On strike with Ryanair!
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Most of the guys I fly with have said they have no intention of signing the petition and quite a few have removed their names. these are the guys who deserve a pat on the back for using their own brains to work out what is best for them , and why shouldn't they~!!!!!!!!!
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Come, gentle bombs.
Your post is sufficiently ambiguous
D O Guerrero's concise and clear-headed argument demolishes in one expertly constructed post, the nonsense advanced by those outside Ryanair who feel sufficiently threatened by our ongoing success, to offer up the sort of ill-considered, feather-headed bunkum that goes on in every related thread herein.
There are a couple of truths that need to be remembered. First of all, the reality of working for Ryanair is often at variance with the external perception of it. The reason for this is, broadly speaking, a combination of projecting the cabin experience, admittedly less than pleasant on occasion, into the cockpit environment, and professional jealousy.
As to the former, that negative perception is entirely wrong when it comes to our pilots. Ryanair pilots are among the most talented on earth, for the best of reasons since our operation demands it. One actually needs to know how to fly in Ryanair. Short runways, a multitude of non-precision approaches and the vagaries of the European winter demand it. Anyone who criticises cadet first officers for selling their souls to the devil, misses the most important half of their stories. We only the take the best of them, because experience has taught us that only the best of them will survive the demands of the training department, something that ALL Ryanair cadet pilots should be extremely proud of.
As to the latter, nobody like change. The most shrill of those who object to us at Ryanair are those with a hankering for the good old, bad old days when flying was the purview of those born among the higher branches of Europe's social tree. Similarly, they hunger for the days when only the wealthy could afford to fly. Paying £700 for a return flight from Dublin to London did lend itself to a higher class of person occupying our high-speed metal tubes, didn't it, but is it right that the sort of quality of life enhancement and affirmation that comes from readily accessible flying should be denied the majority? We don't think so. Neither do the 70 million passengers who will fly with us this year. We've made a great deal of money proving that point and created opportunity and employment for thousands in doing so.
There is, of course, a rather more sinister force at work, when addressing the perplexing question of just why it is that Ryanair attracts such negative attention here. There exists deep within the collective psyche of the British, a deep and abiding resentment of any Irish success. The fact that Ryanair is, proudly and loudly, and IRISH airline, rankles deep within the English soul, and gives voice to the lungs of that most peculiarly English of phenomena, vultures masquerading as birds of paradise.
Speaking of vultures, BLAPA currently seek to wave their prettiest of feathers in our face. Moreover, they appeal to those (almost always British) pilots who lack the inherent self-confidence to manage their own lives without some external, vaguely consoling force, inserting a suppository of "dignity and respect"™© intra-rectally. Dignity and respect comes from how one conducts one's own self. If it doesn't exist in an individual in the first place, no amount of BLAPA seduction will ever succeed in delivering it.
Is Ryanair perfect? No, it isn't. Will BLAPA or the Irish Polyester Pygmy succeed in making it more perfect? Certainly not. Those, like I, who have been around long enough to know that unions seek to serve one principal master at the expense of all the others, will be able to entertain you all with fireside chats on the subject. You will find BLAPA are very adept at setting up standing orders and direct debit authorisations for your subscription fees of £1000 yearly, but grow strangely hard of hearing thereafter.
When deciding what to do with your hard-earned salaries, ladies and gentlemen of Ryanair, you may care to remember the hilarious spectacle, and dazzling fiesta of irony, reflected in the BLAPA staff members threatening to go on strike, lest their final salary pension schemes were guaranteed!
GMB organiser Dave Kent accused Balpa of a "disgraceful case of hypocrisy".
Leo,I normally admire and occasionally buy into your persuasive and articulate defence(s) of Ryanair.I have been in this industry a long time (airline pilot) and would completely agree with the rationale that Ryanair has a high level of operational integrity backed up by their safety record.They/you are obviously not mugs.
Also,I semi-reluctantly can see some of your points ref Balpa;I have been in the union all my career but there have been times when the love affair from my side was definitely lukewarm.However,I find it truly astonishing that you invoke Irish history and British resentment over Ryanair's financial success as a reason for continued criticism of Ryanair.That point is totally fatuous and I am surprised that you have made it given your obvious intelligence.
b/rgds
Also,I semi-reluctantly can see some of your points ref Balpa;I have been in the union all my career but there have been times when the love affair from my side was definitely lukewarm.However,I find it truly astonishing that you invoke Irish history and British resentment over Ryanair's financial success as a reason for continued criticism of Ryanair.That point is totally fatuous and I am surprised that you have made it given your obvious intelligence.
b/rgds
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Leo, despite my obvious admiration for your very complimentary comments regarding my posts... I have to say I don't quite agree with everything! My opinion of the Irish as a nation plays absolutely no part in what I think of Ryanair. And yes I am British...
And I should just say that just because I admire the achievements of the company as well as what it has given to me, it doesn't necessarily follow that I am opposed to BALPA and their aims. My gripe is with opiniated has-beens who feel that people like me shouldn't be in the club...
And I should just say that just because I admire the achievements of the company as well as what it has given to me, it doesn't necessarily follow that I am opposed to BALPA and their aims. My gripe is with opiniated has-beens who feel that people like me shouldn't be in the club...
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I note Leo Hairy Nazi's sense of irony relating to BALPA pension provision, noting the irony that he chooses to criticise the organisation for having a dispute with it's employees through their union.
The point is BALPA employees have a mechanism through which they can make their feelings to their employer plain, up to and including strike action, something that Ryanair pilots don't currently enjoy...
...a situation individuals such as Leo Hairy Nazi are fighting tooth and nail to continue. Go figure.
Barden
PS I note also that LHN and acolytes continue to suggest BALPA membership costs £1000/year. Ignoring tax relief available for a minute, I suspect it does for a lucky few - their BASIC salaries, the amount they are paid before sector pay, hourly allowances and overtime, must be over £100,000 per annum - in the UK at least, the only pilots who are in this fortunate situation are the lucky few of the most senior pilots for airlines that have long recoginsed BALPA, namely BA, Virgin and some of the better charter operators, certainly not anyone in FR!
The point is BALPA employees have a mechanism through which they can make their feelings to their employer plain, up to and including strike action, something that Ryanair pilots don't currently enjoy...
...a situation individuals such as Leo Hairy Nazi are fighting tooth and nail to continue. Go figure.
Barden
PS I note also that LHN and acolytes continue to suggest BALPA membership costs £1000/year. Ignoring tax relief available for a minute, I suspect it does for a lucky few - their BASIC salaries, the amount they are paid before sector pay, hourly allowances and overtime, must be over £100,000 per annum - in the UK at least, the only pilots who are in this fortunate situation are the lucky few of the most senior pilots for airlines that have long recoginsed BALPA, namely BA, Virgin and some of the better charter operators, certainly not anyone in FR!
Last edited by Barden; 14th Jun 2009 at 14:15.
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Pilot999
Anyone who used this to defend Ryanairs disatrous fuel hedging strategy which even MOL admitted was disatrous.
Dont forget that he has hedged at higher price than most but only for a short period, while others have heded at a lower price than us but for a much longer perid, where as we will be unhedged at the lower price, sounds good to me. I'll still be at ryanair long after we've acquired Air lingus. and seen the biigies go bust!!!!!!!!
A brilliant guy, I'm glad he's my boss and not yours.
The man's a genius. thank god we've got him.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you are not one of the management or their associated "union busters" that come on here to try and decieve and pretend its something different to what it is. Maybe just one of the monority of line pilots who are happy to align themselves with the dictatorial madness of the whitehouse as long as they do OK out of it.
They usually come on in bunches. "perhaps we should follow the IAA way and go through the courts" i.e try and turn people away from formal recognition.
"We have ascertained that BALPA is not the answer, so what is the answer" Try and disuade the undecided minority. Steer them away from genuine collective arrangements at any cost. The majority, either way have already decided.
I know for fact that most of the guys I fly with support the campaign to end the erosions and bring about a fair, open and honest culture.
I also know that contrary to your alleged few friends de-registering, the petition numbers are increasing weekly.
I am not telling you what your ideology should be, but non are not so stupid as to realise that people with vested interests populate these forums, with the only objective - to steer people away from the rights and formal recognition.
If you don't like BALPA don't vote, If you want change then vote.
Time will tell Pilot999 - but we are not writing threatening memos, nor do we feel threatened.
Leo HC - What was it you called me before a couple of months back "flactulance Fred".
As an LTC, even though the FR training standard is good, I do not agree with you that only the best get cadets get into Ryanair.
True only those that make the grade will survive, but the initial pre-requisite is "do you have a licence", "can you get the cash for rating", "can you pass the sim check". If the answer is Yes Yes and Yes you are in, especially with credit markets dry. I know as I was there at the turn of the century.
Last edited by Fightback Fred; 14th Jun 2009 at 16:01.
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Rednex:
You've misunderstood my point, which was BALPA subs are only paid on basic pay, not emoluments or flight pay etc, so for many FR pilots their BALPA subs are a fraction of the £1000 pa oft quoted by LHN & friends. Are you telling me any line or training pilot's basic salary (the amount they get paid if for example they are unable to work for a month if they are sick or have max'ed out on hours 
) is anywhere near £100k pro rata?
As a point of information, in my airline many line pilots comfortably exceed £125,000 pa with flight pay and allowances factored in and those who chose to work hard and have picked up training qualifications earn nearer £200k. Both enjoy substantial pension provision and don't have to lose too much sleep about how they'd manage if they were unable to fly due to health issues. We are most definately a BALPA airline.
Myself, I chose to fly my roster and nothing more. I do this because I want to and because I can.
Anyway, enough of the willy waving. Good luck to all in FR who no longer want to be treated as the hired helps.
Barden
Barden, If your a LTC, TRI or TRE You will easily make over £100,000 a year. Out TREs are on around £125,000. Ya most senior off....Virgin pay, don't make me laugh.
) is anywhere near £100k pro rata?As a point of information, in my airline many line pilots comfortably exceed £125,000 pa with flight pay and allowances factored in and those who chose to work hard and have picked up training qualifications earn nearer £200k. Both enjoy substantial pension provision and don't have to lose too much sleep about how they'd manage if they were unable to fly due to health issues. We are most definately a BALPA airline.
Myself, I chose to fly my roster and nothing more. I do this because I want to and because I can.
Anyway, enough of the willy waving. Good luck to all in FR who no longer want to be treated as the hired helps.
Barden
Last edited by Barden; 14th Jun 2009 at 16:23.
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Fightback Fred
You hit the nail on the head only once in your last post and i quote "and pass the simulator".
The Sim check looks for the the crew member rather than just the handling skills, and over the last couple of years I have seen on average only 10 to 25% who attend the interviews pass.
It may once have been "can you pay ? Your In" but today the rules have changed and the crop of cadets although reduced through the credit crunch are of a very high standard.
How I know is not for this forum !!
To reach the grade and pass onto line flying the standards set within RYR are high, somewhat higher than many companies, due to the diversity of those employed, several of whom are not native English speakers.
BALPA are today trying to break into Ryanair and other non unionised airlines, not as may be assumed for the good of the employees but for the balance sheets of BALPA itself. (Look at their company cars and pension schemes which the membership pay for)
However BALPA is the only game in town for U.K. based airlines, but RYR is not U.K. based neither do they operate G-registered aircraft.
The employer therefore has no obligation to accept their dealings.
BALPA has asked their BA pilots to reduce their pay by up to £200 per week to avoid redundancies. (Who's T&C's are being eroded now)
Yet RYR are recruiting.
If those of you think a strike will make your point and improve things only have to look at Old King Coal and the miners strike.
Now there is only a shadow of the former UK coal industry.
You may cause some chaos for while but, remember that bills mortgages etc must be paid, and with no income and ultimately no job how long can you survive on your principles.
If our industry is to survive this recession then cost cuts should be negotiated based upon a fixed date for any reductions in the T & C's to be re-instated.
You hit the nail on the head only once in your last post and i quote "and pass the simulator".
The Sim check looks for the the crew member rather than just the handling skills, and over the last couple of years I have seen on average only 10 to 25% who attend the interviews pass.
It may once have been "can you pay ? Your In" but today the rules have changed and the crop of cadets although reduced through the credit crunch are of a very high standard.
How I know is not for this forum !!
To reach the grade and pass onto line flying the standards set within RYR are high, somewhat higher than many companies, due to the diversity of those employed, several of whom are not native English speakers.
BALPA are today trying to break into Ryanair and other non unionised airlines, not as may be assumed for the good of the employees but for the balance sheets of BALPA itself. (Look at their company cars and pension schemes which the membership pay for)
However BALPA is the only game in town for U.K. based airlines, but RYR is not U.K. based neither do they operate G-registered aircraft.
The employer therefore has no obligation to accept their dealings.
BALPA has asked their BA pilots to reduce their pay by up to £200 per week to avoid redundancies. (Who's T&C's are being eroded now)
Yet RYR are recruiting.
If those of you think a strike will make your point and improve things only have to look at Old King Coal and the miners strike.
Now there is only a shadow of the former UK coal industry.
You may cause some chaos for while but, remember that bills mortgages etc must be paid, and with no income and ultimately no job how long can you survive on your principles.
If our industry is to survive this recession then cost cuts should be negotiated based upon a fixed date for any reductions in the T & C's to be re-instated.
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DD:
Forget aircraft states of registration for a moment. In fact forget aircraft. Ryanair employs a substantial number of individuals in the UK, therefore is subject to UK employment law, which provides for statuary union recognition if necessary.
Also, you mention BALPA company cars. By pure consistence, I've just read on their website that they're selling one. An 8 year old Vauxhall Astra with an ignition problem if you're interested
RYR is not U.K. based neither do they operate G-registered aircraft.
The employer therefore has no obligation to accept their [BALPA's] dealings.
The employer therefore has no obligation to accept their [BALPA's] dealings.
Also, you mention BALPA company cars. By pure consistence, I've just read on their website that they're selling one. An 8 year old Vauxhall Astra with an ignition problem if you're interested
Last edited by Barden; 14th Jun 2009 at 17:31.
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Vexed: DD's comment which you quoted is spot on. That is exactly what is happening in at least one major UK airline right now, that is to say a small amount of non-pensionable money is been forfeited by mutual consent for a defined period, after which without further agreement the status quo will return. This is how a mature management & union can deal with a complex issue in these difficult times.
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Daydreamer.
I will have to accept your point on the actual sim check as I am not privvy to it. However I do recall a certain man who now works at Brookfield, being on his phone as I walked through the door, spending most of the interview on the phone, then simply asking me "have you got the money".
Who is saying daydreamer anything about a strike??
Pilots just want to play an active part in meaningful negotitations (and don't bother saying we have ERC's, we all know the reality ), to do their jobs and to have their terms left alone.
The British Airline pilots ASSOCIATION, is needed as a professional body, because that is not happening, despite employment laws. People are subject to intimidatory practices, and your contract means squat. Your terms are simply what FR decide they will give you this month, regardless of contracts. They have removed plenty of contracted conditions at will. It is only this I believe many pilots seek to end.
Of course if MOL insists on unreleting hardball, then every option, (of which today there are non), should be thought through.
I will have to accept your point on the actual sim check as I am not privvy to it. However I do recall a certain man who now works at Brookfield, being on his phone as I walked through the door, spending most of the interview on the phone, then simply asking me "have you got the money".
If those of you think a strike will make your point and improve things only have to look at Old King Coal and the miners strike.
Pilots just want to play an active part in meaningful negotitations (and don't bother saying we have ERC's, we all know the reality ), to do their jobs and to have their terms left alone.
The British Airline pilots ASSOCIATION, is needed as a professional body, because that is not happening, despite employment laws. People are subject to intimidatory practices, and your contract means squat. Your terms are simply what FR decide they will give you this month, regardless of contracts. They have removed plenty of contracted conditions at will. It is only this I believe many pilots seek to end.
Of course if MOL insists on unreleting hardball, then every option, (of which today there are non), should be thought through.
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Barden
Yes they have to allow a Union.
But they do not have to do anything about it, or negotiate.
They can listen hold meetings and still do nothing.
Then what have you got 1% of salary being paid out for a toothless tiger.
FBF
The title of this thread is "On strike with Ryanair"
Yes they have to allow a Union.
But they do not have to do anything about it, or negotiate.
They can listen hold meetings and still do nothing.
Then what have you got 1% of salary being paid out for a toothless tiger.
FBF
The title of this thread is "On strike with Ryanair"
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BALPA has asked their BA pilots to reduce their pay by up to £200 per week to avoid redundancies
LHC, up to the bit of tosh:
There is, of course, a rather more sinister force at work, when addressing the perplexing question of just why it is that Ryanair attracts such negative attention here. There exists deep within the collective psyche of the British, a deep and abiding resentment of any Irish success.
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Daydreamer said:
BALPA has asked their BA pilots to reduce their pay by up to £200 per week to avoid redundancies. (Who's T&C's are being eroded now)
Note the above. Balpa has ASKED their pilots to consider this. It will be voted on in a democratic manner. As an aside, I'm a ryan F/O and I would gladly take a BA F/Os remuneration minus 200 quid per week. that would mean I would get about 15,000 a year more than I'm on now.
I have been in the company several years and gone up several grades, but my money has not increased on penny since I was first on the line. Who's T&Cs are being eroded now? Mine, because we haven't got a union to protect them.
In the future I may try for a command. However, the grapevine tells me that Ryanair mangement, without any sort of vote or even mention to THEIR beloved ERCs, has absolutely slaughtered new captain salaries to a figure below what is was in the late 90s. Whose T&Cs are being eroded now? Mine and many other new captains, because we don't have a union.
Are you getting the picture? What is the point of getting a promotion if every year you get poorer? Ryanair pilot pay doesn't get anywhere near matching inflation, or keep up with our natural benchmark company Easy. Whose T&Cs are being eroded now? All of ours, despite the company banking hundreds and hundreds of millions of profit WE EARNED FOR THEM.
Because we haven't got a union. Ryanair pilots have a chance to sort this. Please take the chance, sign the petition, and stand with your colleagues.
BALPA has asked their BA pilots to reduce their pay by up to £200 per week to avoid redundancies. (Who's T&C's are being eroded now)
Note the above. Balpa has ASKED their pilots to consider this. It will be voted on in a democratic manner. As an aside, I'm a ryan F/O and I would gladly take a BA F/Os remuneration minus 200 quid per week. that would mean I would get about 15,000 a year more than I'm on now.
I have been in the company several years and gone up several grades, but my money has not increased on penny since I was first on the line. Who's T&Cs are being eroded now? Mine, because we haven't got a union to protect them.
In the future I may try for a command. However, the grapevine tells me that Ryanair mangement, without any sort of vote or even mention to THEIR beloved ERCs, has absolutely slaughtered new captain salaries to a figure below what is was in the late 90s. Whose T&Cs are being eroded now? Mine and many other new captains, because we don't have a union.
Are you getting the picture? What is the point of getting a promotion if every year you get poorer? Ryanair pilot pay doesn't get anywhere near matching inflation, or keep up with our natural benchmark company Easy. Whose T&Cs are being eroded now? All of ours, despite the company banking hundreds and hundreds of millions of profit WE EARNED FOR THEM.
Because we haven't got a union. Ryanair pilots have a chance to sort this. Please take the chance, sign the petition, and stand with your colleagues.
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I've never been in an airline which would function on scheudle if everyone worked to rule. That means do exactly what your are paid for and report at the times stipulated. Do all the tasks necessary during turnrounds and do not rush. Be methodical. If I understand rightly many airlines have gone to 45mins report, even when there is not dispatch service; i.e everything is do it yourself. I can not believe a flight, or series of flights can be prepared in full in 20 mins, travel to the a/c 5-10mins and prepare it for flight 15 mins. 1 hour was pushing it once they took away a flight prep service. Do guys really do it in 45mins? If you turn and sign on at -45mins I doubt many will depart on time. You would then have to have it in writing that you need to turn up early; or a discussion would be opened as to why your were always late on STD. Simple, 45mins is not enough. Strike is rarely needed to make a point. Doing what you are paid for does not need a union.
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RAT 5
Good points, and legal too.
Ssschmokin
You have 3 major problems !!
Ryanair Management :- who dont have to listen too or action any BALPA recomendations.
Brookfields Contract Pilots :- Differing T & C's from RYR contracts, How many will support any action which stops them being paid, or just effects RYR pilot's T & C's.
Foreign Based Pilots :- Who can work rotations from outside the UK without reducing the schedule significantly.
You may disrupt things for a while but not long term, 100% support for what you want is practically impossible, especially where people only get paid when they fly, and they like you have bills to pay.
Sitting on the sidelines I cannot see how you can force change when you are trying to get together such a diversified group of pilots.
RYR management appear to have the situation well in hand.
And there are many pilots cadet or otherwise waiting in the wings to take your job.
Good points, and legal too.
Ssschmokin
You have 3 major problems !!
Ryanair Management :- who dont have to listen too or action any BALPA recomendations.
Brookfields Contract Pilots :- Differing T & C's from RYR contracts, How many will support any action which stops them being paid, or just effects RYR pilot's T & C's.
Foreign Based Pilots :- Who can work rotations from outside the UK without reducing the schedule significantly.
You may disrupt things for a while but not long term, 100% support for what you want is practically impossible, especially where people only get paid when they fly, and they like you have bills to pay.
Sitting on the sidelines I cannot see how you can force change when you are trying to get together such a diversified group of pilots.
RYR management appear to have the situation well in hand.
And there are many pilots cadet or otherwise waiting in the wings to take your job.
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Fightback Fred - not sure I can agree entirely with your last comments. I know many people who have met the criteria you describe, yet still did not get a place as a cadet. Some of them were quite able too...