DHLAir wannabe? read this.
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What "ends" would they be? How can pilots concerned about fumes be trying to hurt a company?
Of the 5 people I know at DHL, each has mentioned the fumes issue. Do I know the "famous 5", I don't think so.
This is an issue throughout the industry, not just in your company. Did you read the report on it last year?
Certain engines do seem to cause problems, that is a known fact, certain people are affected by fumes worse than others, some people have had their health destoyed by this problem.
Sticking your head in the sand and blaming this on crews who are trying to do something about it is ludicrous. It isn't pilot's fault this is happening, but they are the ones who are hurt by it.
If you won't stick by your fellow crew members and try to get this thing fixed, then shame on you and I wouldn't bet on much sympathy if you get an "event" and have a bad reaction to it, which is sad.
Of the 5 people I know at DHL, each has mentioned the fumes issue. Do I know the "famous 5", I don't think so.
This is an issue throughout the industry, not just in your company. Did you read the report on it last year?
Certain engines do seem to cause problems, that is a known fact, certain people are affected by fumes worse than others, some people have had their health destoyed by this problem.
Sticking your head in the sand and blaming this on crews who are trying to do something about it is ludicrous. It isn't pilot's fault this is happening, but they are the ones who are hurt by it.
If you won't stick by your fellow crew members and try to get this thing fixed, then shame on you and I wouldn't bet on much sympathy if you get an "event" and have a bad reaction to it, which is sad.
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SQP1 - you are an embarassment to the many good people at DHL who are trying to get something done about potentially life threatening problems.
You live in a world of your own amongst your fellow pilots, I know of no-one else in the company with your flippant attitude to this huge problem.
I'm intrigued when you say that "the few are blowing it all out of proportion FOR THEIR OWN ENDS". I'll be one of those a you are accusing but the only thing I want is for this problem to get sorted so we can go to work without this worry and for my kids to have a healthy Dad in future years.
So please tell me what "ENDS" you envisage, what do you think anyone is hoping to achieve other than good here?
You're attitude of worrying about protecting your job whilst ignoring this problem is selfish and reckless.
Everything you have posted is unsubstantiated by the facts.
The real facts are that there are dozens of unhappy pilots at DHL, as a percentage I would estimate 80-90% possibly more. The other fact is that there are far more than your beloved "famous five" posting here, whether you choose to believe that or not really doesn't matter.
Where's your support on this forum - I don't see the dozens of supposedly happy pilots at DHL rallying around to fight your corner.
The only thing you are achieving is keeping this thread at the top of the pile - bravo.
You live in a world of your own amongst your fellow pilots, I know of no-one else in the company with your flippant attitude to this huge problem.
I'm intrigued when you say that "the few are blowing it all out of proportion FOR THEIR OWN ENDS". I'll be one of those a you are accusing but the only thing I want is for this problem to get sorted so we can go to work without this worry and for my kids to have a healthy Dad in future years.
So please tell me what "ENDS" you envisage, what do you think anyone is hoping to achieve other than good here?
You're attitude of worrying about protecting your job whilst ignoring this problem is selfish and reckless.
Everything you have posted is unsubstantiated by the facts.
The real facts are that there are dozens of unhappy pilots at DHL, as a percentage I would estimate 80-90% possibly more. The other fact is that there are far more than your beloved "famous five" posting here, whether you choose to believe that or not really doesn't matter.
Where's your support on this forum - I don't see the dozens of supposedly happy pilots at DHL rallying around to fight your corner.
The only thing you are achieving is keeping this thread at the top of the pile - bravo.
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The first DHL pilot to report adverse health affects and chronic fatigue as a result of flying in these aircraft was sacked in 2003....
... In 2004, this PPRuNe report came to light;
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ight=Majorbyte
It transpires that many BA pilots and cabin crew were also very unhappy with the condition of these aircraft. Apparently some 1600 fumes reports were submitted to BA management when they owned the aircraft.
... In 2004, this PPRuNe report came to light;
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ight=Majorbyte
It transpires that many BA pilots and cabin crew were also very unhappy with the condition of these aircraft. Apparently some 1600 fumes reports were submitted to BA management when they owned the aircraft.
Last edited by sapco2; 19th May 2007 at 14:15.
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Clyde Craxshcup. Yes, of course I am a pilot. ARE YOU????
Neil Armstrong. It would be difficult for you to join something you are already in.
Sapco. I think if you read that thread you can see clearly that the SAME PATTERN re: hysteria! was there as well.
It's obvious, really.
Min Drag., My attitude is not flippant. Anything but. I hold the exact opposite view of that thought, in fact.
I take MY job seriously!
As for what you hope to achieve, it is best known to you, but I can see what you WILL achieve if you follow my meaning!
As for facts! None of what you say is proven which is why the company are taking the very wise PRECAUTION of having the air qulaity monitored.
Please not they do not HAVE to do this, but are doing it as a PRECAUTION only.
And it is not ME keeping this thread going. I am only serving to discredit FICTION.
Neil Armstrong. It would be difficult for you to join something you are already in.
Sapco. I think if you read that thread you can see clearly that the SAME PATTERN re: hysteria! was there as well.
It's obvious, really.
Min Drag., My attitude is not flippant. Anything but. I hold the exact opposite view of that thought, in fact.
I take MY job seriously!
As for what you hope to achieve, it is best known to you, but I can see what you WILL achieve if you follow my meaning!
As for facts! None of what you say is proven which is why the company are taking the very wise PRECAUTION of having the air qulaity monitored.
Please not they do not HAVE to do this, but are doing it as a PRECAUTION only.
And it is not ME keeping this thread going. I am only serving to discredit FICTION.
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Arguement sketch
Monty Python
A man walks into an office.
Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please.
Receptionist: Certainly, sir. Have you been here before?
Man: No, this is my first time.
Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment.
Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory. No. Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12.
Man: Thank you.
He enters room 12.
Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?
Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...
Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!
Man: What?
A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE!
YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!
M: Oh! Oh I see!
A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.
M: Oh...Sorry...
A: Not at all!
A: (under his breath) stupid git.
The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.
Man: Is this the right room for an argument?
Other Man
pause) I've told you once.
Man: No you haven't!
Other Man: Yes I have.
M: When?
O: Just now.
M: No you didn't!
O: Yes I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I'm telling you, I did!
M: You didn't!
O: (breaking into the developing argument) Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.
O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.
Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not!
O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did! (very fast)
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!
(pause)
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
(pause)
M: It's just contradiction!
O: No it isn't!
M: It IS!
O: It is NOT!
M: You just contradicted me!
O: No I didn't!
M: You DID!
O: No no no!
M: You did just then!
O: Nonsense!
M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!
(pause)
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is!
(pause)
I came here for a good argument!
O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an *argument*!
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
O: Well! it CAN be!
M: No it can't!
An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process.
Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!
>DING!< The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.
O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?
O: That's it. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!!
O: I'm afraid it was.
M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....
(pause)
O: (dirty look) I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.
M: WHAT??
O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: But that was never five minutes just now!
(pause... the Other Man raises his eyebrows)
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!
O: I told you...
I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!
M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.)
There you are.
O: Thank you.
M: (clears throat) Well...
O: Well WHAT?
M: That was never five minutes just now.
O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Well I just paid!
O: No you didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: (unable to talk straight he's so mad) I don't want to argue about it!
O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!
M: Ah HAH!! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing???
Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!
O: (pause) No you haven't!
M: Yes I have!
If you're arguing, I must have paid.
O: Not necessarily.
I *could* be arguing in my spare time.
Monty Python
A man walks into an office.
Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please.
Receptionist: Certainly, sir. Have you been here before?
Man: No, this is my first time.
Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment.
Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory. No. Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12.
Man: Thank you.
He enters room 12.
Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?
Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...
Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!
Man: What?
A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE!
YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!
M: Oh! Oh I see!
A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.
M: Oh...Sorry...
A: Not at all!
A: (under his breath) stupid git.
The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.
Man: Is this the right room for an argument?
Other Man
pause) I've told you once.Man: No you haven't!
Other Man: Yes I have.
M: When?
O: Just now.
M: No you didn't!
O: Yes I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I'm telling you, I did!
M: You didn't!
O: (breaking into the developing argument) Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.
O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.
Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not!
O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did! (very fast)
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!
(pause)
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
(pause)
M: It's just contradiction!
O: No it isn't!
M: It IS!
O: It is NOT!
M: You just contradicted me!
O: No I didn't!
M: You DID!
O: No no no!
M: You did just then!
O: Nonsense!
M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!
(pause)
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is!
(pause)
I came here for a good argument!
O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an *argument*!
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
O: Well! it CAN be!
M: No it can't!
An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process.
Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!
>DING!< The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.
O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?
O: That's it. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!!
O: I'm afraid it was.
M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....
(pause)
O: (dirty look) I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.
M: WHAT??
O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: But that was never five minutes just now!
(pause... the Other Man raises his eyebrows)
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!
O: I told you...
I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!
M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.)
There you are.
O: Thank you.
M: (clears throat) Well...
O: Well WHAT?
M: That was never five minutes just now.
O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Well I just paid!
O: No you didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: (unable to talk straight he's so mad) I don't want to argue about it!
O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!
M: Ah HAH!! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing???
Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!
O: (pause) No you haven't!
M: Yes I have!
If you're arguing, I must have paid.
O: Not necessarily.
I *could* be arguing in my spare time.
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I know nothing of the issue, I've not even graduated to the flight deck (still a wannabe), but I have seen that the IPA (www.ipapilot.com) is also trying to grapple with the issue. Contact details on the site.
Also, there is this news year old news report: http://www.channel4.com/news/article...isoning/166630
Also, there is this news year old news report: http://www.channel4.com/news/article...isoning/166630
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Good morning, I'd like an arguement please.
Good effort Best Foot Forward (Having a Bergamo weekend are you
) I've followed the thread with interest. Incredulous would be a better word. I fly for dhlair and I've 'only' had a few minor fumes incidents. Worried? Hell yes. Come on SPQ1, most people I have flown with are either very concerned or just concerned. We all recognize the expense/complexity of the fix and therefore realize that the company is in no hurry to fix the problem. I'm not one of the famous 5 - although it is Sunday so I'll be out for a picnic later with lashings of ginger beer. And SP.. what's with all the capital letter shouting? I thought you didn't like it. We all need our jobs, but as previously mentioned, not at the expense of health. There are well informed people on this thread who are calmly taking the time to highlight a problem that needs attention. These people are exactly the kind that we need to stay as they care and some of them have stuck their necks out in the past for the good of us all.
dw
Good effort Best Foot Forward (Having a Bergamo weekend are you
) I've followed the thread with interest. Incredulous would be a better word. I fly for dhlair and I've 'only' had a few minor fumes incidents. Worried? Hell yes. Come on SPQ1, most people I have flown with are either very concerned or just concerned. We all recognize the expense/complexity of the fix and therefore realize that the company is in no hurry to fix the problem. I'm not one of the famous 5 - although it is Sunday so I'll be out for a picnic later with lashings of ginger beer. And SP.. what's with all the capital letter shouting? I thought you didn't like it. We all need our jobs, but as previously mentioned, not at the expense of health. There are well informed people on this thread who are calmly taking the time to highlight a problem that needs attention. These people are exactly the kind that we need to stay as they care and some of them have stuck their necks out in the past for the good of us all. dw
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Hi, I have heard about these threads and had to have a look for myself.
I have to say I think you are being unfair to SQP1.
He definitely has a right to say what he thinks and your consistent attempts to shout him down make me wonder if he doesn't have a very good point.
I'm sure that some pilots really believe they have been poisened and I wouldn't disupte that.
But it is entirely possible that these individuals in there fear and misunderstanding may have OVERSTATED their case and are now wipping the remaining pilots into a state, you have to admit.
It is a well known FACT, that a suggestion of a smell can cause a person to imagine all sorts of things even when they are not there.
We have all experienced this so it is reasonable to assume that that is what is going on here.
I am not an expert but it is something to think about I am sure you will all agree.
I have to say I think you are being unfair to SQP1.
He definitely has a right to say what he thinks and your consistent attempts to shout him down make me wonder if he doesn't have a very good point.
I'm sure that some pilots really believe they have been poisened and I wouldn't disupte that.
But it is entirely possible that these individuals in there fear and misunderstanding may have OVERSTATED their case and are now wipping the remaining pilots into a state, you have to admit.
It is a well known FACT, that a suggestion of a smell can cause a person to imagine all sorts of things even when they are not there.
We have all experienced this so it is reasonable to assume that that is what is going on here.
I am not an expert but it is something to think about I am sure you will all agree.
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Thank you Ace of Base.
I'm glad to see SOMEONE has an open mind about this matter.
This is precisley what I was trying to say, though you said it much better than I could, thank you.
Yes, I have also heard that the sense of smell is very suseptible to suggestions.
Are you also a DHLair pilot, or do you work for another airline?
I'm glad to see SOMEONE has an open mind about this matter.
This is precisley what I was trying to say, though you said it much better than I could, thank you.
Yes, I have also heard that the sense of smell is very suseptible to suggestions.
Are you also a DHLair pilot, or do you work for another airline?
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Ace of Base,
Most people dont shout down SQP1 ,they offer information to show there are problems or information to show that some of the things SQP1 is saying are wrong.
That he thinks there is no problem in one post and there is a problem but its only a small one on the other is fine with me.
I can tell you what the company has told me " If you have a problem with fumes maybe you should stop flying!!" with that kind of attitude i cant say that they are taking the problem seriously.
I did some more research into the RR RB211-535C engines and i found some more data ,there where 39 757 build with these engines ,not 37 as previous thought ,34 in the DHL system ,1 at Pace airlines in the states and 4 scraped or waiting this faith.time to put some more in the desert.
Neil
Most people dont shout down SQP1 ,they offer information to show there are problems or information to show that some of the things SQP1 is saying are wrong.
That he thinks there is no problem in one post and there is a problem but its only a small one on the other is fine with me.
I can tell you what the company has told me " If you have a problem with fumes maybe you should stop flying!!" with that kind of attitude i cant say that they are taking the problem seriously.
I did some more research into the RR RB211-535C engines and i found some more data ,there where 39 757 build with these engines ,not 37 as previous thought ,34 in the DHL system ,1 at Pace airlines in the states and 4 scraped or waiting this faith.time to put some more in the desert.
Neil
Last edited by neil armstrong; 20th May 2007 at 16:04.
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Thank you Sapco2 for adding some balance to these threads.
you say it's not the fumes that are the main reason for people leaving and I believe you.
I am sure that many are leaving because the oppurtunities are there for other kinds of experience and this is just a natural thing wouldn't you agree?
This kind of cycle is normal in the industry and repeats itself many times over and over.
I have seen it myself several times and can say categorically that it is normal.
Neil Armstrong, most airplanes do smell from my extensive experience!
It's just one of those things you have to accept, of course.
Not to say that you are wrong, but it's just an observation I thought I might make.
you say it's not the fumes that are the main reason for people leaving and I believe you.
I am sure that many are leaving because the oppurtunities are there for other kinds of experience and this is just a natural thing wouldn't you agree?
This kind of cycle is normal in the industry and repeats itself many times over and over.
I have seen it myself several times and can say categorically that it is normal.
Neil Armstrong, most airplanes do smell from my extensive experience!
It's just one of those things you have to accept, of course.
Not to say that you are wrong, but it's just an observation I thought I might make.
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SQP1, yes I am a DHLair pilot and have been for a long time, thank you for asking.
Troll killing time boys and girls:
SQP1 already knew that seeing as you are both writing from the same fixed IP address Ace of Base.
Regards
Rob -
Big red Words at the bottom of the page folks.
Troll killing time boys and girls:
SQP1 already knew that seeing as you are both writing from the same fixed IP address Ace of Base.
Regards
Rob -
Big red Words at the bottom of the page folks.
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Dons Anorak to weigh in.....
actually Neil there was a larger production run of the 535C engine, Eastern re-engined theirs when the E4 became available....the engines removed were then put on the new build aircraft for BA...
Anorak removed...
actually Neil there was a larger production run of the 535C engine, Eastern re-engined theirs when the E4 became available....the engines removed were then put on the new build aircraft for BA...
Anorak removed...
Is it really so expensive to re-engine these aircraft? If so, perhaps DHL have bought a bunch of "dogs" in the first place?
If so, BA must have been pleased to see them coming!
If so, BA must have been pleased to see them coming!
