DHLAir wannabe? read this.
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DHL Fumes in cockpit
Very interesting reading what is hapening at DHL,re Fumes in cockpit.I was down the road in Liege,(DSC),where Ba146 and Airbus 300s are the main types.On the 146,several Pilots were affected by this,and I am one of them.Having flown the type in Air Uk,and KLMUk,I was flying them nearly from the start of their service.Both Flight deck and Cabin Staff were both affected by fumes.This was put down to the use of Mobiljet2 Oil,and APU Filter,and matrixes getting glogged.We changed to Aeroshell,which was better,but engine hours were substantially less,according to the beancounters.Much later when TNT became part of the Belgian Operation,this happened again.Quite a few Pilots were again affected,and the locals were transferred onto different fleets,but those remaining on the 146 suffered several respiratory problems.In my case this necessitated an operation on my sinuses,which unfortunately in a BUPA Hospital picked a severe infection.Luckily I was near retirement age,but lost my medical,and was unfit for about 18 months.Severe migraine headaches continue to this day,but as INCAPACITATED under NHS definitions it is impossible to get ANY job,because of insurance implications in case something you do goes wrong.Therefore,anyone with these problems need to know that you will be totally unable to work if you let this matter get to the serious stage that I got too.Very little effort was made to elleviate the problem and the Belgian CAA did not even get all the MORs,of which some were supressed.The Company Safety Officer,presumably with higher pressure,only responded that it was being dealt with and we flew with Air samplers in the vestibule.Further to that we then had the Airframes retreated with a Corrosive Proof Liquid.The Aircraft were put straight back on line afterwards,and several crews again were subjected to incredible fumes.Apparently the liquid should have dried completely and bonded to the skin,but the ambient high temperatures caused it tp go back to its liquid state,which was very toxic.The operatives spraying this substance were dressed like Cybermen,under health and Safety,yet we as crews breathed in these noxious fumes,and suffered accordingly.The moral is ALL PILOTS BEWARE,because you know where Sympathy lies in the Dictionary,between XXXX and YYYY.
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Yes, this is why I opted out. DHL want to do the same with the 75's. Put sniffers in and -eff all else done. That's closing the gate after the horse has bolted, if you ask me. It's not even closing the gate, it's just putting an alarm on the patch to tell you when the next horse has escaped!
Clearly I was just not worth the cost of a proper fix.
It will be interesting to see where all this ends up in years to come, legally and of course medically for the pilots that fly these aircraft. I'm told the toxins never leave your body so I'm hoping I left before the toxin levels accumulated to the PNR!
Clearly I was just not worth the cost of a proper fix.
It will be interesting to see where all this ends up in years to come, legally and of course medically for the pilots that fly these aircraft. I'm told the toxins never leave your body so I'm hoping I left before the toxin levels accumulated to the PNR!
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next week I have an interview with dhl at ema, I was reading your article and if it´s true
what you have been posted, maybe I should stay at home and enjoy my off day instead to waste time and money to go there.
presently I fly with cal on 744, my intention to apply with dhl was to be closer to my family (I live in berlin) because dhl is looking for pilots based in lej.
what can you recommend me???
brgds 744cal
what you have been posted, maybe I should stay at home and enjoy my off day instead to waste time and money to go there.
presently I fly with cal on 744, my intention to apply with dhl was to be closer to my family (I live in berlin) because dhl is looking for pilots based in lej.
what can you recommend me???
brgds 744cal
It's true. It's up to you, mate.
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I have been in the crew rooms of course. In the DHL building in EMA, in the hangar in BRU if you really want proof.
The reason I haven't been taken seriously is because it's more fashionable to be negative.
While I do take the point of Mr Armstrong that there has been problems in the past, what I amd saying is that they are being used by some to overdramatise things and create a problem where there really isn't one.
Most if not all of the people I fly with are saying there is no problem and are wondering what it is the noisy few are talking about.
I also can't believe the airplanes would be allowed to fly if they were a problem.
The CAA would not allow it you have to admit.
The reason I haven't been taken seriously is because it's more fashionable to be negative.
While I do take the point of Mr Armstrong that there has been problems in the past, what I amd saying is that they are being used by some to overdramatise things and create a problem where there really isn't one.
Most if not all of the people I fly with are saying there is no problem and are wondering what it is the noisy few are talking about.
I also can't believe the airplanes would be allowed to fly if they were a problem.
The CAA would not allow it you have to admit.
I have had a few fumes events.
They're real.
They stink.
I don't want another.
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Cockpit Fumes ,757,Ba146
Hello again to all at DHL,as one who has suffered total loss of medical, and is classified under DHSS Criteria as incapacitated, let me tell you more.
The CAA has not got enough Historic Data Base to say whether this is long term or not!!I was told Boeing and Bae were investigating the fumes problems,but in the end considered these were only short term problems, which would be resolved by recovering on Days off and Leave!!
I still have copies of my MORs, which clearly state my Crew had blurred vision, headaches, sore throats, which were a definite hazard to Flight Safety. However it was only after several of these were put in to the Company, that the Belgian CAA were involved, and we got Air Samplers.
If you have proloned exposure to this you get inflamed sinuses which swell, and cause respiratory problems. With on and off exposure, this leads to the swelling not being able to go down, but gets worse and worse.
This gives you Hay Fever type symtoms-Runny nose, runny eyes, which lead to blocked ears and ear drum problems. Finally you get a strong sensation of the Leans, and all of this is most unpleasant, especially when doing Freezing Fog Cat2 let downs into Eastern Europe!!
The main symtoms do go away ,but come back again with increased exposure, and then get worse by degrees.T he last Safety Officer I dealt with actually thanked me for highlighting this, and told me 1-1, and definitely not in writing!, that the Company were delighted , because they had found that the Ducting Conduits,from Pac2 were contaminated from years of nasty substance build up, which had never been removed , since they were Freighter Aircraft from Build and so Pac 2 was not considered important, provided pressurisation was not compromised-How many Guys out there in Pax Aircraft have to shut down pac2 anyway and run on recirc air in the cabin to save Fuel costs???????, from time to time. This would then solve the problems so they told me , and thanked me for my time!!!
In my case,it could not be proven, whether the Fumes had caused Organophosphate Poisoning and that had resulted in Headaches, vision problems , sinus etc, OR that that was partially the situation, but the main cause was my secondary infection that these got worse and were responsible for my Loss of Medical.
As far as BUPA were concerned-"All official guidelines and protocol were adhered to,so NO case to answer". My Consultant Neurologist said categorically The Fumes must be the cause, because what else could have done it?? He would not put that in writing or give evidence to that effect.
Finally it was considered that having flown military aircraft,the continuous smells of Hydraulics, Oils, JP1, etc that pervade the cockpit all the time, this must have contributed to the long term problem. I pointed out that we flew almost all the time on Oxygen, and that flights were only 45 mins, and not 4 hours or more. This was ignored, and I was finally told that having flown for over 40 years I was lucky nothing else had gone wrong.
So with Courtesy to Oscar Brand and the Roger Wilco 4. "When my flying days are over,and they put me out to grass,please bury me upside down,so the World can kiss my arse!!!!!!!"
The CAA has not got enough Historic Data Base to say whether this is long term or not!!I was told Boeing and Bae were investigating the fumes problems,but in the end considered these were only short term problems, which would be resolved by recovering on Days off and Leave!!
I still have copies of my MORs, which clearly state my Crew had blurred vision, headaches, sore throats, which were a definite hazard to Flight Safety. However it was only after several of these were put in to the Company, that the Belgian CAA were involved, and we got Air Samplers.
If you have proloned exposure to this you get inflamed sinuses which swell, and cause respiratory problems. With on and off exposure, this leads to the swelling not being able to go down, but gets worse and worse.
This gives you Hay Fever type symtoms-Runny nose, runny eyes, which lead to blocked ears and ear drum problems. Finally you get a strong sensation of the Leans, and all of this is most unpleasant, especially when doing Freezing Fog Cat2 let downs into Eastern Europe!!
The main symtoms do go away ,but come back again with increased exposure, and then get worse by degrees.T he last Safety Officer I dealt with actually thanked me for highlighting this, and told me 1-1, and definitely not in writing!, that the Company were delighted , because they had found that the Ducting Conduits,from Pac2 were contaminated from years of nasty substance build up, which had never been removed , since they were Freighter Aircraft from Build and so Pac 2 was not considered important, provided pressurisation was not compromised-How many Guys out there in Pax Aircraft have to shut down pac2 anyway and run on recirc air in the cabin to save Fuel costs???????, from time to time. This would then solve the problems so they told me , and thanked me for my time!!!
In my case,it could not be proven, whether the Fumes had caused Organophosphate Poisoning and that had resulted in Headaches, vision problems , sinus etc, OR that that was partially the situation, but the main cause was my secondary infection that these got worse and were responsible for my Loss of Medical.
As far as BUPA were concerned-"All official guidelines and protocol were adhered to,so NO case to answer". My Consultant Neurologist said categorically The Fumes must be the cause, because what else could have done it?? He would not put that in writing or give evidence to that effect.
Finally it was considered that having flown military aircraft,the continuous smells of Hydraulics, Oils, JP1, etc that pervade the cockpit all the time, this must have contributed to the long term problem. I pointed out that we flew almost all the time on Oxygen, and that flights were only 45 mins, and not 4 hours or more. This was ignored, and I was finally told that having flown for over 40 years I was lucky nothing else had gone wrong.
So with Courtesy to Oscar Brand and the Roger Wilco 4. "When my flying days are over,and they put me out to grass,please bury me upside down,so the World can kiss my arse!!!!!!!"
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It is understandable that some crew may not be convinced that fumes are a concern. While sitting in the flight deck it is easy to simply accept that this is the aircraft’s natural aroma. After all, it is a piece of machinery and one would expect it to have some kind of metallic/lubricant type stench. Some people are more prone to the effects of the toxic stink than others. Many crew have not experienced the fumes at all. There is no smoke, no instrument or system abnormality evident and even after a reported event, no residual evidence of any sort (with the possible exception of blood tests etc) to indicate any fume problem in the aircraft. It is an extremely difficult occurrence to prove.
It is also true that it remains the few who voice their concerns. In any workforce we are faced with the same scenario. Some will talk about it and some won’t. The vast majority couldn’t be bothered spending time on their PC’s writing about it.
SQP1 – It is pleasing that you have joined the debate with an opposing opinion but it would be advantageous to everyone if you delivered a sensibly constructed discussion. Perhaps you could also hope to learn something that may make you more circumspect while at work. (The definitions of majority and minority may also be of interest to you.)
There are however, too many reports to ignore. Some reports are compelling. Anyone having heard the complete description of BarrowBoy’s experience will not only be convinced but should be positively concerned about the continuing operation of these engines. Another crew, for whom I have the utmost respect, described an approach proceeding normally until approximately 1,000’ whereupon a fine, moist, sticky spray was felt on their arms emanating from the eyeball vents. Immediately their eyes began to sting and a burning sensation was felt in the throat, much as previously described. Interestingly, 1,000’ or thereabouts equates to stabilised i.e. Thrust levers up – spray from vents. I haven’t experienced the fumes but have absolutely no doubt as to their existence.
Dropping oil levels in oil tanks is a great idea if it helps to reduce the number of fumes in cockpit events but is that not an indication that the engine oil system and engine operation is inherently flawed and as such should be replaced? And if engines should be replaced, who is responsible? Rolls Royce or DHL Air?
The only way to advance the recognition of this problem is to convince crews to lodge an MOR every time they experience a fumes in cockpit event. In fact crews have a moral obligation to do so. Failure in this capacity will leave the rest of the aviation community, including the CAA, ignorant of the 757’s poisonous existence and the management will continue to do very little.
For a management organisation who state emphatically that they are “passionate about safety”, ignoring or doing very little about the problem is tantamount to negligence. In the same way that the responsibility of the war in Iraq must rest squarely on the shoulders of Bush & Blair, DHL Air management must accept absolute responsibility for the continuation and subsequent consequences of the fumes in cockpit problem.
It is also true that it remains the few who voice their concerns. In any workforce we are faced with the same scenario. Some will talk about it and some won’t. The vast majority couldn’t be bothered spending time on their PC’s writing about it.
SQP1 – It is pleasing that you have joined the debate with an opposing opinion but it would be advantageous to everyone if you delivered a sensibly constructed discussion. Perhaps you could also hope to learn something that may make you more circumspect while at work. (The definitions of majority and minority may also be of interest to you.)
There are however, too many reports to ignore. Some reports are compelling. Anyone having heard the complete description of BarrowBoy’s experience will not only be convinced but should be positively concerned about the continuing operation of these engines. Another crew, for whom I have the utmost respect, described an approach proceeding normally until approximately 1,000’ whereupon a fine, moist, sticky spray was felt on their arms emanating from the eyeball vents. Immediately their eyes began to sting and a burning sensation was felt in the throat, much as previously described. Interestingly, 1,000’ or thereabouts equates to stabilised i.e. Thrust levers up – spray from vents. I haven’t experienced the fumes but have absolutely no doubt as to their existence.
Dropping oil levels in oil tanks is a great idea if it helps to reduce the number of fumes in cockpit events but is that not an indication that the engine oil system and engine operation is inherently flawed and as such should be replaced? And if engines should be replaced, who is responsible? Rolls Royce or DHL Air?
The only way to advance the recognition of this problem is to convince crews to lodge an MOR every time they experience a fumes in cockpit event. In fact crews have a moral obligation to do so. Failure in this capacity will leave the rest of the aviation community, including the CAA, ignorant of the 757’s poisonous existence and the management will continue to do very little.
For a management organisation who state emphatically that they are “passionate about safety”, ignoring or doing very little about the problem is tantamount to negligence. In the same way that the responsibility of the war in Iraq must rest squarely on the shoulders of Bush & Blair, DHL Air management must accept absolute responsibility for the continuation and subsequent consequences of the fumes in cockpit problem.
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Yes Clockpit, good post.
The approach incidents I had were a bit earlier than 1,000 feet, more like 4 or 5,000. Engineers think it might have been to supple,entary bleed air opening and supplying the packs with air from a different part of the compressor section. This could also be the reason why so many events have been recorded at top of descent when the taps are closed. However, due to the intermittent nature of the problem all they can do is theorise. What needs to be done is replacement of the labirynth seals or of the entire engine(s). Expensive, but if it's gotta be done, it's gotta be done.
The approach incidents I had were a bit earlier than 1,000 feet, more like 4 or 5,000. Engineers think it might have been to supple,entary bleed air opening and supplying the packs with air from a different part of the compressor section. This could also be the reason why so many events have been recorded at top of descent when the taps are closed. However, due to the intermittent nature of the problem all they can do is theorise. What needs to be done is replacement of the labirynth seals or of the entire engine(s). Expensive, but if it's gotta be done, it's gotta be done.
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Love your posts SQP1.
I don't agree with a single word of any of them, I don't think you are winding people up either, you are genuinely really angry about something(s) or maybe someone?, but I don't think it's Aviation related.
That aside they are great entertainment, please don't stop.
I don't agree with a single word of any of them, I don't think you are winding people up either, you are genuinely really angry about something(s) or maybe someone?, but I don't think it's Aviation related.
That aside they are great entertainment, please don't stop.
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Winding people up!!!! I'm just rebutting what has been said.
This is what I mean about being shouted down.
Somebody posts something slanderous for there own good here and I am accused of stirring it when its the famous five that are stirring the ^&*#@*
Angry! Yes I'm angry that WHINERS like that can get away with it unapposed. Nobody else has what it takes to say what I'm saying here!
I guess that makes you Timmy the dog!
This is what I mean about being shouted down.
Somebody posts something slanderous for there own good here and I am accused of stirring it when its the famous five that are stirring the ^&*#@*
Angry! Yes I'm angry that WHINERS like that can get away with it unapposed. Nobody else has what it takes to say what I'm saying here!
I guess that makes you Timmy the dog!
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SQP, If it is just vicious rumour that we suffer fumes can you explain why there have been 42 ASR's/ MOR's in the past year ( that number came from the DFO).......and they came from significantly more than the "Five" people whom you seem to think are stirring it.
If you don't believe there is an issue PM me & I will email you exactly what happened to me & how I was subsequently treated. See then if you think its all c**p.......
The fact you don't wish to believe there is an issue is your perogative, it's your health that will suffer if you get a significant dose/doses. Why are you so anti the fact that some people have suffered from fumes & wish it to be made public rather than cover up the issue as BA did when they had the aircraft. If there wasn't a problem why are the company now taking part in a test programme & putting sniffer units on the aircraft? Do you think they would bother or withstand the expense if they didn't acknowledge it as a problem?
If you don't believe there is an issue PM me & I will email you exactly what happened to me & how I was subsequently treated. See then if you think its all c**p.......
The fact you don't wish to believe there is an issue is your perogative, it's your health that will suffer if you get a significant dose/doses. Why are you so anti the fact that some people have suffered from fumes & wish it to be made public rather than cover up the issue as BA did when they had the aircraft. If there wasn't a problem why are the company now taking part in a test programme & putting sniffer units on the aircraft? Do you think they would bother or withstand the expense if they didn't acknowledge it as a problem?
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SQP1 I said you are winding nearly everyone up, but I don't think that's your aim,
there's a major lack of support for your point of view on this thread, would be interesting to hear the opinions of your "followers"
And your statement 'Nobody else has what it takes to say what I'm saying here! " is about as brave as a school boy throwing pebbles at old peoples windows and hiding in the darkness.
I Still think the cause of your anger isn't aviation related.
there's a major lack of support for your point of view on this thread, would be interesting to hear the opinions of your "followers"
And your statement 'Nobody else has what it takes to say what I'm saying here! " is about as brave as a school boy throwing pebbles at old peoples windows and hiding in the darkness.
I Still think the cause of your anger isn't aviation related.
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"And your statement 'Nobody else has what it takes to say what I'm saying here! " is about as brave as a school boy throwing pebbles at old peoples windows and hiding in the darkness.
I Still think the cause of your anger isn't aviation related"
Oh I don't know. He has a point there. I don't think anyone else here does have a brain the size of a walnut....
I Still think the cause of your anger isn't aviation related"
Oh I don't know. He has a point there. I don't think anyone else here does have a brain the size of a walnut....
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Obviously the only people I'm embarrasing are the drama queens.
You lot can't do anything but try and opress what I'm saying with personal attacks on my spelling and saying I have a tiny brain while you avoid the issue!
All the ASRs put in over this are the result of the pilot body becoming hysterical over what the famous five keep raving about.
Funny how there isin't ANY over at EAT, isn't it?
You lot can't do anything but try and opress what I'm saying with personal attacks on my spelling and saying I have a tiny brain while you avoid the issue!
All the ASRs put in over this are the result of the pilot body becoming hysterical over what the famous five keep raving about.
Funny how there isin't ANY over at EAT, isn't it?
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could you define ANY?
I have seen 8 fumes reports from EAT for 2005 (sorry i dont have 2006 data) ,i have also seen a report about engine changes/overhauls and there where 2 engine changes from EAT 757's on there with the reason given ,engine fumes!
you problably know who i am so ask me and i will show you the fumes reports
Neil
I have seen 8 fumes reports from EAT for 2005 (sorry i dont have 2006 data) ,i have also seen a report about engine changes/overhauls and there where 2 engine changes from EAT 757's on there with the reason given ,engine fumes!
you problably know who i am so ask me and i will show you the fumes reports
Neil
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SQP1 lad, at this stage, “embarrassing” doesn’t cover how you appear. You really have no idea. If you do have an ounce of common sense you should be able to work out it is time to stop typing the libellous drivel YOU are posting here.
You have had fact after fact placed in front of you and in return you have answered with a stream of insults and inaccuracies and not ONE SINGLE FACT to back up your thesis that the whole thing has been fashioned in the minds of some “drama queen” pilots.
I will be watching out for this “hysterical pilot body” you refer to when I report for work tonight.
You really ought to get hold of the book “How to win Friends and Influence People.” It is a real book and you would benefit greatly by reading it.
And one final thought for you; if you were as anonymous as you think you are, I would not be wasting my time making this post.
You have had fact after fact placed in front of you and in return you have answered with a stream of insults and inaccuracies and not ONE SINGLE FACT to back up your thesis that the whole thing has been fashioned in the minds of some “drama queen” pilots.
I will be watching out for this “hysterical pilot body” you refer to when I report for work tonight.
You really ought to get hold of the book “How to win Friends and Influence People.” It is a real book and you would benefit greatly by reading it.
And one final thought for you; if you were as anonymous as you think you are, I would not be wasting my time making this post.
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SQP1, I guess one of the greatest dangers of donning a pseudonym is that any personal attacks on your colleagues can easily become heavy handed and out of character.
I believe I too, have worked out who you are (you will certainly know who I am) and for what it's worth; I personally think the loyalty you have returned to DHL is highly commendable albeit you seem to have failed to grasp the fact that those you criticise so heavily have their own sense of loyalty to the company!
I believe your fellow first officers and the captains you fly with will have the good grace to respect your opposing opinion but in return, it would seem courteous for you to respect their right to report the facts as they know them, particularly since it is fair to assume that what is being said here can be substantiated by the individuals concerned.
Perhaps we can now call a truce!
I believe I too, have worked out who you are (you will certainly know who I am) and for what it's worth; I personally think the loyalty you have returned to DHL is highly commendable albeit you seem to have failed to grasp the fact that those you criticise so heavily have their own sense of loyalty to the company!
I believe your fellow first officers and the captains you fly with will have the good grace to respect your opposing opinion but in return, it would seem courteous for you to respect their right to report the facts as they know them, particularly since it is fair to assume that what is being said here can be substantiated by the individuals concerned.
Perhaps we can now call a truce!
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You really ought to get hold of the book “How to win Friends and Influence People.” It is a real book and you would benefit greatly by reading it.
And one final thought for you; if you were as anonymous as you think you are, I would not be wasting my time making this post.
And one final thought for you; if you were as anonymous as you think you are, I would not be wasting my time making this post.
I'll say it one last time then I'm out of here since that is what will make you all happy..
The problem isn't that bad as has been made out..
