DHLAir wannabe? read this.
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There, there now SQP1.
Don't let those beastly Drama Queens upset you now,
you don't deserve to be treated so badly by them, they are absolutely horrid, ghastly people.
There's no justice in this world, it's always the nice people that have all the rotten luck. You poor old love. Try to be strong.
I for one am really going to miss you.
Don't let those beastly Drama Queens upset you now,
you don't deserve to be treated so badly by them, they are absolutely horrid, ghastly people.
There's no justice in this world, it's always the nice people that have all the rotten luck. You poor old love. Try to be strong.
I for one am really going to miss you.
Last edited by Badhorsey; 8th May 2007 at 17:19.
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Gentlemen
I wonder if you would mind if I jumped in here and asked a couple of questions?
I have been flying 757s for many years now and have never even heard of this problem until one of my buddies pointed out this internet site to me. I googled the internet and found quite a good lot of info on this problem. Believe me, I don't doubt you for a minute and it has me a bit worried about my own health.
So, question one. Is it just Rolls Royce powered 75's that have this problem? If so, is it just the older engines that do this? I see there are organo phosphates involved. Have these been proven to be present in the fumes coming in?
And last but not least, if the problems are as bad as they seem to be according to most of the people writing here, why hasn't DHL done something about it? They're not some rinky dink little outfit operating out of a barn are they? (Just kidding there)
I truly hope you get this problem solved before too long.
Best wishes to all of you
Bob Luken
I wonder if you would mind if I jumped in here and asked a couple of questions?
I have been flying 757s for many years now and have never even heard of this problem until one of my buddies pointed out this internet site to me. I googled the internet and found quite a good lot of info on this problem. Believe me, I don't doubt you for a minute and it has me a bit worried about my own health.
So, question one. Is it just Rolls Royce powered 75's that have this problem? If so, is it just the older engines that do this? I see there are organo phosphates involved. Have these been proven to be present in the fumes coming in?
And last but not least, if the problems are as bad as they seem to be according to most of the people writing here, why hasn't DHL done something about it? They're not some rinky dink little outfit operating out of a barn are they? (Just kidding there)
I truly hope you get this problem solved before too long.
Best wishes to all of you
Bob Luken
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SQP1 you have been accusing us of being drama queens and making up stories but you have not reacted once on information we have provided about the fumes problem.
So if yr looking for sympathy you problably will not find it here.
Bob,
its mainly a problem of 757 powered by the RR RB211-535C engines the 757 with the E4 engines have a lot less reports of it (see page 2)
A fix will cost lots of money and that might be the reason it still exist.
Neil
So if yr looking for sympathy you problably will not find it here.
Bob,
its mainly a problem of 757 powered by the RR RB211-535C engines the 757 with the E4 engines have a lot less reports of it (see page 2)
A fix will cost lots of money and that might be the reason it still exist.
Neil
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SQP1, rest assured you're under no threat - your opinion is valid!
BLuken, you've asked two good questions;
1. I've been flying B757's for 13 years now; 5yrs with DHL using RR RB211C5 engines. I can honestly say I have never noted any sort of obnoxious smell on the E4 engine models. Problems with the C5 engines were first highlighted by an ex DHL pilot back in 2004; following that there have been an increasing number of complaints. At least 42 pilots have been associated with ASR reports.
2. I'm not sure how to answer the second part of your question without stiring up emotions but I do think it would be fair to say, the engineering department have been working hard to improve the status quo.
Unfortunately the subject is still highly emotive but MY PERSONAL VIEWPOINT is that the fault is unlikely to be totally eradicated until such time DHL either replace or overhaul the problem engines.
Many pilots have voted with their feet and left the company, some worry about the response they are likely to receive from management, and others cannot detect a problem at all.
BLuken, you've asked two good questions;
1. I've been flying B757's for 13 years now; 5yrs with DHL using RR RB211C5 engines. I can honestly say I have never noted any sort of obnoxious smell on the E4 engine models. Problems with the C5 engines were first highlighted by an ex DHL pilot back in 2004; following that there have been an increasing number of complaints. At least 42 pilots have been associated with ASR reports.
2. I'm not sure how to answer the second part of your question without stiring up emotions but I do think it would be fair to say, the engineering department have been working hard to improve the status quo.
Unfortunately the subject is still highly emotive but MY PERSONAL VIEWPOINT is that the fault is unlikely to be totally eradicated until such time DHL either replace or overhaul the problem engines.
Many pilots have voted with their feet and left the company, some worry about the response they are likely to receive from management, and others cannot detect a problem at all.
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SQP1, for Pete’s sake!
We’ve watched you shovel your hole deeper and deeper while responding disparagingly to everyone with an opposing viewpoint to yours (that's just about everyone I guess).
You put your baseless (the fact that you have not suffered an event is proof only that you have been lucky, like most of us) argument across with all the ferocity of, and sounding as well informed as, it has to be said, a schoolboy in short trousers. Those you berated treated you in turn with kid gloves (no pun intended) and (for the most part) a respect which you certainly didn’t ask for.
I finally decide that the least I can do for you is to let you know that your cloak of anonymity is full of holes (several us took no more than a couple of posts to work out who were, your profile so obviously shines through).
Sapco2, conciliatory gentleman as ever, even attempted to make excuses for you in his post.
In response you complain that this amounts to “we know where you live” type threats. ?????
What on earth is your problem? Can you not see when someone is trying to give you a hand out of the hole you are digging?
You have told people who ended up in hospital after a so called “fume event” that they are “drama queens.” Just because the really bad events are rare, thank goodness, how do you know for sure that we are not all collecting small doses of something nasty on a more progressive basis that will eventually shorten our lives? Surely that is why our new O.D. is taking the problem so seriously? Surely that is the reason there is a government funded investigation into the problem by the DfT under way right now?
I do not wish it on you to have to learn the hard way that the problem exists.
You have a long time to go in this business. You should be grateful to the people that speak out and try to improve conditions for all of us instead of behaving as you do. I will never understand where you are coming from.
However we all have to work together.
Sapco2 posted:
“I believe your fellow first officers and the captains you fly with will have the good grace to respect your opposing opinion but in return, it would seem courteous for you to respect their right to report the facts as they know them, particularly since it is fair to assume that what is being said here can be substantiated by the individuals concerned.
Perhaps we can now call a truce!”
You really spotted a threat of some kind in there somewhere?
(BTW it is kind of ironic that out of a long list of items that is causing low morale here, you have done more than anyone else to highlight the problem you appear to least believe exists. Very ironic!)
We’ve watched you shovel your hole deeper and deeper while responding disparagingly to everyone with an opposing viewpoint to yours (that's just about everyone I guess).
You put your baseless (the fact that you have not suffered an event is proof only that you have been lucky, like most of us) argument across with all the ferocity of, and sounding as well informed as, it has to be said, a schoolboy in short trousers. Those you berated treated you in turn with kid gloves (no pun intended) and (for the most part) a respect which you certainly didn’t ask for.
I finally decide that the least I can do for you is to let you know that your cloak of anonymity is full of holes (several us took no more than a couple of posts to work out who were, your profile so obviously shines through).
Sapco2, conciliatory gentleman as ever, even attempted to make excuses for you in his post.
In response you complain that this amounts to “we know where you live” type threats. ?????
What on earth is your problem? Can you not see when someone is trying to give you a hand out of the hole you are digging?
You have told people who ended up in hospital after a so called “fume event” that they are “drama queens.” Just because the really bad events are rare, thank goodness, how do you know for sure that we are not all collecting small doses of something nasty on a more progressive basis that will eventually shorten our lives? Surely that is why our new O.D. is taking the problem so seriously? Surely that is the reason there is a government funded investigation into the problem by the DfT under way right now?
I do not wish it on you to have to learn the hard way that the problem exists.
You have a long time to go in this business. You should be grateful to the people that speak out and try to improve conditions for all of us instead of behaving as you do. I will never understand where you are coming from.
However we all have to work together.
Sapco2 posted:
“I believe your fellow first officers and the captains you fly with will have the good grace to respect your opposing opinion but in return, it would seem courteous for you to respect their right to report the facts as they know them, particularly since it is fair to assume that what is being said here can be substantiated by the individuals concerned.
Perhaps we can now call a truce!”
You really spotted a threat of some kind in there somewhere?
(BTW it is kind of ironic that out of a long list of items that is causing low morale here, you have done more than anyone else to highlight the problem you appear to least believe exists. Very ironic!)
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Flybe have major problems too.
Flybe have had these contaminated air problems on the BAE146 for a long time. The 146 in general has had these problems going back over 25 years when Dan Air first reported them along with National Jet and Ansett in Australia, and Air BC in Canada.
Unfortunately the CAA are in BAE's pocket and continue to keep their heads down. It is costly to rectify the problem of that there is no doubt but the solutions ARE there, in the way of catalytic converters, activated carbon filters, new design engine seals; which are actually proving to be quite good. It is a shame the same can not be said for the APU seals.
It is a highly political debate which has the potential to bring down governments. That is why there is pressure from on high to turn a blind eye and not report the incidents.
For the record, several Pilots from Flybe, BA, KLM UK, to name a few have lost their medicals and Licenses over this. Several more have significant
" chemical injuries " which are consistent with organophosphate poisoning and a whole alphabet of other toxic chemicals inhaled on a daily basis due to the contaminated air.
This problem is far, far, greater than most are willing to admit.
Unfortunately the CAA are in BAE's pocket and continue to keep their heads down. It is costly to rectify the problem of that there is no doubt but the solutions ARE there, in the way of catalytic converters, activated carbon filters, new design engine seals; which are actually proving to be quite good. It is a shame the same can not be said for the APU seals.
It is a highly political debate which has the potential to bring down governments. That is why there is pressure from on high to turn a blind eye and not report the incidents.
For the record, several Pilots from Flybe, BA, KLM UK, to name a few have lost their medicals and Licenses over this. Several more have significant
" chemical injuries " which are consistent with organophosphate poisoning and a whole alphabet of other toxic chemicals inhaled on a daily basis due to the contaminated air.
This problem is far, far, greater than most are willing to admit.
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We're definitely getting that impression as well. "all that can be done is being done" is the latest from on high, which is obvious rubbish.
What could (can) be done in reality is
A. maintain the airplanes to the same schedule as BA used when they had them and replace the seals at half engine life or less,
B. Replace the engines as soon as they show any signs of trouble, or at least replace the seals.
C. Replace the airplanes altogether
D. Replace the 535C engines with E4 engines
Any of these would solve the problem, but they all cost, to some degree or another. Any of these options will cost DHL more than we're worth to them and they're simply relying on the fact that it is difficult to link any health problems to the fumes situation. In other words, they're gambling the money they are saving by not doing the necessary now will not have to be laid out later in care for the pilots they have injured.
Nice fellas.
What could (can) be done in reality is
A. maintain the airplanes to the same schedule as BA used when they had them and replace the seals at half engine life or less,
B. Replace the engines as soon as they show any signs of trouble, or at least replace the seals.
C. Replace the airplanes altogether
D. Replace the 535C engines with E4 engines
Any of these would solve the problem, but they all cost, to some degree or another. Any of these options will cost DHL more than we're worth to them and they're simply relying on the fact that it is difficult to link any health problems to the fumes situation. In other words, they're gambling the money they are saving by not doing the necessary now will not have to be laid out later in care for the pilots they have injured.
Nice fellas.
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Talked to the engineer at LEP this week - no spare engines available at BRU all are being reconditioned so standby for a/c aog.
They are even taking engines with no fume history off a/c in for check(6-8 hr job) to keep problem a/c flying,then changing them back again after as little as 2/3 days !!!
They are even taking engines with no fume history off a/c in for check(6-8 hr job) to keep problem a/c flying,then changing them back again after as little as 2/3 days !!!
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Avenging Angel, I was NOT talking about Sapco2s post I meant your "You are not so as anonymouse as you think" post with the threats.
As for the fumes, its still a bit curious that the Belgiques don't have as many incidents as we have, don't you think?
I never named ANYONE as a drama queen, but there are people that are definitely drama queens so get off your high horse nobody ever called you anything.
And Clyde, maybe you'd like to buy the engines? Or new planes?
And I am not highlighting anything! I am only trying to post a different point of view!
It's not me highlighting, I'm trying to turn the highlights down!
As for the fumes, its still a bit curious that the Belgiques don't have as many incidents as we have, don't you think?
I never named ANYONE as a drama queen, but there are people that are definitely drama queens so get off your high horse nobody ever called you anything.
And Clyde, maybe you'd like to buy the engines? Or new planes?
And I am not highlighting anything! I am only trying to post a different point of view!
It's not me highlighting, I'm trying to turn the highlights down!
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wheelbarrow
Slight correction to your post
"A" Check seems to 1-3 days at EAT not 6-8 hours , I think in my previous life (a la SAPCO2) they did it in shorter periods and they were older 757's...
They did take an Engine off a 4?C Check which is 4 weeks @ QLA. As "the" Engineer at LEJ (surely there must be more than one, or are they all at EMA!)
says there is an issue with engines coming out of GE after overhaul vv off wing time expiry, this has been going on for about 2 years in my limited understanding of such engineering issues so is nothing new. So far no aircraft have been grounded due lack of Engines, just crew
Slight correction to your post
"A" Check seems to 1-3 days at EAT not 6-8 hours , I think in my previous life (a la SAPCO2) they did it in shorter periods and they were older 757's...
They did take an Engine off a 4?C Check which is 4 weeks @ QLA. As "the" Engineer at LEJ (surely there must be more than one, or are they all at EMA!)
says there is an issue with engines coming out of GE after overhaul vv off wing time expiry, this has been going on for about 2 years in my limited understanding of such engineering issues so is nothing new. So far no aircraft have been grounded due lack of Engines, just crew
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SQP1 as I expected you hang behind your cloak of anonymity & yet when given the opportunity to PM me to hear about the real details you run & hide.....
Well as you don't beleive there is a problem maybe you will stump up the cost of the scheduled flight that was required yesterday to take a replacement crewmember to HEL following a serious fumes incident that left the crew feeling ill & one unable to leave the hotel......or maybe he was imagining the vomiting. aching & headaches.
Oh, and he wasn't one of the drama queen five either......
Wake up & smell the coffee, just because some people are more vocal about the problem doesn't mean they are the only ones that truly beleive in it. Maybe the only way your opinion will be changed is unfortunately when you are lying in hospital as I was having been exposed, then you may start to realise that no matter what the company do/don't do this won't go away quickley. In the meantime I hope you feel rewarded in your support of the company...strangely the new DFO is very worried about the problem, maybe you need to convert him also...but then what would he know!!
Well as you don't beleive there is a problem maybe you will stump up the cost of the scheduled flight that was required yesterday to take a replacement crewmember to HEL following a serious fumes incident that left the crew feeling ill & one unable to leave the hotel......or maybe he was imagining the vomiting. aching & headaches.
Oh, and he wasn't one of the drama queen five either......
Wake up & smell the coffee, just because some people are more vocal about the problem doesn't mean they are the only ones that truly beleive in it. Maybe the only way your opinion will be changed is unfortunately when you are lying in hospital as I was having been exposed, then you may start to realise that no matter what the company do/don't do this won't go away quickley. In the meantime I hope you feel rewarded in your support of the company...strangely the new DFO is very worried about the problem, maybe you need to convert him also...but then what would he know!!
Last edited by BarrowBoy; 11th May 2007 at 17:14.
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Mr Angry I was refering to the time taken to change the engine which would take 4 engineers 6 to 8 hrs all going well - not the check time itself.
This is happening more often now.....
This is happening more often now.....
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Well as you don't beleive there is a problem maybe you will stump up the cost of the scheduled flight that was required yesterday to take a replacement crewmember to HEL following a serious fumes incident that left the crew feeling ill & one unable to leave the hotel......or maybe he was imagining the vomiting. aching & headaches.
Oh, and he wasn't one of the drama queen five either.
Oh, and he wasn't one of the drama queen five either.
I'll bet the DFO is taking it seriously. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes if someone's involved in an accident because of this.
There is something very fascinating about this "fumes" thread. I have no experience with the Boeing 757 but I did spend the better part of 20 years on the BAe146.
I have to say that I never ever, ever had a problem in all of that time. I am now happily retired and find myself in the rudest of health. I did however meet a few pilots who were (apparently) affected by the phenomenon but never while flying with me as I recall. (Running the packs in full cold before putting the APU air on might have helped).
Now I know FAStoat and I have no doubt that what he is saying is quite true and he is not the only pilot that I have met who has blamed fumes for their ongoing problems.
So why is it that the rest of us don't have a problem? That is what the aviation medics should be investigating.
Perhaps my wartime upbringing of lots of cod liver oil and concentrated orange juice set me up for a healthy life!
I have to say that I never ever, ever had a problem in all of that time. I am now happily retired and find myself in the rudest of health. I did however meet a few pilots who were (apparently) affected by the phenomenon but never while flying with me as I recall. (Running the packs in full cold before putting the APU air on might have helped).
Now I know FAStoat and I have no doubt that what he is saying is quite true and he is not the only pilot that I have met who has blamed fumes for their ongoing problems.
So why is it that the rest of us don't have a problem? That is what the aviation medics should be investigating.
Perhaps my wartime upbringing of lots of cod liver oil and concentrated orange juice set me up for a healthy life!
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JW411, that's a very interesting point you've raised as it hits upon the question; "do we have different tolerance levels to this nasty stuff"? Perhaps the medical experts ought to examine that question
For my part, I can always detect the distinctive 'sweaty socks' type obnoxious smell as it enters the cabin but thankfully have not been physically affected by it. Normally, I would just isolate the offending pack immediately as the problem occurs but I have known situations where both packs have delivered the smell.
I certainly believe those of my colleagues who complain of adverse medical affects, and I also believe those pilots who say "I cannot smell what you say you can smell".
The complaint is now out in the open so perhaps it's time for a proper scientific study to determine 'what exactly is happening' and, 'is our health REALLY being affected by Organo Phosphate Poisoning'?
For my part, I can always detect the distinctive 'sweaty socks' type obnoxious smell as it enters the cabin but thankfully have not been physically affected by it. Normally, I would just isolate the offending pack immediately as the problem occurs but I have known situations where both packs have delivered the smell.
I certainly believe those of my colleagues who complain of adverse medical affects, and I also believe those pilots who say "I cannot smell what you say you can smell".
The complaint is now out in the open so perhaps it's time for a proper scientific study to determine 'what exactly is happening' and, 'is our health REALLY being affected by Organo Phosphate Poisoning'?
Last edited by sapco2; 12th May 2007 at 22:35.
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JW41.
How come my wife regularly gets a cold every 3 weeks or so during the winter and yet I haven't had one for about 10 years?
Medically we are all different.
It is begining to look as though about 30% of people are 'slow detoxifiers of organo phosphates' as one medical expert in the field recently explained it.
I just wish I had been part of the 70% - which you clearly belong to; I would much rather have had the odd cold instead of brain fog.
Thank you for your ability to understand other peoples misfortune; quite rare and decent in itself.
DB
How come my wife regularly gets a cold every 3 weeks or so during the winter and yet I haven't had one for about 10 years?
Medically we are all different.
It is begining to look as though about 30% of people are 'slow detoxifiers of organo phosphates' as one medical expert in the field recently explained it.
I just wish I had been part of the 70% - which you clearly belong to; I would much rather have had the odd cold instead of brain fog.
Thank you for your ability to understand other peoples misfortune; quite rare and decent in itself.
DB
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There is no question in my mind that fumes have affected my health.
Aside form the continuous flwo of the stuff in some airplanes, we are also getting the occasional major fumes event when the fumes pour onto the flight deck . Sometimes it's even detectable as a moist mist, especially after startup.
Organo phosphates aren't good for you, no doubt about it, but that's only one ingredient amongst dozens in this stuff which is bad for you.
Aside form the continuous flwo of the stuff in some airplanes, we are also getting the occasional major fumes event when the fumes pour onto the flight deck . Sometimes it's even detectable as a moist mist, especially after startup.
Organo phosphates aren't good for you, no doubt about it, but that's only one ingredient amongst dozens in this stuff which is bad for you.
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The leader of the Famous Five speaks.
I know who you are now but I'm not going to play that " Iknow where you live" game.
The point I was making is the hysteria wipped up by the whiners is the reason we are having so many smell incidents.
It's a bit funny how for five years we had none and now we have them every night, don't you think?
There are other things we need to be concerned about and this going on and on until your frothing at the mouth isin't helping anything.
We need to worry about protecting our jobs, now what say we change the discussion into that, Clyde?
Something POSITIVE for a change.
I know who you are now but I'm not going to play that " Iknow where you live" game.
The point I was making is the hysteria wipped up by the whiners is the reason we are having so many smell incidents.
It's a bit funny how for five years we had none and now we have them every night, don't you think?
There are other things we need to be concerned about and this going on and on until your frothing at the mouth isin't helping anything.
We need to worry about protecting our jobs, now what say we change the discussion into that, Clyde?
Something POSITIVE for a change.
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SQP1 I thought you were leaving the building. Will you stop banging on about the famous five refering to your work colleagues as characters from a childrens book is a bit demeaning. We get the picture that you don't have a problem with fumes, take the hint that others do. There have been fumes in these acft since I joined the company, not quite 5 years ago but not far off, They continue to be a problem, had a mild smell last night and one last week that was reasonably bad, I have had the smells on other acft that I have flown so I know what it smells like, the other acft were fixed, pretty much overnight whenever the smells were reported. Its been a known problem with these acft since they were in service the BA. Go back through the records and you will find it, or ask one of the ex BA crews. You must be reasonably convinced that there is a problem otherwise you would have spoken to Barrowboy when he offered. You know he is a straight shooter and has tried hard to improve life for all the DHL employees, including you, almost to the point of damaging his own career.
If you know something about our jobs being threatened, tell us more, try being straight rather than using it as a threat against someone who has worked out your identity. Are you close to someone in management who has persuaded you that you should scare the troops into ignoring a potentially dangerous and expensive problem?
If you know something about our jobs being threatened, tell us more, try being straight rather than using it as a threat against someone who has worked out your identity. Are you close to someone in management who has persuaded you that you should scare the troops into ignoring a potentially dangerous and expensive problem?