bmi (industrial action vote)

[Climb Limited]

mcdatabase

For God's sake, HOW MANY MORE TIMES...because those who do not work on the flight deck have absolutely no idea about the issues that are affecting the FLIGHT DECK crew.

It goes back to 'enough is enough'. It's not to do with 2.4% forced this year, it's to do with the failed promises, stringing along, lack of sensible dialogue etc etc that has carried on and on and on.

The ballot has drawn the management to the discussion table - is that such a crime?

[Miss Management]

mccdataprocessor

Your points are beginning to tire me GREATLY and I don't feel that you are paying attention to me or any of my colleagues on this website.
Please go back to YOUR kind and debate whatever you want, we PILOTS have now EVIDENTLY lost interest as to how ANYTHING we do may affect you!

I'm off out for a curry and that's that!!!

[mccdatabase]

For God's sake, HOW MANY MORE TIMES...because those who do not work on the flight deck have absolutely no idea about the issues that are affecting the FLIGHT DECK crew.
It goes back to 'enough is enough'. It's not to do with 2.4% forced this year, it's to do with the failed promises, stringing along, lack of sensible dialogue etc etc that has carried on and on and on.
The ballot has drawn the management to the discussion table - is that such a crime?

I have NEVER argued against the case for union/employee and management discussions to resolve some very unwelcome attacks on our terms and conditions and it is to be hoped that these impending talks will indeed resolve the issues that we all have , however I would question the wisdom of strike action as a means of forcing the company to back down, you can see from the tone of some of the posts on this thread that even the threat of strike action has our customers( the people who ultimately pay our wages ) transferring their business to other carriers, given the general state of the revenues and profits at the moment this is the LAST thing any of us should want, sadly there are those who patently DO NOT CARE about the future well being of the airline or the people who have invested many years in working for bmi through the good times and the bad. Reading some of the contributions on this thread makes me think we are back in the seventies when militants were the scourge of many industries, I did not expect to see it resurface thirty odd years later especially in well educated and normally sensible professionals (albeit in a tiny minority) these are the people who really need to ask themselves "do I want to continue working for this company if I get so screwed?". All I ask is please bear in mind any action the Pilot work force takes MAY have an effect on other staff in other areas, if the company is forced to find more money for pay or allowances, I agree that there are issues that must be resolved but different people voted for action for different reasons some about pensions ,some about 2.4% some about crew rosters, some about all three!! nevertheless dialogue is the way to go, strikes benefit no one in the long run


I will now await the input from Miss Management who thinks he/she is the only PILOT than can have an opinion. hope the curry is not as hot as his/her head!!!

[lexxity]

The reason is simple. I come here to debate Pilot issues. This is a Professional Pilots' chitchatty website and not titled Empoyees of the World Rumour Network.


If by some unlikely reason I wanted to debate Cabin Crew or Office Staff, or god forbid Security Staff welfare - please someone point me to their website if there is one.

So, I hope it is now clear to "others" that Pilots feel they have a different kind of fight on their hands from you and kindly therefore leave us to our own problems to solve and discuss amongst ourselves, as you would.

Consider yourself left. I shall now take my sorry self off to the lower echelons and leave you to debate your strike in peace.

BTW where on this website does it say that non-pilot airline employees cannot join in a debate? Last time I looked this was a free country that allowed freedom of speech I suggest if you do not like it you go off and set up your own site.

[keepitlit]

Mc Data,
During the end of 2002 I was issued a couple of letters saying I was to be made redundant along with stack of other good people, a rash decision made by the company which later resulted in some of us lucky to keep our jobs and those who weren’t got jobs very quickly.
At that point the company showed me how we were regarded and they showed their true colours.
At this point my attitude changed it became just a job with no prospects. I then became a private limited company all I want is to be paid the going rate after all we don’t have a profit/share and no extras or bonus.
As for loosing pax the management did a great job of that and saw them off with their NBM!

I do respect your concern for your colleges but no one was worried about me when I lined up in a twin burning £500 an hour on my IR test except maybe my bank Manager who is still laughing all the way to the bank literally!

Your happy to trust us with up to 200 POB every day so try have a little faith in us now and maybe after its all over you’ll find out the full story.

Rgds

K.I.L.

[pint'alfempty]

McD,

Here we go again......

It is the strong DEMOCRATIC show of intent of possible strike action that has forced the company to talk, not your 'roll over and tickle my belly' subservient approach.

[theresalwaysone]

Many of you keep saying, the company but who or what is the company? I see the company as me and you, my friends that I have worked with for many years. Please dont think the company is just the few arsholes that have ended up in management because they were friends of Bill Gilmore or they flew a few good base checks or they were ex BALPA officials. OK ex management then!

I know there are many things that need addressing in BMI but do you honestly think as professionals that strike action is the way forward, if you do your not as intelligent as I believed you to be. Let a strike be the final action, the management have got the message, dont worry about that.

I also think that Sir Michael should be dealing with this himself.

Please be wary of the people who will vote for a strike but its of no consequence to them if the company is damaged because they want to leave anyway or they are close to retirement. There are a lot of hidden aggendas here and if you are voting for a strike make sure you are voting for your reasons not the perverse reasons of others.

If it does come to a strike and I feel it should be delayed can you make it Christmas Eve please!

[brighton_rocks]

Originally Posted by Miss Management

mccdataprocessor

Your points are beginning to tire me GREATLY and I don't feel that you are paying attention to me or any of my colleagues on this website.
Please go back to YOUR kind and debate whatever you want, we PILOTS have now EVIDENTLY lost interest as to how ANYTHING we do may affect you!

I'm off out for a curry and that's that!!!

-Lets just hope Miss Management that your opinions and views haven't tired other colleagues too much or your fare paying passengers too greatly (the most important person in the airline) or it may be your last curry for a while....

With your attitude to your other crew members ever considered UPS or DHL - it would suit you to the ground....

[issi noho]

Originally Posted by mccdatabase

people who really need to ask themselves "do I want to continue working for this company if I get so screwed?". All I ask is please bear in mind any action the Pilot work force takes MAY have an effect on other staff in other areas,

Many pilots having witnessed the fiasco that is 'modular business model' would dearly love to give up 10+ years service and find a greener pasture, the problem is pilots work in the most ridiculous employment system in any industry (once we could have said after professional footballers but since they have sorted that contract issue we are the worst). What other professional leaving their current employer would have to start from the bottom again, irrespective of years in a job or relevant experience and depending on age may never achieve a command again. Add to that you may have to pay your current employer anything up to £12000 or so for the privilege you had of flying their customers around and you will just start to see why the pilots want to fix the place up rather than move house.

Now notice I said their not our, that's because the company hire my licence more than the individual, the only place where the person comes into it is they chose people who they think won't rock the boat and can generally get on with the rest of the staff, particularly the ones who you will be locked in a small room with. If the employer could get away with not hiring licenced professionals they would in the same way they would like machines instead of check in staff, minimal baggage handling and automated rostering systems and so on. There is already a move towards a multicrew licenced pilot which means that person will never have had to rely on their own instincts, training and initiative where todays pilots gained much valuable experience. Modern Aircraft are easier to handle than anything from the past, all devaluing the pilot but fortunately manufacturers still keep selling them to the Russians to keep us in the fight.

Now, moving on to industrial action and SMB. If anybody really believes this scenario wasn't talked through in a board meeting with SMB at the head is out with the fairies. The only thing you can assume is the possibility of a strike ballot and a positive result was considered an acceptable risk. What is not known is how far they are prepared to allow the situation to develop, so for all BMI customers who are reporting here their intent to fly with other carriers, sad as that is, the pilots at BMI group will be in a strange way grateful. I'm sure the actual bookings are down too and when the parties meet this will be a piece of information that management will have with them to hopefully ensure a constructive meeting.

There are more pawns on a chessboard than royalty, the odd thing about BMI is the top is both King and Queen, but that shouldn't mean all the pawns have to fight amongst themselves.

Sensible debate between anybody interested enough to post and remember that the top of your organisation decides what is acceptable to try to railroad on a workforce and at what point concessions are cost effective.

[frontcheck]

Whilst I agree there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed between the pilots and bmi , I do not believe strike action is the way to go. Customers have lost confidence in the company , mostly because of the confused and knee-jerked way the NBM was introduced and in reality have little idea who bmi is. A bit mainline, a bit baby, a bit long-haul, a bit regional a bit Star Alliance so to hear that the few loyal business customers we have left (just look at the load factor/yield figures for the last 12 months) are re-scheduling to other carriers disheartens me. The consequencies of any strike action (for however short) will take weeks , months , possibly years to repair. So if industrial action takes place , spare a thought for your colleagues in the Terminal , they will be the ones having to deal with customers from cancelled flights ,they will be the ones who have to tell the elderly Granny that she cant get to Australia to see her grandchild ,they will be the ones who are not governed by maximum working hours and if/when flights start again they will be the ones still dealing with the fall-out for a long time. We all have a role to play in the industry and no group should feel superior to another.
Oh and by the way, the guys in the terminal get paid £5.89 an hour !!!

[issi noho]

Do you really see doing nothing but carry on with one misguided management decision after another as an option? This isn't war, nobody is searching for WMD, this ballot was what managers had decided was necessary before negotiation could commence. There is plenty of time unless managers have already decided to test resolve in yet another misguided decision.

BMI needs direction but do you think the best person to fix it is the person who has done so much to damage it?

I hope somebody from management reads your post and notes your legitimate concerns but you like us are regarded as a cost rather than a personal interface with the customer.

Just out of interest do you know how much an Indian call centre worker gets or if they have any knowledge of what may happen?

We're all pawns but some are cheaper than others. Our commonality is we're all the cheapest they could get to do a particular job, our argument is that it never used to be so.

[Red 69]

Kick Nigel out, he's an accountant not a businessman. I think he's demonstrated that to everybody now. Pay James Hogan what he needs to come back. He turned Gulf Air round in the time he was there and I believe he's back on the market again. I wonder how bmi would have been now had he stayed in the first place? (Or second!!!!! ;-) ) Certainly not in the mess it is now.

[Dr. Spin]

issi noho,
Generally well said, but it must be remembered that a 'seniority system' has advantages in the form of job stability. You need some kind of loyalty scheme to prevent exactly the exodus that would otherwise ensue without it. It inherently breeds company loyalty in an individual lacking in such.

It may be outdated but it works. Granted some airlines do operate without such a scheme but rarely are they in a mature state, and do so only to fast-track commands.

[bobmij]

You need some kind of loyalty scheme to prevent exactly the exodus that would otherwise ensue without it. It may be outdated but it works

err, that'll be the circa 80 pilots that have left left bmi in the last 18 months to go to other large operators. All senior FO's (+the odd captain), potential captains with +3000 hrs and an airbus rating. Really advantageous for the company.
By the way, has Ge*ff "Hello, is that Gulf Air" Lnkr had anything to say since the count.

[Dr. Spin]

Originally Posted by bobmij

All senior FO's (+the odd captain).

As an f/o, albeit a senior one, you have nothing to loose by going. As a captain it's much more difficult to take a voluntary demotion. The thought of spending 10 years to regain your command being a little too much to bare. Without the seniority scheme the number of captains leaving could easily have matched the 80 f/o's. The numbers leaving could have doubled!

[bmimainline]

I'll judge my union on the basis of how responsible it is with the mandate it has been given. It is a shame it has had to come to a ballot for industrial action. There is no point in making a demand on a company which it can't afford. I think it is true to say that the pilots have the management's attention. Let's send a clear message to them that THEIR behavioiur is not acceptable.

[AvianceUK]

£500 is what Captains get if they work on a day off - operative words being 'day off', they do not have to, but are prepared to give up some of their free time to support the operation. In return the company rewards them the (pay attention now) minimum amount they can get away with in order to ensure that enough of them do so if asked, else the program would have collapsed years ago and none of bmibaby would still be in jobs.

ONE DAY OFF!! Bloody hell!! A ground worker would have to work say 50 hours o/t ( without tax ), 70 with it!! To earn that kind of money a month..... Well In my region!!!! ( Low paid you see )!!!!!!!

It kinda amazes me how worthless us 'non-pilots' are to some.....

OK, it's a 'professional pilot rumorer network', BUT look at the forums that are here..... WE are here!!!!!!!!!

Without you, airplane goes nowhere... BUT equally, without us, airplane goes nowhere!!!! Do you work understaffed??? NO, But ground crew do! Try doing your job with 10 skilled staff down.... THEN complain!!!

I totally understand your plight, BUT, I hate to see resentment through the ranks, and colleagues arguing against each other....

Big up the BMI pilots!!!

Hope the staff get the recognition of their input sooner rather than later!!!

[alterego]

Non pilots are not worthless, at all. Indeed we are all needed in the team. However, it is the pilots who are hardest to replace & train and they have ultimate responsibilty for the aircraft and passengers, etc.

In Baby this ballot is not only for the good of the pilots but the cabin crew will also benefit as it is their sector pay that is alsobeing taxed more. They are even less able to afford a bigger tax bill. Hopefully all BMI staff will be better off as we show management that they have to respect ALL staff.

[Max Angle]

It's a great shame to see this thread bought down to the level of "we are better than you", "I paid £75000 for my training" and "we are harder to replace" etc. etc. As a long serving bmi (mainline) pilot and very much a member of a big team that gets the passengers from A to B I have always tried to treat others at work, be they loaders, a/c cleaners, dispatchers, other pilots and cabin crew etc., with courtesy and respect and have generally been treated in the same manner. I would urge those posters above who are indulging themselves in a worthless playground shouting match to desist, you are not helping your cause or your colleagues. How much anybody earns, what they paid to get trained is irrelevant and despite what may think nobody is as hard to replace as they think they are.

The fact is the pilots signed an agreement with the company which they have reneged on and most of us who voted YES did so reluctantly to force them to talk to us. It looks like that will now happen and hopefully the talks will bring a resolution that is satisfactory, if not BALPA have a mandate to take strike action which they will use.

The pilots have no dispute with anybody else in the company so please don't create one on this forum. Cool heads all round please.

[Val d'Isere]

Only one thing wrong with this thread.



The usual game of "Spot the Management Poster" is a smidgin too easy to be even slightly entertaining.

Low post tally, and/or joined Aug 2006, dead give away. Probably means "This post is hardly worth reading".

"You pilots think you're better than us".......Yep, that's crude enough to be typical management stirring. Divert attention from the real issue. Create bad feeling amongst the rank and file. Get em at each others throats.

"You'll bring the company down". Err, no. Your management will bring the company down. In fact, they've been doing their best to bring it down with incompetence and daft policies for ages, according to reports here and elsewhere.


Don't take the bait, people. Concentrate on the issue.