bmi (industrial action vote)
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Originally Posted by *********
I work with one of the country's leading legal pensions practices and noticed an item on today's electronic bulletin from a reference service widely used in the profession featuring the proposed increase in pension contributions for BMI Mainline pilots. I can say that everyone in my department who saw the item was astounded by the reported proposal by the company to increase contributions from 10% to 18% plus.
Could you clarify the situation?
Thanks, Yarpy
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Sorry to go back to him, but Vol7 do you really think working to rule and no discretion is not actually more annoying for the staff on the ground? At least with a full scale down tools you know there are no flights and not just some here and none there.
On another tack, Mr Lexx is a bmi frequent flier and he was shocked when he heard about the extra pention contributions and higher tax code on flight pay, he gives his full support, as do I. (Mr L is an accountant btw.)
On another tack, Mr Lexx is a bmi frequent flier and he was shocked when he heard about the extra pention contributions and higher tax code on flight pay, he gives his full support, as do I. (Mr L is an accountant btw.)
I believe an undertaking that the pension fund contribution would decrease again "when" the deficit has been cleared has been given, the company is making up 2/3 of the deficit, with increased member contributions making up for the other 1/3, remember that the contribution increase of 18% plus is for pilots who want to retire at 55,and there will be a 40% tax allowance to deduct from that increase, you can pay less of an increase and work a bit longer if you like, and spare a thought for the non flying staff who must work until 65 and whose contributions have gone up from around 6.2% to 11.5% from a much lower salary level and for a 1/60th accrual rate(unless you are willing to have a lower accrual rate -1/80ths- and a max 2.5% growth rate if you freeze your fund or retire!!) I believe it is time for a reality check with regard to the pension fund, it is still worth having (dont forget the death in service benefits and widows pension that goes with the package) and whilst the management of many issues has been woeful the pension issue is not of their making entirely, there has been a distinct lack of information from the trustees who have not verified the companys calculations with regard to deficit and I would be interested in knowing how much AON 
consulting creams from the fund for their fee, remember if you lose or pull out of the final salary scheme you will not (unless extreme luck is on your side !) get into another one, ask any independent financial consultant or expert how much value they put on being in a final salary scheme these days, you might well get a surprise, we will all retire someday and it will be too late to have regrets by then!!
, a little (lot ?) of pain now may be worth it in the longer term, at least they have offered us all 4 different options( 1/ higher contributions with no loss of accrual or benefits /growth,,or 2/ no increase in contributions but a lower accrual and max 2.5% growth, or 3/ a combination of option 1 & 2 ie for pilots a 2% increase in contribution and change of accrual rate from 1/50 to 1/60 per year served, or 4/ leave the scheme freezing your fund with no loss of accrued pension Each individual can choose for any of these options so it is not just a take it or leave it situation , I think it is hard to see what else they could do to keep the final salary scheme alive (and it IS WORTH keeping alive!!) HOWEVER the pay issue is an entirely different matter and enforced awards with no negotiation or consultation is never the way to get the workforce on side, I fear that this time Nige and Co are about to learn the important lesson that even the most dedicated and long suffering members of staff will say ENOUGH !! if they continue to have the urine extracted from them in this manner
I will now stand back and await the inevitable panning from the angry mob
consulting creams from the fund for their fee, remember if you lose or pull out of the final salary scheme you will not (unless extreme luck is on your side !) get into another one, ask any independent financial consultant or expert how much value they put on being in a final salary scheme these days, you might well get a surprise, we will all retire someday and it will be too late to have regrets by then!! , a little (lot ?) of pain now may be worth it in the longer term, at least they have offered us all 4 different options( 1/ higher contributions with no loss of accrual or benefits /growth,,or 2/ no increase in contributions but a lower accrual and max 2.5% growth, or 3/ a combination of option 1 & 2 ie for pilots a 2% increase in contribution and change of accrual rate from 1/50 to 1/60 per year served, or 4/ leave the scheme freezing your fund with no loss of accrued pension Each individual can choose for any of these options so it is not just a take it or leave it situation , I think it is hard to see what else they could do to keep the final salary scheme alive (and it IS WORTH keeping alive!!) HOWEVER the pay issue is an entirely different matter and enforced awards with no negotiation or consultation is never the way to get the workforce on side, I fear that this time Nige and Co are about to learn the important lesson that even the most dedicated and long suffering members of staff will say ENOUGH !! if they continue to have the urine extracted from them in this mannerI will now stand back and await the inevitable panning from the angry mob
Last edited by mccdatabase; 28th Jul 2006 at 10:11.
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Good luck guys and dolls do the right thing I just wish that all the unions could get together and hammer out the problem with bmi management sorry MISS management. All the other departments are behind you 100%.
I find some of the outside comments disturbing no one wants to put the airline in jeopardy we just want what’s fair in an industry that has been ravaged over the last few years, Sept 11th ,fuel surcharges, landing fees, tax and insurance to name but a few and this is being used against us.
Some very bad decisions have been made in the past few years I wish they would just admit it put things right get the staff behind them again and move on.
I remember a blanket pay rise for everyone back around the early 90’s that was a great boost to moral after another difficult lean period in aviation.
I find some of the outside comments disturbing no one wants to put the airline in jeopardy we just want what’s fair in an industry that has been ravaged over the last few years, Sept 11th ,fuel surcharges, landing fees, tax and insurance to name but a few and this is being used against us.
Some very bad decisions have been made in the past few years I wish they would just admit it put things right get the staff behind them again and move on.
I remember a blanket pay rise for everyone back around the early 90’s that was a great boost to moral after another difficult lean period in aviation.
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I dont see why you should get a panning, I thought you expressed the situation pretty well.
What with bmi, BA, BA Con and flybe all boiling up (plus Ryanair?) I reckon we're in for an autumn hotter than the summer!
What with bmi, BA, BA Con and flybe all boiling up (plus Ryanair?) I reckon we're in for an autumn hotter than the summer!
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Regional
Guys,
Whilst theres much talk about mainline and Baby, I'd like to point out that the regional pilots are right behind you
The regional bosses have been equally dismissive of BMI regional pilot's requests of merely discussing a settlement, let alone negotiating one. We are being ignored and treated like children.
Do not underestimate the level of feeling at BMI Regional.
Bring on the ballot!
Whilst theres much talk about mainline and Baby, I'd like to point out that the regional pilots are right behind you
The regional bosses have been equally dismissive of BMI regional pilot's requests of merely discussing a settlement, let alone negotiating one. We are being ignored and treated like children.
Do not underestimate the level of feeling at BMI Regional.
Bring on the ballot!
Last edited by ASBY; 3rd Aug 2006 at 17:14.
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Having read lexxity's post re VOL7, here's some interesting info;
The ballot paper I received only asked one question - 'are you in favour of industrial action?'
It did not ask me whether I was in favour of industrial action short of strike action. So work to rule etc etc are probably not options that are being considered.
For the benefit of VOL7 - unofficial industrial action such as work to rule, carrying full tanks, refusing discretion leaves individuals open to disciplinary proceedings and possibly being dismissed. This is a serious situation and BALPA are ensuring the pilots remain within the protection of industrial relations statutes.
The ballot paper I received only asked one question - 'are you in favour of industrial action?'
It did not ask me whether I was in favour of industrial action short of strike action. So work to rule etc etc are probably not options that are being considered.
For the benefit of VOL7 - unofficial industrial action such as work to rule, carrying full tanks, refusing discretion leaves individuals open to disciplinary proceedings and possibly being dismissed. This is a serious situation and BALPA are ensuring the pilots remain within the protection of industrial relations statutes.
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Some good recent posts here, excellent.
Just a thought. I have never seen an airline without pilots, has anyone???
Just read the diatribe to "Dear Colleagues"... in the crew rooms. Lots of questions arise, but mainly why should we be equal to all other employees in the company. If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
If we as pilots made the biggest mistake.....? Now there IS a difference and we should be treated DIFFERENTLY because of it.
Also, why should we be understanding towards the company? We've been here 4 years and conditions have continously worsened. Can't blame JR any more!
What's in it for us? Why talk in September or April? We are here and now. We want what's rightfully ours NOW. Our pay has nothing to do with profit! Our pay - like fuel - like maintenance - like insurance, aircraft leasing, catering, ATC charges, etc... should be part of the expenditure of the business, not profit related.
The company doesn't say to the fueller, well we can't pay you what you want now, maybe later. They can't say that to ATC, maintenance or anyone else indeed - BUT US THE PILOTS. The primadonnas. The expensive bully-able crowd.
When you call an electrician to your house, you pay the going rate. You don't ask him to consider your financial position!
We should equally be paid the going rate right this instance, not 'perhaps' later.
If the company is unable to meet it's expenditure, then unfortunately it has to close. Clear cut and fair. We find other jobs that can and will pay us the going rate.
We don't need this dispute. No one does.
The management are the cause of it and I'm getting tired.
MM
Just a thought. I have never seen an airline without pilots, has anyone???
Just read the diatribe to "Dear Colleagues"... in the crew rooms. Lots of questions arise, but mainly why should we be equal to all other employees in the company. If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
If we as pilots made the biggest mistake.....? Now there IS a difference and we should be treated DIFFERENTLY because of it.
Also, why should we be understanding towards the company? We've been here 4 years and conditions have continously worsened. Can't blame JR any more!
What's in it for us? Why talk in September or April? We are here and now. We want what's rightfully ours NOW. Our pay has nothing to do with profit! Our pay - like fuel - like maintenance - like insurance, aircraft leasing, catering, ATC charges, etc... should be part of the expenditure of the business, not profit related.
The company doesn't say to the fueller, well we can't pay you what you want now, maybe later. They can't say that to ATC, maintenance or anyone else indeed - BUT US THE PILOTS. The primadonnas. The expensive bully-able crowd.
When you call an electrician to your house, you pay the going rate. You don't ask him to consider your financial position!
We should equally be paid the going rate right this instance, not 'perhaps' later.
If the company is unable to meet it's expenditure, then unfortunately it has to close. Clear cut and fair. We find other jobs that can and will pay us the going rate.
We don't need this dispute. No one does.
The management are the cause of it and I'm getting tired.
MM
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Originally Posted by Miss Management
If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
It really depends on your base level salary as to whether you can afford it or not, can you not afford to have a properly funded pension scheme ?, I was certainly not trying to divide and rule , quite the opposite in fact!, I am a firm believer in "combined employee group" negotiations, the one thing that the management would not want would be a united workforce ALL standing firm for the same goal!! I was merely drawing your attention to plight that other employee groups within bmi are in, we are all in the same boat when it comes to the pension, is this ballot for action about the enforced pay award or the increase in pension contributions ?
Miss Management what if an Engineer made the mistake of his/her life? the best they could hope for is a 10 year stretch for manslaughter, so we ALL have an important part to play, Please do not try and give the impression that one group is more special than any other and therefore deserves a greater (in percentage terms ) pay rise. Try not fall into the divide and rule trap, you will only be helping management win with that attitude
Miss Management what if an Engineer made the mistake of his/her life? the best they could hope for is a 10 year stretch for manslaughter, so we ALL have an important part to play, Please do not try and give the impression that one group is more special than any other and therefore deserves a greater (in percentage terms ) pay rise. Try not fall into the divide and rule trap, you will only be helping management win with that attitude
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mccdatabase
I almost completely agree with you.
The odd one out is the engineer of course, as he's doing a front line job too.
Of course his life's mistake could be quite noisy, expensive or even fatal for others. That is why engineers should not be treated like office staff either.
So, pilots and engineers should be regarded as different from the rest.
Look how are management are regarded. They are on a different deal altogether.
The diatribe didn't say that management are also part of this 2.4% lark. Should it have? Should they be also part of "most employee groups that appear to have tacitly accepted the 2.4% award"? If not why not?
Balpa's communication of the 26th July says otherwise. It says that other staff groups are "unhappy about the imposition of the corporate pay award".
Who knows?
I almost completely agree with you.
The odd one out is the engineer of course, as he's doing a front line job too.
Of course his life's mistake could be quite noisy, expensive or even fatal for others. That is why engineers should not be treated like office staff either.
So, pilots and engineers should be regarded as different from the rest.
Look how are management are regarded. They are on a different deal altogether.
The diatribe didn't say that management are also part of this 2.4% lark. Should it have? Should they be also part of "most employee groups that appear to have tacitly accepted the 2.4% award"? If not why not?
Balpa's communication of the 26th July says otherwise. It says that other staff groups are "unhappy about the imposition of the corporate pay award".
Who knows?
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy112
I'd like to ask you a genuine question - WHY are you paying £260 for a flex economy ticket when you have to pay for your own tea and coffee? I don't get it. With the greatest respect why do you not vote with your feet?
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Originally Posted by keepitlit
I think Vol got the message,teeth back in at the read guys,right whos next!
A typicall response it seems "if you don't agree with us your not worth listening to"
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As for disciplinary action for refusing to sell days off or go into discretion I have never heard such rubbish.
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Lexx of course this would be a preferred course of action the company would still struggle if crews did this but everyone else would still be in a job, dispatchers wouldn't be sent home, cabin crew would still get sector pay etc etc and the company would still have something they need to address.
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Originally Posted by mccdatabase
remember that the contribution increase of 18% plus is for pilots who want to retire at 55,
HOT OFF THE PRESS
The mainline ballots will go out on the 3rd August and the ballot will last for 3 weeks. Action to be taken within 28 days of closure (but can be extended by mutual consent) With the statutory 7 day notice period of stoppages factored in this means no disruption until 31st August at the earliest. Although remember that any 'baby' action my be slightly earlier as the ballot is already in progress.
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VOL7 - if you don't agree with us your not worth listening to
Let this problem be sorted by the professional pilots of these airlines. As someone above nearly said what's an anti-pilot doing in aviation in the first place? You do have to question that.
Have a good week end
:zzz
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Hi All,
I've heard from several people over the past few days that NT has stated he would like to make an example of the bmibaby pilot workforce in order to quash any uprising by mainline or regional. In fact, I heard one person say the NT has stated he would 'let baby fold' rather than give in to demands !
Now, while I believe that this is just the company progaganda machine grinding into action, it begs the question ..... why the hell couldn't BALPA synchronise the ballots for maximum effect ?
All this sitatuion does is to put more pressure on the baby work force ... and the company knows this ... hence the reason the TB also sent a letter to cabin crew effectively telling them that those nasty pilots were putting their jobs at risk !
Also the same reason that command assessments until further notice. This has nothing to do with industrial action (we can barely crew the aircraft we have now) ... its just the divide and conquer tictac again.
BALPA - is there any way that all 3 ballot (baby, mainline and regional) results could be announced at the same time ???????
I've heard from several people over the past few days that NT has stated he would like to make an example of the bmibaby pilot workforce in order to quash any uprising by mainline or regional. In fact, I heard one person say the NT has stated he would 'let baby fold' rather than give in to demands !
Now, while I believe that this is just the company progaganda machine grinding into action, it begs the question ..... why the hell couldn't BALPA synchronise the ballots for maximum effect ?
All this sitatuion does is to put more pressure on the baby work force ... and the company knows this ... hence the reason the TB also sent a letter to cabin crew effectively telling them that those nasty pilots were putting their jobs at risk !
Also the same reason that command assessments until further notice. This has nothing to do with industrial action (we can barely crew the aircraft we have now) ... its just the divide and conquer tictac again.
BALPA - is there any way that all 3 ballot (baby, mainline and regional) results could be announced at the same time ???????
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Vol 7 is right in some respects.
By definition, a work to rule cannot possibly result in a disciplinary. How can it if you haven't broken any rules?
This is all about making the management realise how much this airline, particularly bmibaby relies on 'good will' to muddle on through from one day to the next. Good will is unquantifiable until it is completely taken away.
A strike would certainly demonstrate this and I hole-heartedly support the 'enough is enough' campaign, but I feel that a protracted and less 'gentlemanly' obeyance of the playground rules should not be ruled out.
This is a path that must be followed. Lose this battle and you'll never win another one again.
By definition, a work to rule cannot possibly result in a disciplinary. How can it if you haven't broken any rules?
This is all about making the management realise how much this airline, particularly bmibaby relies on 'good will' to muddle on through from one day to the next. Good will is unquantifiable until it is completely taken away.
A strike would certainly demonstrate this and I hole-heartedly support the 'enough is enough' campaign, but I feel that a protracted and less 'gentlemanly' obeyance of the playground rules should not be ruled out.
This is a path that must be followed. Lose this battle and you'll never win another one again.
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I will say this once and once only............
im very dissapointed in the recent post, havnt read all of it due to i dont tend to read utter rubbish!
some of the posts i did though make me laugh, one in paticular:-
"""Just read the diatribe to "Dear Colleagues"... in the crew rooms. Lots of questions arise, but mainly why should we be equal to all other employees in the company. If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
If we as pilots made the biggest mistake.....? Now there IS a difference and we should be treated DIFFERENTLY because of it."""
Hmm a couple of points, the security staff do not get your wages, way below what you get - they are too equal too your S U P E R I O R role it would seem, oh and for those that dont know they make sure bombs and knives do not go on board YOUR AIRCRAFT!!!
If you do decide to strike the real grafters (the guys that work 15hour shifts boarding OUR flights) to earn a living will be under alot of pressure and strain from pax, i guess you wouldnt understand that side of it - by the way these are the people that pay yours and ours wages!
We are supposed to be a team, pilots (bar a few) think they are better than the rest - WAKE UP BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT !!!
As you can see i am very angry, disturbed and very annoyed! its not like you earn the most operationally or anything is it??!!
If you dont like it BUZZ OFF!!
im very dissapointed in the recent post, havnt read all of it due to i dont tend to read utter rubbish!
some of the posts i did though make me laugh, one in paticular:-
"""Just read the diatribe to "Dear Colleagues"... in the crew rooms. Lots of questions arise, but mainly why should we be equal to all other employees in the company. If some secretary makes her biggest mistake of her life what could happen? A late letter to someone? The wrong letter's sent to the wrong person? Something is published late or too early?
If we as pilots made the biggest mistake.....? Now there IS a difference and we should be treated DIFFERENTLY because of it."""
Hmm a couple of points, the security staff do not get your wages, way below what you get - they are too equal too your S U P E R I O R role it would seem, oh and for those that dont know they make sure bombs and knives do not go on board YOUR AIRCRAFT!!!
If you do decide to strike the real grafters (the guys that work 15hour shifts boarding OUR flights) to earn a living will be under alot of pressure and strain from pax, i guess you wouldnt understand that side of it - by the way these are the people that pay yours and ours wages!
We are supposed to be a team, pilots (bar a few) think they are better than the rest - WAKE UP BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT !!!
As you can see i am very angry, disturbed and very annoyed! its not like you earn the most operationally or anything is it??!!
If you dont like it BUZZ OFF!!
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Various middle managers doing the rounds at several Baby bases today in an attempt to sway the votes of individuals. Stable doors and horses sprang to mind as most pilots will have already returned their ballot papers.
I have some sympathy with these individuals as they are caught between a rock and a hard place - trying to sell the company line dictated from above but having little conviction of believing it themselves.
What was apparent was the first hint of real concern starting to surface - perhaps having been slowly inched to the precipice and seen a glimpse of the abyss below they are not so confident about avoiding the fall.
I would think the pyschological pressure will steadily build as the 3 weeks to the ballot result slowly passes.
I have some sympathy with these individuals as they are caught between a rock and a hard place - trying to sell the company line dictated from above but having little conviction of believing it themselves.
What was apparent was the first hint of real concern starting to surface - perhaps having been slowly inched to the precipice and seen a glimpse of the abyss below they are not so confident about avoiding the fall.
I would think the pyschological pressure will steadily build as the 3 weeks to the ballot result slowly passes.
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COME ON BOYS & GIRLS
I have just spent ages wading through all this lot. As a senior BMI mailnline pilot(as a senior manger described me recently) I would like to add a few points.
The last well meant but misguided post is one of the reasons we are all experiencing eroded conditions and salaries. Yes, we are all part of a team but the marketplace dictates salaries, as with everything else (have you noticed the price of oill!) If you think security officers are that important, be one,. I thought being a pilot was very important that why i chose to be one!
Unlike many of you I was an airport labourer, i had to work for a few pounds a week and teated like absolute **** but not so i could be an airline pilot and be told that security people are just as important. Of course they are important, so is the lavatory cleaner(and I have done that too) but the king pins in an airline operation are the flight deck crew, thats not an opinion, its an obvious fact, if it isnt lets see Bye and Turner operate a service to Palma because I will gladly do their jobs for half the pay and the difference is i could, maybe not as well, ( and so could any of our pilots.)
That smart Irish pratt said PILOTS ARE THE MOST OVERPAID, OVER COSSETED WORKERS IN THE WORLD. This gives you a clue as to where the rot has crept in--- BUDGET AIRLINES. To operate a budget airline everything needs to be at budget costs but I am not a budget pilot and neither are most of my colleagues. Its about time BALPA actually took a stance on actually being a union and made airlines realise that pilots rank with lawyers and,doctors etc not security officers. It would also be good if BALPA could remind them that Lawyers and Doctors (GPs) dont work much after 5 pm and have weekends off, not too many of them are required to night stop in crap hotels or do a six monthly skills check or meet class one medical standards.Not many doctors and lawyers are forced to retire at 60/65.
And finally not many Doctors and lawyers can kill their clients 100-200 at a time.
Budget airlines have brought about a decline in our working conditions (the fatigue of aircrew documet needs a complete re-write as it was written for BEA DC3 pilots), pay , VALUE and RESPECT. I am all for cheap air travel but i dont notice budget mortgages, wifes or children! I dont want to see pilots subsidising air travel because thats what you are all doing--so get real and stand up for the profession--but please dont strike, only as a last alternative because we are in such a unique position you could in a week ruin what has taken a lifetime to build-- please consider a work to rule first.
The last well meant but misguided post is one of the reasons we are all experiencing eroded conditions and salaries. Yes, we are all part of a team but the marketplace dictates salaries, as with everything else (have you noticed the price of oill!) If you think security officers are that important, be one,. I thought being a pilot was very important that why i chose to be one!
Unlike many of you I was an airport labourer, i had to work for a few pounds a week and teated like absolute **** but not so i could be an airline pilot and be told that security people are just as important. Of course they are important, so is the lavatory cleaner(and I have done that too) but the king pins in an airline operation are the flight deck crew, thats not an opinion, its an obvious fact, if it isnt lets see Bye and Turner operate a service to Palma because I will gladly do their jobs for half the pay and the difference is i could, maybe not as well, ( and so could any of our pilots.)
That smart Irish pratt said PILOTS ARE THE MOST OVERPAID, OVER COSSETED WORKERS IN THE WORLD. This gives you a clue as to where the rot has crept in--- BUDGET AIRLINES. To operate a budget airline everything needs to be at budget costs but I am not a budget pilot and neither are most of my colleagues. Its about time BALPA actually took a stance on actually being a union and made airlines realise that pilots rank with lawyers and,doctors etc not security officers. It would also be good if BALPA could remind them that Lawyers and Doctors (GPs) dont work much after 5 pm and have weekends off, not too many of them are required to night stop in crap hotels or do a six monthly skills check or meet class one medical standards.Not many doctors and lawyers are forced to retire at 60/65.
And finally not many Doctors and lawyers can kill their clients 100-200 at a time.
Budget airlines have brought about a decline in our working conditions (the fatigue of aircrew documet needs a complete re-write as it was written for BEA DC3 pilots), pay , VALUE and RESPECT. I am all for cheap air travel but i dont notice budget mortgages, wifes or children! I dont want to see pilots subsidising air travel because thats what you are all doing--so get real and stand up for the profession--but please dont strike, only as a last alternative because we are in such a unique position you could in a week ruin what has taken a lifetime to build-- please consider a work to rule first.