed ?

I'm not an economist, but everything works in an economic framework.

There is no law that says a pilot will work for "X" or " 0.5 X " or "2.0X" ( when times are good)`

It's in man's nature to bitch when he feels hard done by and brag when he feels top of the heap.

I see that a lot of people here are rather more affected than at the bitching/bragging level but that is what happens in major swings in the economy cf. house repossessions '92- 95

[Pizzaro]

Balpa, an article in the LOG regarding this scandal is not good enough, please start protecting our industry !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards P.

[RED WINGS]

Begs the question, how do they get around the minimum wage??

[oapilot]

Quote:
LTCs and TREs, stop doing training

Can't see that happening. You lot weren't looking out for the next breed of FO's when you took this offer so why should experienced guys who didn't buy a job ( or attempt to) put their neck on the line for you?

Unless something major changes in this industry, there are always going to be newbies willing to take a punt on getting a job through pay to fly schemes.

The more airline recruiters devalue and dismiss experience gained via the "traditional routes" the worse it will get. After all why instruct/fly TPs for crap money when all you will get from from jet operators is "have you got 500 hours on type, never mind, that will be £xx,000 for your rating then".

Similarily, LTC's and TRE's will never stop training because if they do, their employers will soon find someone else who will.

Line captains won't refuse to fly with cadets for the same reason.

Management and the schools, too much cash to be saved/made.

BALPA can't do anything but campaign.

The CAA, well why would they get involved, no ones died yet and there isn't a processing fee involved.

I could go on and on, but that's the problem with aviation, it's always someone elses problem.....

[eagle-eyed]

MOR MOR MOR....

If you find you are flying with anyone who is flying when they shouldnt be (fatigue, sickness, or forced into discretion etc) file an MOR...Hopefully the CAA will get fed up being bombarded with paper work.

Ill smile each time i fill one in

[Desk-pilot]

Disgusting

I have to say that this contract is utterly beyond belief - the industry really is going to hell in a handcart faster than I thought.

I was at a major UK airport the other day chatting with our refueller. We got onto the subject of salaries etc and even he was surprised when he discovered that his £30k basic salary was more than I am on as a turboprop F/O - it makes you wonder when the guy fuelling the plane is earning more than the bloke flying it... I wonder if the pax realise it!

Having said that my own turboprop type rating, hotels, uniforms etc were paid for the company and I was paid a full F/O salary from day one of the induction week so compared to the likes of Easy and Ryan they're actually offering a far better deal to low hours guys.

I would strongly suggest however that bright young things should seriously question the merits of an airline career nowadays - in the loco sector it's not glamorous, it's very poorly paid, the employment prospects are awful and the disruption to your social and personal life and sleep cycles is damaging in the longer term. I just can't understand anybody wanting to do it given the way the industry is heading.

I for one support BA cabin crew in seeking to preserve their terms and conditions - the problem it seems to me isn't that they're paid too much but that the rest of the industry pays too little.

Desk-pilot

[Orange Peel]

I was at a major UK airport the other day chatting with our refueller. We got onto the subject of salaries etc and even he was surprised when he discovered that his £30k basic salary was more than I am on as a turboprop F/O - it makes you wonder when the guy fuelling the plane is earning more than the bloke flying it... I wonder if the pax realise it!

1. The pax don't care, aviation is price sensitive.

2. It's market forces at work. I don't imagine that there are many starry eyed teenagers leaving school saying, "gosh, I want to be a refueller". The same cannot be said for the pilot profession. Whilst there are a pool of wannabes waiting to sit in the RHS why pay them over the odds? If they wish to work for crap money that's up to them. Nobody has put a gun to their head have they?

3. The market will eventually pick up and there may even be competition between airlines for employees. People who sign the CTC contract may regret signing up to it. However if they are happy to sign it so be it.

[The Real Slim Shady]

I was at a major UK airport the other day chatting with our refueller. We got onto the subject of salaries etc and even he was surprised when he discovered that his £30k basic salary was more than I am on as a turboprop F/O - it makes you wonder when the guy fuelling the plane is earning more than the bloke flying it... I wonder if the pax realise it!

Between leaving unversity and waiting for my RAF IOT cse to start I worked as a labourer in the steelworks.

My last week's pay in the steelworks was more than my first month's pay in the RAF: however, I had potential to earn substantially more.

That is what you have: potential. The refueller is probably at max increment and can't make anymore money in that job.

[Doug the Head]

That is what you have: potential. The refueller is probably at max increment and can't make anymore money in that job.

The problem is that with the advent of the low-costs (unionized or not), this potential has been significantly decreased. A lot of low-cost pilots can brag all they want about 'how much they earn' but if you add things like inflation, working hours, benefits, pension, health care insurance etc, and compare it to how much the average pilot was making before the advent of the low-costs, then the picture isn't that rosy anymore.

So far I've mostly observed this thread, but I've drawn two major conclusions out of this whole mess;

1) Slowly but surely it's finally becoming evident that low-cost airlines are not career airlines. Many cadets, perhaps partly misled by the rosy/orange picture drawn on by some PPRuNe participants, probably thought that they were buying a ticket into the fast lane to a steady and lucrative career airline job, but this mirage has now completely disappeared. Welcome to the real world folks!

2) Most pilots (again, unionized or not) who were already working for these low-cost airlines have woken up way too late in order defend T&C's and stop the rot/cancer. Up to a point (and I can't believe I'm saying this) I have to agree with The Real Slim Shady in his criticism of BALPA. During the good years they have done little to nothing to stop these cadet/TRSS scams from happening, thus allowing the thin end of the wedge to be inserted. I joined on the TRSS scam, and I was always surprised at the passive "just pay the 23k and be fat dumb and happy in a career airline" mentality from my colleagues and also BALPA. Yes ok, I also signed on the dotted line, but at least I tried to fight for change from within, yet nobody appeared interested at the time...

Now it's too late, Pandora's box is wide open and there is little to no leverage during a deep recession to change anything regarding these shameful 17th century working conditions. And I'm afraid it will only get worse....

[One9iner]

Can anyone comment on whether 28k for the type rating is 'competitive.'

From what I've read (I could be wrong)

In the past
1) A wannabe pays CTC over £70k to be trained
2) The cadet is placed with EZY and paid 1k a month for 6 months
3) Is then taken on permanently
4) EZY pay CTC 28k for the cadet/type rating cost

Then the flexi contract came in last year; so then
2) The cadet works on a temp contract and is paid £x per hour
3) The cadet isn't taken on permanently
4) CTC never re-coup the cost for type rating.

And now, EZY have told CTC they're not willing to ever pay £28k for a cadet again. So...

2)The cadet works on a temp contract and is paid £x per hour
3)EZY pay CTC the 28k
4) The cadet pays EZY the 28k back over x years.

Surely if 28k is not a competitive rate for the cost of a type rating the initial cost of training needs to be cut.

i.e.

1) Cadet pays CTC 70k - 28k : 42k
2) Cadet is placed on temp contract with EZY
3) EZY pay CTC 28k
4) cadet pays EZY 28k back.

I won't hold my breath.

[Tonka Toy]

You may want to have a chat with the SFO. They may want to have a chat with you.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Now it's too late, Pandora's box is wide open and there is little to no leverage during a deep recession to change anything regarding these shameful 17th century working conditions. And I'm afraid it will only get worse....

Bull**** Doug. Have you seen the demographic of pilot demand versus predicted supply over the next 10 years? This industry is always cyclic, and an upturn will follow this particularly brutal recession in due course, as surely as day follows night. Supply outstrips demand for now, but that situation will reverse, and soon too. When it does, airlines will need to rethink their terms and conditions in order to attract and keep the best people. It's only seniority lists that creates dead wood, career first officers and an enormous logjam of other union-protected flotsam to gum up the works. The sooner the BA's and Aer Linguses of this world vanish from the scene, so much the better.

That in turn will free up the venture capitol needed to fund new airlines and equipment that provide real service and value for money, jobs, profits and futures rather than the surly, menopausal frumps at BA who seem maniacally determined to have "Christmas Strike of '09" as their valediction. Good riddance to them.

Don't be such a Cassandra, Doug. Better days will come. Happy Holidays to you.