RYANAIR thoughts
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bongle bear - "if balpa recognition costs 1 job,in your estimation the cost is too high".what about the captain fired in stn last week by ryanair union busting management for talking about a union.does that same logic apply?is that job loss equally of value,or was it all balpas fault for getting him fired.
pilots of ema beware slim and his missus abusing the sky are about to open a can of union busting whoop ass on you.they assume you have no brains of your own and that they should do your thinking for you.
pilots of ema beware slim and his missus abusing the sky are about to open a can of union busting whoop ass on you.they assume you have no brains of your own and that they should do your thinking for you.
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Repa
I have read your post on here carefully, and find you a committed BALPA member, for which I applaud your fortitude.
BUT
You are so convinced in the right of your cause that you have lost sight of the big picture, and whose lives you will be seriously effecting.
Every person who does not agree with you is labled a management stooge, but I can see here that we are takling real people, something you are not prepared to accept.
When your self interest effects the lives / jobs of your colleagues, that is the time when you should step back and re-evaluate your goals.
The job market is so poor at the moment and will be for at least a year, and there are many pilots willing to take your jobs.
Should you wish to put your job and many others at risk for little or no positive return then I think at your next medical you should tell the doctor that you have a mental disorder.
You may think that calling the bluff of RYR will result in you and the BALPA members winning the day, I am sorry to say that from the outside looking in that you do not have a hope in winning, and you will be responsible for loosing jobs.
Like Day_Dreamer stated the Loss of even one job is too high a price to pay.
You have not looked into what would happen to the hundreds of lives which would be touched by one base closure, only looking at "ME" factor !!!
Its time to consider the "US" side including Famillies, Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew and Ground Staff.
I have read your post on here carefully, and find you a committed BALPA member, for which I applaud your fortitude.
BUT
You are so convinced in the right of your cause that you have lost sight of the big picture, and whose lives you will be seriously effecting.
Every person who does not agree with you is labled a management stooge, but I can see here that we are takling real people, something you are not prepared to accept.
When your self interest effects the lives / jobs of your colleagues, that is the time when you should step back and re-evaluate your goals.
The job market is so poor at the moment and will be for at least a year, and there are many pilots willing to take your jobs.
Should you wish to put your job and many others at risk for little or no positive return then I think at your next medical you should tell the doctor that you have a mental disorder.
You may think that calling the bluff of RYR will result in you and the BALPA members winning the day, I am sorry to say that from the outside looking in that you do not have a hope in winning, and you will be responsible for loosing jobs.
Like Day_Dreamer stated the Loss of even one job is too high a price to pay.
You have not looked into what would happen to the hundreds of lives which would be touched by one base closure, only looking at "ME" factor !!!
Its time to consider the "US" side including Famillies, Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew and Ground Staff.
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I have only seen one party making intimidatory memos and setting out rumours across the network through the various channels. So true to form who do you think it likely is?
I can say that Ryanair management are here on PPRUNE to stir the pot. It's all about making the pilots feel isolated and as individuals and a minority no matter what your beliefs or way of thinking. Split and all is won for management.
Divide and conquer. Divide and conquer and implement fear. It is the only way Ryanair management know how to play. Individuals need to be able to see this surely? Management must be rubbing their hands in glee at seeing these tactics work. Please wake up and realise what these types of tactics are for, what and how they are used. They want to set pilots against each other in such a way as when there is no cohesion and turning on each other as it is easier to spilt a group and do what their agenda is. Simple warfare tactics is that.
Sorry but I think you have to see this for what it is. Collectively and as one is the only way this whole situation and mess will be sorted out.
I can say that Ryanair management are here on PPRUNE to stir the pot. It's all about making the pilots feel isolated and as individuals and a minority no matter what your beliefs or way of thinking. Split and all is won for management.
Divide and conquer. Divide and conquer and implement fear. It is the only way Ryanair management know how to play. Individuals need to be able to see this surely? Management must be rubbing their hands in glee at seeing these tactics work. Please wake up and realise what these types of tactics are for, what and how they are used. They want to set pilots against each other in such a way as when there is no cohesion and turning on each other as it is easier to spilt a group and do what their agenda is. Simple warfare tactics is that.
Sorry but I think you have to see this for what it is. Collectively and as one is the only way this whole situation and mess will be sorted out.
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geoff1248
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Guys
I am nothing more that one of your many passengers. A person who, thanks to Easy,Ryan,Jet,Bmi etc have been able to go to places that my parents could only dream of.
Are you really thinking of taking on Ryan at a time when their coffers are full of cash and they have plenty of trained staff ready and able to jump into your shoes. Your timing is as bad at the miners.
As a passenger let me say that none of the Loco airlines have much passenger loyalty. I will fly with whoever is the cheapest at the time. So if you disrupt Ryan for a while then I will just fly someone else. Doesn't matter whose name is on the plane.
If you really want to disrupt Ryan rather than its passengers (who you may not get back) then try working strictly to rule.
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Guys
I am nothing more that one of your many passengers. A person who, thanks to Easy,Ryan,Jet,Bmi etc have been able to go to places that my parents could only dream of.
Are you really thinking of taking on Ryan at a time when their coffers are full of cash and they have plenty of trained staff ready and able to jump into your shoes. Your timing is as bad at the miners.
As a passenger let me say that none of the Loco airlines have much passenger loyalty. I will fly with whoever is the cheapest at the time. So if you disrupt Ryan for a while then I will just fly someone else. Doesn't matter whose name is on the plane.
If you really want to disrupt Ryan rather than its passengers (who you may not get back) then try working strictly to rule.
the grim repa hi geoff - great argument for letting my career going down the potty.so you can have a cheap swan of to wherever.maybe you should give us a call if anything develops and we will make sure that your flight is not disturbed.you nearly had me going there,you joker you.now switch off the light and go back to bed luvvy.
You seem to think that MOL wont have an airline without you.
Without people like Geoff in York, buying tickets, you wont have a job.
Geoff makes a fair point. It is not a good time to throw your toys out of the pram and make demands.
Geoff makes a fair point that LoCo ticket buyers dont have brand loyalty.
Yet all you can do to a fair comment from a passenger is to be rude and derisory? Very professional! Yet with the same breath you demand dignity and respect?
I wont hold my breath waiting for the sound of the "pop" from your head coming out of your ass.
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All very interesting.....wish I had been unionised when I lost my job, maybe a little compensation might have come my way....however, when is this "vote" to take place? Can you simply not vote yes/no and get on with the outcome? As it is, you guys can open up thread after thread on these FR issues and still NOTHING will get resolved! Vote, and move on. Still all very enjoyable reading.........but pointless
The Future of Ryanair?
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grim repa
bongle bear - "if balpa recognition costs 1 job,in your estimation the cost is too high".what about the captain fired in stn last week by ryanair union busting management for talking about a union.does that same logic apply?is that job loss equally of value,or was it all balpas fault for getting him fired.
pilots of ema beware slim and his missus abusing the sky are about to open a can of union busting whoop ass on you.they assume you have no brains of your own and that they should do your thinking for you.
What Slim, in my opinion, is trying to do is point out that hardly anyone wants BALPA anywhere near EMA or EMT, therefore not even letting it get to the point where the 10% of BALPA members could push this vote through.
It would now appear that BALPA don't want to listen to this, as they have made clear in email responses.
Terry - or your stand in; because you're on your holidays (perfect timing, just like your whole campaign) - there have been over 93% of EMA and EMT based pilots saying they don't want BALPA - the other 7% didn't even say yes, those were abstain votes.
Please don't persue this at our base, through Captain L*****s work it has been made clear that as a base you're not wanted.
What are you going to do if I lose my job because you force your way in?
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What are you going to do if I lose my job because you force your way in?
How do you force your way in?
Another question: will you loose your job because the majority has voted for what is a constitutional right?
In the civilized world no one should loose their jobs because they democratically voted for a union with the intent of helping the company AND the employees grow together.
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Yes dannyalliga, no one should loose their jobs but they will do. Its time people realised this.
Its time to start thinking about the real possibility of loosing your job, your flightdeck friends, your cabin crew friends, the engineers who you call on for weight changes/problem solving - all loosing their jobs.
**I ask the question again - if you vote yes and end up loosing your job, will you still say Balpa is the answer???**
One final point, Grim, i usually find your posts well thought out and informative even though we are of differing opinions. However of late they have unfortunately become a mass of impolite, aggressive and immature name calling.
Shame on you!!
Its time to start thinking about the real possibility of loosing your job, your flightdeck friends, your cabin crew friends, the engineers who you call on for weight changes/problem solving - all loosing their jobs.
**I ask the question again - if you vote yes and end up loosing your job, will you still say Balpa is the answer???**
One final point, Grim, i usually find your posts well thought out and informative even though we are of differing opinions. However of late they have unfortunately become a mass of impolite, aggressive and immature name calling.
Shame on you!!
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@ bonglebear
I am not commenting about whether you or anybody should vote for or against BALPA, since I do not work for RYR, nor have anything to do with it. However, I am highly amazed how anybody can defend/rationalize sacking a employee for merely discussing joining a union (cabin or cockpit).
We are not talking about plans to kill MOL, sabotage airplanes or spy on company secrets, we are talking about discussing basic employee rights, the right to form a union.
I am sure anybody agrees that merely talking about it should not be a reason to dismiss anybody, but how on earth can it be his own fault then?
Is RYR allready the 1984 equivalent where merely speaking your mind gets you teminated (or at least your contract?). What's next, anybody heard complaining about a long working day gets sacked? Complaining about a stale (bought) sandwich gets dismissed? It is not his fault, it is the fault of the responsible manager who got him fired and therefore the company...
I do agree that it might not have been the smartest thing to do in a company like RYR, but landing on Omaha beach wasn't either. And was it your own fault if you got shot there?
Again, I do not work for RYR, nor fly with them or have close friends who do any of those two, but I am appalled that this 19th century practice is still in use and that there are people who, with a crazy logic, do condone it..
I am not commenting about whether you or anybody should vote for or against BALPA, since I do not work for RYR, nor have anything to do with it. However, I am highly amazed how anybody can defend/rationalize sacking a employee for merely discussing joining a union (cabin or cockpit).
We are not talking about plans to kill MOL, sabotage airplanes or spy on company secrets, we are talking about discussing basic employee rights, the right to form a union.
I am sure anybody agrees that merely talking about it should not be a reason to dismiss anybody, but how on earth can it be his own fault then?
Is RYR allready the 1984 equivalent where merely speaking your mind gets you teminated (or at least your contract?). What's next, anybody heard complaining about a long working day gets sacked? Complaining about a stale (bought) sandwich gets dismissed? It is not his fault, it is the fault of the responsible manager who got him fired and therefore the company...
I do agree that it might not have been the smartest thing to do in a company like RYR, but landing on Omaha beach wasn't either. And was it your own fault if you got shot there?
Again, I do not work for RYR, nor fly with them or have close friends who do any of those two, but I am appalled that this 19th century practice is still in use and that there are people who, with a crazy logic, do condone it..
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Mr Stranger
Whilst the guy's dismissal was unfortunate there is always more to it than meets the eye: think what you see of the iceberg vs what is below the waterline.
He also had BALPA representation: lot of good that did him!!!
Mr Wake Turbulence,
We work for this company because apart from a couple of small issues it is a good place to be: well paid, secure, don't get messed around with our rosters, new equipment, stacks of leave etc.
What you have here are maybe 6 hardcore whingers out of over 2000 pilots: the whingers who are trumpeting the cause of unionisation have, in general, been with the company a long time.
They haven't had, they don't have, nor will have, a snowball's chance of getting BALPA or any ALPA recognition, but even though they don't like the place, they don't quit and join an airline which has the "dignity,respect and redundancies" they crave.
The vast majority, most who are a silent majority, go to work (employee ) do their jobs very well, go home at the end of every day ( no night stops you see) and pick up a not insubstantial pay check at the end of the month and a further sector payment in the middle of the month.
Whilst the guy's dismissal was unfortunate there is always more to it than meets the eye: think what you see of the iceberg vs what is below the waterline.
He also had BALPA representation: lot of good that did him!!!
Mr Wake Turbulence,
We work for this company because apart from a couple of small issues it is a good place to be: well paid, secure, don't get messed around with our rosters, new equipment, stacks of leave etc.
What you have here are maybe 6 hardcore whingers out of over 2000 pilots: the whingers who are trumpeting the cause of unionisation have, in general, been with the company a long time.
They haven't had, they don't have, nor will have, a snowball's chance of getting BALPA or any ALPA recognition, but even though they don't like the place, they don't quit and join an airline which has the "dignity,respect and redundancies" they crave.
The vast majority, most who are a silent majority, go to work (employee ) do their jobs very well, go home at the end of every day ( no night stops you see) and pick up a not insubstantial pay check at the end of the month and a further sector payment in the middle of the month.
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What you have here are maybe 6 hardcore whingers out of over 2000 pilots
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@The Real Slim Shady
There might be more to his dismissal then is know to me or to most boardmembers, however, that still does not mean that being fired for promoting an union means you getting fired is your own fault, as some of the esteemed members of this board seem to think. And since I do not know at what stage he currently is in his dismissal (is he going to court, etc) I cannot allready tell if BALPA is benificial to him or not. But that wasn't the point of my post, since I am not in the position to talk about BALPA or it's use. (being neither employed by RYR or in the UK)
There might be more to his dismissal then is know to me or to most boardmembers, however, that still does not mean that being fired for promoting an union means you getting fired is your own fault, as some of the esteemed members of this board seem to think. And since I do not know at what stage he currently is in his dismissal (is he going to court, etc) I cannot allready tell if BALPA is benificial to him or not. But that wasn't the point of my post, since I am not in the position to talk about BALPA or it's use. (being neither employed by RYR or in the UK)
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Totally right tocamak,
If the majority don't support it why not let it go to a free, confidential vote (not like a named email where individuals can be picked out for no matter what their beliefs are? Democracy Ryanair style just like Iran and N. Korea!) and see what the outcome is? Democracy rules..
To try and deny that right by TWISTING the TRUTH for ones own argument or agenda which we have all established, of the laws and acts in statute which does represent natural justice is alarming and very disappointing.
I'm sure colleagues across the flight deck and in the Crewroom will appreciate the attempt to misrepresent facts for some sort of motivation?
If the motivation and argument is job security would it not be better to stand together as a large group of pilots to maintain your job? There is 197 A/C to crew and that won't change either way.
If the said individual does believe the base will vote one way then why not let pilots vote in a free, confidential ballot? To try and deny that right with misleading and FALSE arguments is simply disgusting!
If the majority don't support it why not let it go to a free, confidential vote (not like a named email where individuals can be picked out for no matter what their beliefs are? Democracy Ryanair style just like Iran and N. Korea!) and see what the outcome is? Democracy rules..
To try and deny that right by TWISTING the TRUTH for ones own argument or agenda which we have all established, of the laws and acts in statute which does represent natural justice is alarming and very disappointing.
I'm sure colleagues across the flight deck and in the Crewroom will appreciate the attempt to misrepresent facts for some sort of motivation?
If the motivation and argument is job security would it not be better to stand together as a large group of pilots to maintain your job? There is 197 A/C to crew and that won't change either way.
If the said individual does believe the base will vote one way then why not let pilots vote in a free, confidential ballot? To try and deny that right with misleading and FALSE arguments is simply disgusting!
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It's simple really
It is ILLEGAL to intimidate employees who wish to form a union
It is ILLEGAL to fire people for talking about wanting to join a union
Ryanair management are intimidating you into not signing up for union recognition because they do not wish to negotiate - they prefer to impose their will on their employees.
Such practices were made illegal after WW2 by the first Labour Government.
Management CANNOT just dismiss employees for joining a union. BALPA would fight such dismissal for very expensive employee compensation.
IF you are unionised you always have ultimate power - YOU CAN STRIKE, YOU CAN GROUND THE AIRLINE, Doing this is agony to management, shareholders and the bullies like O'Leary. That of course is what he is frightened of.
Wake up and realise why you must be strong, where would we be be if in the Battle of Britain pilots had said 'Oh I don't want to go up flying today in case somebody takes a shot at me' - Living under the Nazis is where we'd be...
If you believe in democracy rather than martial law you need a union. Sure BALPA isn't perfect, but it's what we've got and it's the only thing that protects those of us who work in other airlines from the kind of abominable and borderline illegal practices that your management exhibit.
Incidentally why oh why isn't somebody talking to the press about this employee intimidation - after all the company has put its threats in writing and they are ILLEGAL!!
Desk-pilot
It is ILLEGAL to fire people for talking about wanting to join a union
Ryanair management are intimidating you into not signing up for union recognition because they do not wish to negotiate - they prefer to impose their will on their employees.
Such practices were made illegal after WW2 by the first Labour Government.
Management CANNOT just dismiss employees for joining a union. BALPA would fight such dismissal for very expensive employee compensation.
IF you are unionised you always have ultimate power - YOU CAN STRIKE, YOU CAN GROUND THE AIRLINE, Doing this is agony to management, shareholders and the bullies like O'Leary. That of course is what he is frightened of.
Wake up and realise why you must be strong, where would we be be if in the Battle of Britain pilots had said 'Oh I don't want to go up flying today in case somebody takes a shot at me' - Living under the Nazis is where we'd be...
If you believe in democracy rather than martial law you need a union. Sure BALPA isn't perfect, but it's what we've got and it's the only thing that protects those of us who work in other airlines from the kind of abominable and borderline illegal practices that your management exhibit.
Incidentally why oh why isn't somebody talking to the press about this employee intimidation - after all the company has put its threats in writing and they are ILLEGAL!!
Desk-pilot
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OK DeskPilot and alibaba.
Put your money where your mouths are ad come out, up front, real names and vote for BALPA.
Get BALPA in at your base: fight for it.
Then when your base is closed get BALPA to fight your corner at Tribunal.
2 years later you might get £60K in compensation: don't think Wee Willy's mob (BALPA airline), or the Bearded Wonder's mob (BALPA airline) or Deutsch BMI (BALPA airline) will be beating a path to your doors with job offers.
Can't see the BALPA hierarchy losing much sleep about making their mortgage payments!!
BALPA are in this for the politics: if they actually gave a monkeys about the welfare of the pilots ( cabin crew, engineers and ground staff) at any FR base in the UK, they would stop right now and focus their attentions on helping out the pilots of BA, VS , bmi and any other outfit unfortunate enough to have to deal with them.
Put your money where your mouths are ad come out, up front, real names and vote for BALPA.
Get BALPA in at your base: fight for it.
Then when your base is closed get BALPA to fight your corner at Tribunal.
2 years later you might get £60K in compensation: don't think Wee Willy's mob (BALPA airline), or the Bearded Wonder's mob (BALPA airline) or Deutsch BMI (BALPA airline) will be beating a path to your doors with job offers.
Can't see the BALPA hierarchy losing much sleep about making their mortgage payments!!
BALPA are in this for the politics: if they actually gave a monkeys about the welfare of the pilots ( cabin crew, engineers and ground staff) at any FR base in the UK, they would stop right now and focus their attentions on helping out the pilots of BA, VS , bmi and any other outfit unfortunate enough to have to deal with them.
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Sorry desk pilot, but that is non-sequitur.
where does RAF pilots in the battle of Britain fit in to unionization?
your argument could equally be transposed, that if the RAF was unionized, the flight crews could have taken an elected position not to fly due to the personal risk.
Either way, it is a pointless analogy as military service personnel are not unionized and failure to act under command has it repercussions. Military service under a declaration of war is not comparable to commercial operations.
Democracy relates to a methodology of governance, not a commercial operation that exists to make a profit.
where does RAF pilots in the battle of Britain fit in to unionization?
your argument could equally be transposed, that if the RAF was unionized, the flight crews could have taken an elected position not to fly due to the personal risk.
Either way, it is a pointless analogy as military service personnel are not unionized and failure to act under command has it repercussions. Military service under a declaration of war is not comparable to commercial operations.
Democracy relates to a methodology of governance, not a commercial operation that exists to make a profit.
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Democracy relates to a methodology of governance, not a commercial operation that exists to make a profit.
Aristotle stated; "But one factor of liberty is to govern and be governed in turn; for the popular principle of justice is to have equality according to number, not worth, and if this is the principle of justice prevailing, the multitude must of necessity be sovereign and the decision of the majority must be final and must constitute justice"
This is describing what social justice is about and how our laws are constructed and how we live in most western European nations. So if it is to be ruled with a form of democracy or live in a form of tyranny and autocracy I know as a free thinking person what I will choose. By trying to deny people the right to vote by MISLEADING people. The email and people are acting in benefiting tyranny and against democracy. SIMPLE.. Any arguments the person may have had have been undermined simply by the act of deceit.
197 A/C have to be crewed and need engineers so if aircraft get moved they are still going to have to staffed. Ryanair have a legal obligation under EU, UK and most other EU countries law to offer you alternative positions or arrangements in these other bases. You might have to move but your job or position is still going to have to be maintained and that is without discussing if closing a base because of recognition (as you say will happen) is even legal. Will your position be maintained? Yes it will.
The time you are going to be at risk is when Ryanair ground aircraft and put you on unpaid leave in the winter period. Whether you like it or not it is coming your way over the coming year the same way it came to STN last winter. What are you going to do about that with the company becoming more and more seasonal? FO's with years of experience are now being paid less than London Tube drivers! I'll let you work out why that it is..
I have seen a number of BRK FO's struggling to make bill payments because of a lack of flying never mind if the said individual gets injured. Just a question; Will you pay his or her bills once the winter down happens or he breaks a leg? These individuals have on or around £100,000 of debt but are struggling to make loan repayments from flight training. One had to declare himself bankrupt. Just a normal guy who came unstuck due to not flying. Another received multiple months of forced A/L and had to move out of his apartment as he couldn't afford to live. Is that what you call full time employment? I call that seasonal work likened to teenagers working over the summer holidays with the added bonus of having more debt than they know what to do with. Doesn't matter though, at least there are some jobs in Val Thoren in the winter!
The amount of movements has to be maintained in these airports. W patterns will not maintain these movements numbers. The UK market is the largest market and nearly half of all movements are in or out of the UK. If you think Fidelity Investments and Merrill Lynch are going to let DOB, EW and whatever DOB calls PB get away with risking that sort of financial income, then you are naive at best. This is all about the perception of power but shareholders will not let the said individuals step to far including MOL himself in trying to maintain an unsustainable ideology.
In maintaining these movements comes local jobs with these bases. The local development funds and tourism councils that supply Ryanair with money either through direct funding or through proxy's such as the airports, demand job creation and stability. Ryanair are going to find it very difficult to apply multiple closures while trying to stave off airport and development fund contracts as well as the contracts of service with the service providers. Multiple breaches of contract with many, many legal challenges before we even get to workers legal challenges.
Then we get to the local, national governments as well as the European Union. Many politicians whether senior national or local will have many things to say about such action being directed at their continuances workers because of a group of pilots trying to obtain union recognition for collective bargaining and the freedom to association. If you think the UK government will also have nothing to say about it then you would be wrong. Ryanair management can do what it wants with its leaser’s aeroplanes but it can't flout the law while doing so! The various branches of governments have considerable amounts of power to apply pressure as HMRC have been doing. Ryanair management has already had various brushes with the EU about other matters and LOST every time such as the Walloon government EU case. Ryanair is less likely to try and go to war with them on freedom of association and collective bargaining rights as the law is very clear on these subjects. They just rely on the perception to everyone no matter whom they are that they will. In other words all Ryanair managers have to do is sell you the aroma of invincibility when in very real terms they are not.
All these things without the workers applying the pressure of collective organisation on the company themselves which can bring the company to it knees if so desired. This is not the way forward though as has been said many times. Partnership is what is required.
PART TIME SEASONAL CONTRACTS or FULL TIME EMPLOYMENT? Your choice but only if colleagues give you that choice..
