Jet2 Sector Pay?
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"Suspect your accountant is behind the curve. I discussed this today with Inland Revenue, as was. My code already changed to the new agreement"
Actually she didn't know, neither did the lady in BFS as they were waiting for more information from the revenue prior to issuing advice to members. But I thought I said that.
Regarding this tax relief for BALPA subs. My accountant, BFS and the information on BALPA's website all state that this was by agreement between BALPA and the revenue. Maybe they are all wrong.
Actually she didn't know, neither did the lady in BFS as they were waiting for more information from the revenue prior to issuing advice to members. But I thought I said that.
Regarding this tax relief for BALPA subs. My accountant, BFS and the information on BALPA's website all state that this was by agreement between BALPA and the revenue. Maybe they are all wrong.
.
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“What proportion of Jet2 pilots would you expect to be prepared to join BALPA?”
Very few. As posted earlier we have a relatively inexperienced workforce compared to other similar airlines. Most have not flown either for a different more mature airline at similar level, or for a civilian operator at all. They are less experienced and therefore more compliant.
And what if 50% + 1 join the T & G? Do we get some union official assigned to us to negotiate on our behalf? How is he/she going negotiate on our behalf without knowing what we want? He could ask silverhawk for advice, but what I want might not coincide with what silverhawk wants. Our union man is unlikely to have extensive experience of other operators, because the T & G don’t represent any other airlines bar DHL that I know of. Our union man is more likely to go for what the majority wants and if the majority are cabin crew then FO’s will be on £1 a sector, Capts on £2 and CC on £6 – since they work harder and actually generate income.
Rather than waste time and effort contradicting each other, we ought to form a CC. If that means by some democratic process because so many of you want to be on the CC, so much the better. If a CC was formed but management refused to co-operate, then is the time to turn to unions. Maybe the T & G, but at least the CC would have some direction over the union negotiator.
Very few. As posted earlier we have a relatively inexperienced workforce compared to other similar airlines. Most have not flown either for a different more mature airline at similar level, or for a civilian operator at all. They are less experienced and therefore more compliant.
And what if 50% + 1 join the T & G? Do we get some union official assigned to us to negotiate on our behalf? How is he/she going negotiate on our behalf without knowing what we want? He could ask silverhawk for advice, but what I want might not coincide with what silverhawk wants. Our union man is unlikely to have extensive experience of other operators, because the T & G don’t represent any other airlines bar DHL that I know of. Our union man is more likely to go for what the majority wants and if the majority are cabin crew then FO’s will be on £1 a sector, Capts on £2 and CC on £6 – since they work harder and actually generate income.
Rather than waste time and effort contradicting each other, we ought to form a CC. If that means by some democratic process because so many of you want to be on the CC, so much the better. If a CC was formed but management refused to co-operate, then is the time to turn to unions. Maybe the T & G, but at least the CC would have some direction over the union negotiator.
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Maat, I never mentioned Balpa subs. Only the FREA.
It seems the role of the fleet representatives is to be modified to a broader status. I suspect this is a ploy to engage the workforce in a manner less influential than union representation. Do not fall for this tactic.
It seems the role of the fleet representatives is to be modified to a broader status. I suspect this is a ploy to engage the workforce in a manner less influential than union representation. Do not fall for this tactic.
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Ardacre & Maat,
If less than 50% join BALPA then it's a non-starter. Also, I'm not convinced that BALPA want us because they have easier wars to win. They are at a geographical disadvantage too - dragging a reluctant BALPA official up to our Northern bases regularly may be difficult.
The T&G is cheap, therefore there's little to lose. We should hope to get well above 50%. If it's a disaster, BALPA is still there. Even if it isn't a disaster, BALPA is still there if we want to move, and at the very least we would have the basis of an organised and communicating group to make the change.
A CC with no union seems to be what Maat is suggesting. If this is a staff association, historically they have been disastrous in aviation. I don't think that NO union is an option, even to start with.
The T&G union man may be unused to airlines but I think this is comparatively unimportant at first. The expertise and knowledge of the industry will lie with our hard-working CC. The union man is there only to help us with generic union procedures and to bring in the heavies when we need some muscle, and that's a fair way down the road. Simple communication is our first challenge.
A "few decades" ago BALPA brought in as General Secretary an ex miners' union leader, Mark Young. He was a bit of a cultural shock, but he was brilliant and kicked the airlines as never before. It was easier to teach aviation to a born union man than teach unions to an aviation expert. Perhaps we can educate a T&G heavyweight into our ways?
Pilot Pete,
You did hit a raw nerve, but no offence taken! In a previous company, BALPA had 51% membership and management colluded at starving the other 49% of information. It's poor when you receive absolutely zero first-hand communication about pay awards, hotel changes, FREA, etc.
If Government operated like BALPA, then only Labour voters would ever get to hear about anything at all, good or bad. I feel whichever union is "in power", it has an obligation to communicate, or at least encourage the company to do so. It can be good PR, along the lines of "See what we've done for you, why don't you join?". "We aren't talking to you because you aren't paying" is pretty negative.
If less than 50% join BALPA then it's a non-starter. Also, I'm not convinced that BALPA want us because they have easier wars to win. They are at a geographical disadvantage too - dragging a reluctant BALPA official up to our Northern bases regularly may be difficult.
The T&G is cheap, therefore there's little to lose. We should hope to get well above 50%. If it's a disaster, BALPA is still there. Even if it isn't a disaster, BALPA is still there if we want to move, and at the very least we would have the basis of an organised and communicating group to make the change.
A CC with no union seems to be what Maat is suggesting. If this is a staff association, historically they have been disastrous in aviation. I don't think that NO union is an option, even to start with.
The T&G union man may be unused to airlines but I think this is comparatively unimportant at first. The expertise and knowledge of the industry will lie with our hard-working CC. The union man is there only to help us with generic union procedures and to bring in the heavies when we need some muscle, and that's a fair way down the road. Simple communication is our first challenge.
A "few decades" ago BALPA brought in as General Secretary an ex miners' union leader, Mark Young. He was a bit of a cultural shock, but he was brilliant and kicked the airlines as never before. It was easier to teach aviation to a born union man than teach unions to an aviation expert. Perhaps we can educate a T&G heavyweight into our ways?
Pilot Pete,
You did hit a raw nerve, but no offence taken! In a previous company, BALPA had 51% membership and management colluded at starving the other 49% of information. It's poor when you receive absolutely zero first-hand communication about pay awards, hotel changes, FREA, etc.
If Government operated like BALPA, then only Labour voters would ever get to hear about anything at all, good or bad. I feel whichever union is "in power", it has an obligation to communicate, or at least encourage the company to do so. It can be good PR, along the lines of "See what we've done for you, why don't you join?". "We aren't talking to you because you aren't paying" is pretty negative.
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Originally Posted by pilothouse
If less than 50% join BALPA then it's a non-starter.
dragging a reluctant BALPA official up to our Northern bases regularly may be difficult
The union man is there only to help us with generic union procedures and to bring in the heavies when we need some muscle
BALPA had 51% membership and management colluded at starving the other 49% of information.
I feel whichever union is "in power", it has an obligation to communicate, or at least encourage the company to do so.
You have actually just given a good reason to have increased the 51% by your support to stop the management from 'colluding' (with whom I am not sure) against you as an individual!PP
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Muscle/the heavies = experienced professional negotiators! Good ones are rare and I bet the T&G has a few.
Communication from union to non-members = a simple notice on the crewroom board.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the BALPA Industrial Relations Officers Heathrow-based? Otherwise, how would BA pilots survive?
(Sorry, I don't mean to be terse but I'm off out, some of that FREA beer beckons.......)
Communication from union to non-members = a simple notice on the crewroom board.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the BALPA Industrial Relations Officers Heathrow-based? Otherwise, how would BA pilots survive?
(Sorry, I don't mean to be terse but I'm off out, some of that FREA beer beckons.......)
Last edited by pilothouse; 5th May 2006 at 16:44.
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With BALPA, each airline with a recognition agreement gets a trained negotiator allocated to them. Where they are based is irrelevant. We pay, they advise, the CC negotiate with them and the company management. End of.
PP
PP
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Originally Posted by pilothouse
I think we are going round in circles.
It must be decision time, and our decision is............?
It must be decision time, and our decision is............?
The T&G gave me a encouraging letter and an application form and my application has been sent. Meanwhile we have heard not a thing from BALPA, despite the fact that it is blindingly obvious that Jet2 pilots need the help of a union.
By the end of July (see Silverhawk's post of 4th May) we should know where we stand with T&G.
Thanks for reading my waffle, I just hope that it has got us somewhere.
END!
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pilothouse - Your position at Jet2 is very difficult in that you have the worst terms and conditions of any jet company in the UK. The tragedy is that many staff at Jet2 are just not aware quite how bad it is compared to other companies using just about any criteria you could care to mention. The situation that exists is essentially similar to that of the northern mill owner of past centuries - a benevolent dictator exercises absolute control over a compliant workforce who are too frightened to overtly question their lot in life. If they do not rock the boat then the status quo continues and the benevolent dictator looks down graciously and approvingly from his mansion house. If, however, poor Oliver asks for more, then the owner of the poorhouse burns with righteous indignation and Oliver is cast out into the hard world outside. What Oliver has yet to find out is that there is a whole new world outside that is infinitely better than the 'security' offered by the northern mill owner. Who then will be best placed to change the established norms within your company?
In a past life unrelated to aviation I was a member of the TGWU. There is no doubt that among them are some great people and they do a great job representing our cabin crew, for example, here at easyJet. The reality is that they are the wrong people to represent the pilots because their experience base is primarily among 'unskilled' and 'semi-skilled' labour market. That is not to knock the cabin crew, who are great people, but they are nonetheless 'unskilled' labour in terms of the industrial definition. BALPA, however, has a long history of representing professional pilots and despite some well-publicised failures, they have overall been magnificent. The TGWU simply do not know enough about the world of the professional pilot to be able to represent them correctly.
If you want to make the acid test it is this - who gets the best deals for their members? Right now at easyJet we have 2 parallel ongoing pay disputes. The latest pay offer for the pilots negotiated on their behalf by BALPA is 10% over 2 years - 6% now backdated to last October and 4% this October. As far as I am aware that is by far the best deal negotiated by any company in the UK this year - achieved through a rapidly growing BALPA membership of just under 80% of the pilots. The TGWU, however, have just managed to shoot themselves in the foot again by announcing that industrial action is imminent before they have bothered balloting the cabin crew! PM would run rings round them and you will do yourselves no favour in having them represent you. I realise that many people are sceptical of BALPA - do not write them off on some alleged past failing. When push comes to shove they will take on PM and win. You will then, slowly but surely, restored to the ranks of the better jet companies. Best of luck.
In a past life unrelated to aviation I was a member of the TGWU. There is no doubt that among them are some great people and they do a great job representing our cabin crew, for example, here at easyJet. The reality is that they are the wrong people to represent the pilots because their experience base is primarily among 'unskilled' and 'semi-skilled' labour market. That is not to knock the cabin crew, who are great people, but they are nonetheless 'unskilled' labour in terms of the industrial definition. BALPA, however, has a long history of representing professional pilots and despite some well-publicised failures, they have overall been magnificent. The TGWU simply do not know enough about the world of the professional pilot to be able to represent them correctly.
If you want to make the acid test it is this - who gets the best deals for their members? Right now at easyJet we have 2 parallel ongoing pay disputes. The latest pay offer for the pilots negotiated on their behalf by BALPA is 10% over 2 years - 6% now backdated to last October and 4% this October. As far as I am aware that is by far the best deal negotiated by any company in the UK this year - achieved through a rapidly growing BALPA membership of just under 80% of the pilots. The TGWU, however, have just managed to shoot themselves in the foot again by announcing that industrial action is imminent before they have bothered balloting the cabin crew! PM would run rings round them and you will do yourselves no favour in having them represent you. I realise that many people are sceptical of BALPA - do not write them off on some alleged past failing. When push comes to shove they will take on PM and win. You will then, slowly but surely, restored to the ranks of the better jet companies. Best of luck.
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Originally Posted by pilothouse
Meanwhile we have heard not a thing from BALPA, despite the fact that it is blindingly obvious that Jet2 pilots need the help of a union.
PP
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I send END but I'm obviously not getting my message across:
Hence T&G.
END!!!
Originally Posted by pilothouse
I'm sure that BALPA is the right union but:
1. I don't believe we'll get a reasonable membership.
1. I don't believe we'll get a reasonable membership.
END!!!
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PP, NSF
I am sorry that my deluded colleagues are not listening to you,
Silverhawk you are trying to sound like a well seasoned veteran i.e. ‘I suspect this is a ploy to engage the workforce in a manner less influential than union representation. Do not fall for this tactic’.
In your actions by trying to mobilise the pilot community to join TGWU you are in fact showing you naivety. Listen to the above posts by what are well versed members of BALPA affiliated airlines that have been given through proper negotiation the T&C’s that they the pilots deserve. I indirectly know PP and his knowledge of union assistance is about as spot on as it gets.
As for NSF I don’t know him but his last post is in reality a spot on assessment of our airline management here at JET2.
As professional pilots we have spent and studied a great deal and in return do (or should do in our case at Jet2) receive salary and benefits that recognise this.
The TGWU will not recognise any of this and we will all be lumped in the same pot as the office staff, cabin crew etc. When it comes down to negotiation we will not receive the level of improvements that we deserve.
I realise that the Silverhawk and pilothouse are veterans of the Manchester crew room and have the respect of the newer f/o’s, but in reality you are conning them into believing that the TGWU are going to bring much improved T&C’s when in fact by lumping us all into the same pot as the other staff you are as responsible as JET2 management for eroding the pilot profession as a whole.
I am sorry that my deluded colleagues are not listening to you,
Silverhawk you are trying to sound like a well seasoned veteran i.e. ‘I suspect this is a ploy to engage the workforce in a manner less influential than union representation. Do not fall for this tactic’.
In your actions by trying to mobilise the pilot community to join TGWU you are in fact showing you naivety. Listen to the above posts by what are well versed members of BALPA affiliated airlines that have been given through proper negotiation the T&C’s that they the pilots deserve. I indirectly know PP and his knowledge of union assistance is about as spot on as it gets.
As for NSF I don’t know him but his last post is in reality a spot on assessment of our airline management here at JET2.
As professional pilots we have spent and studied a great deal and in return do (or should do in our case at Jet2) receive salary and benefits that recognise this.
The TGWU will not recognise any of this and we will all be lumped in the same pot as the office staff, cabin crew etc. When it comes down to negotiation we will not receive the level of improvements that we deserve.
I realise that the Silverhawk and pilothouse are veterans of the Manchester crew room and have the respect of the newer f/o’s, but in reality you are conning them into believing that the TGWU are going to bring much improved T&C’s when in fact by lumping us all into the same pot as the other staff you are as responsible as JET2 management for eroding the pilot profession as a whole.
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Ardacre
Just do what you think is right.
My gripe is with the management not you, whoever you are. However I do refute that I am as responsible as the Jet2 management for the erosion of the whole industry's terms and conditions. As Jet2 have only been in the passenger business for a couple of years I don't think they can be held directly responsible either. Instead look more to the original players in this area, Ryanair and Easyjet.
Seems like a good deal at Easy now, but how long has it taken? Easy pushed to the brink over such a long time and they were allowed to. That payrise doesn't look quite so rosy once it is recognised the timescale since the last decent rise. Very similar scenario to Netjets in US.
Just do what you think is right.
My gripe is with the management not you, whoever you are. However I do refute that I am as responsible as the Jet2 management for the erosion of the whole industry's terms and conditions. As Jet2 have only been in the passenger business for a couple of years I don't think they can be held directly responsible either. Instead look more to the original players in this area, Ryanair and Easyjet.
Seems like a good deal at Easy now, but how long has it taken? Easy pushed to the brink over such a long time and they were allowed to. That payrise doesn't look quite so rosy once it is recognised the timescale since the last decent rise. Very similar scenario to Netjets in US.
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I have been a follower of this forum for a long time and I have never posted before but having just been told by someone who Silverhawk is and read his misguided opinions here I felt it was time to speak up. Some of you should be asking him what he did at his previous company to negotiate the pilots pay.
Someone mentioned naivety. Well you hit the nail on the head there.His record is not one to shout about which is probably why your going to regret not trying to sort yourselfs out with proper representation. He was one of the people who advocated that the ipa should represent the pilots and got nowhere with that naive notion. Now he is going to go for the tgwu. Since when are pilots unskilled or semi skilled workers. Thats exactly what your managment want to lower you to and youre falling right into their hands.
Never mind because you dont know any better. Pity you dont listen to pilots like Norman Stanley or Ardacre.
Someone mentioned naivety. Well you hit the nail on the head there.His record is not one to shout about which is probably why your going to regret not trying to sort yourselfs out with proper representation. He was one of the people who advocated that the ipa should represent the pilots and got nowhere with that naive notion. Now he is going to go for the tgwu. Since when are pilots unskilled or semi skilled workers. Thats exactly what your managment want to lower you to and youre falling right into their hands.
Never mind because you dont know any better. Pity you dont listen to pilots like Norman Stanley or Ardacre.
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Knobby
Not much time just now but you should know the IPA/IPF was imposed on us at the previous place by the management. We didn't want them but at those negotiations they were better than nothing, or so we thought before the negotiations. Felt very differently afterwards.
At those negotiations we were able to secure a better deal from the board than they were willing to offer. Not a great deal but an improvement. History shows it was not to break the bank. The board actually wanted to disband the cc during those negotiations. That was without any help from any union for the flight deck.
Knobby since you know who I am then please fell free to call me when you want facts rather than post on here with what you may have heard from a bloke down the pub who once knew a man.......etc. Doesn't take Einstein to read my posts and deduce my identity, it has never been a secret.
As can probably be seen already serving on a cc is no easy ride and a thankless task. The management see you as a troublemaker, your colleagues will never be satisfied with any improvements you manage to secure, no matter how protracted negotiations get. Make no mistake serving on the cc is time consuming and hard graft. Anyone at Jet2 thinking of being involved at that level, be sure you have the time and commitment to devote to a stable cc.
Edited to add the above paragraph
Not much time just now but you should know the IPA/IPF was imposed on us at the previous place by the management. We didn't want them but at those negotiations they were better than nothing, or so we thought before the negotiations. Felt very differently afterwards.
At those negotiations we were able to secure a better deal from the board than they were willing to offer. Not a great deal but an improvement. History shows it was not to break the bank. The board actually wanted to disband the cc during those negotiations. That was without any help from any union for the flight deck.
Knobby since you know who I am then please fell free to call me when you want facts rather than post on here with what you may have heard from a bloke down the pub who once knew a man.......etc. Doesn't take Einstein to read my posts and deduce my identity, it has never been a secret.
As can probably be seen already serving on a cc is no easy ride and a thankless task. The management see you as a troublemaker, your colleagues will never be satisfied with any improvements you manage to secure, no matter how protracted negotiations get. Make no mistake serving on the cc is time consuming and hard graft. Anyone at Jet2 thinking of being involved at that level, be sure you have the time and commitment to devote to a stable cc.
Edited to add the above paragraph
Last edited by silverhawk; 6th May 2006 at 17:40.
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Knobby
not called me yet. Probably operational, that's perfectly understable. When you're not so busy call ops in Boh and ask for my contact details. Then call me.
When you have, I'll post on here that you were able to talk to me directly.
Registered 2004, 1 post. How many other nom de plumes do you have?
If Boh are reluctant to give you my details then PM me
all the best
not called me yet. Probably operational, that's perfectly understable. When you're not so busy call ops in Boh and ask for my contact details. Then call me.
When you have, I'll post on here that you were able to talk to me directly.
Registered 2004, 1 post. How many other nom de plumes do you have?
If Boh are reluctant to give you my details then PM me
all the best
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Must say Knobby that I thought your post was a little harsh on Silverhawk. I have known him to stand up for myself and others on several occasions when he really didn't have to. Whether the IPA, TGWU or BALPA is the way to go I don't know, but I have no doubt that Silverhawk has our best interests at heart. Whether he is right or wrong I think it is unfair to knock him for trying to stand up for us.
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Silverhawk,
By trying to force us down the TGWU route you are going to place us in the same negotiating pot as cabin crew and office staff. How much have they spent on training etc? How does their job compare to ours? How can their jobs been linked to ours apart from the fact that we get airborne when we go to work? Are we now semi skilled or are you after down grading to semi skilled (after all that’s who the TGWU on the whole represent manual and semi skilled workers)? Why should we move away from a dedicated union that is already in place for pilots?
Come up with sensible answers to these questions and I may look at joining the TGWU.
Silverhawk you posted
‘Seems like a good deal at Easy now, but how long has it taken? Easy pushed to the brink over such a long time and they were allowed to. That pay rise doesn't look quite so rosy once it is recognised the timescale since the last decent rise. Very similar scenario to Netjets in US’
Just how long has it taken?
Will the TGWU mobilise themselves any quicker?
Will the TGWU get a quicker improvement in our conditions?
Which union assisted easy with getting this current deal?
These are a few of the many many questions that need answering.
If we go down the TGWU route I can guarantee that in a year’s time nothing and I mean nothing will have changed.
Silverhawk,
This is not a personal issue between us this is trying to get the pilot community the right deal and proper T&C’s.
I may have said that you are naïve this was not personnel insult but an observation, I still believe that you are, your mind is set and your decision made up that you are going to lobby for the TGWU. Good luck but the words ‘told you so’ spring to mind.
I hope you don’t have a conscience because you going to lead the Jet2 pilot community into the managements hands like lambs to the slaughter.
By trying to force us down the TGWU route you are going to place us in the same negotiating pot as cabin crew and office staff. How much have they spent on training etc? How does their job compare to ours? How can their jobs been linked to ours apart from the fact that we get airborne when we go to work? Are we now semi skilled or are you after down grading to semi skilled (after all that’s who the TGWU on the whole represent manual and semi skilled workers)? Why should we move away from a dedicated union that is already in place for pilots?
Come up with sensible answers to these questions and I may look at joining the TGWU.
Silverhawk you posted
‘Seems like a good deal at Easy now, but how long has it taken? Easy pushed to the brink over such a long time and they were allowed to. That pay rise doesn't look quite so rosy once it is recognised the timescale since the last decent rise. Very similar scenario to Netjets in US’
Just how long has it taken?
Will the TGWU mobilise themselves any quicker?
Will the TGWU get a quicker improvement in our conditions?
Which union assisted easy with getting this current deal?
These are a few of the many many questions that need answering.
If we go down the TGWU route I can guarantee that in a year’s time nothing and I mean nothing will have changed.
Silverhawk,
This is not a personal issue between us this is trying to get the pilot community the right deal and proper T&C’s.
I may have said that you are naïve this was not personnel insult but an observation, I still believe that you are, your mind is set and your decision made up that you are going to lobby for the TGWU. Good luck but the words ‘told you so’ spring to mind.
I hope you don’t have a conscience because you going to lead the Jet2 pilot community into the managements hands like lambs to the slaughter.
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silverhawk probably does have our best interests at heart, but on the issue of which union to go for knobby thinks he’s misguided, as I do.
Silverhawk already knows IPF are a waste of time. They were forced on him by a company that probably knew that anyway. But even if the IPF hadn’t been forced on him, their track record would show that.
Why then does silverhawk want to encourage people to join another union with no successful track record at pilot representation? And lump us in with the CC & office workers. If the T & G is to represent us as an employee group, they must negotiate what is best for the majority of its members. There are 450 trucks in Fowler Welch, at least 450 drivers to a man in the T & G I would think. If the FO’s stake a claim that they want to be in the pension scheme and be covered by medical insurance like the captains and the truckers stake a claim for length of service increments like the pilots get, if there are 75 FO’s at Jet2 and 450 truckers at FW, it’s obvious who’s interests the T & G must serve first.
The whole T & G thing is an I’ll informed, poorly thought out folly that beggars belief to anyone with an ounce of common sense, that raises the expectations of the weak and diverts attention away from the one union likely to have any success at all, BALPA.
Silverhawk already knows IPF are a waste of time. They were forced on him by a company that probably knew that anyway. But even if the IPF hadn’t been forced on him, their track record would show that.
Why then does silverhawk want to encourage people to join another union with no successful track record at pilot representation? And lump us in with the CC & office workers. If the T & G is to represent us as an employee group, they must negotiate what is best for the majority of its members. There are 450 trucks in Fowler Welch, at least 450 drivers to a man in the T & G I would think. If the FO’s stake a claim that they want to be in the pension scheme and be covered by medical insurance like the captains and the truckers stake a claim for length of service increments like the pilots get, if there are 75 FO’s at Jet2 and 450 truckers at FW, it’s obvious who’s interests the T & G must serve first.
The whole T & G thing is an I’ll informed, poorly thought out folly that beggars belief to anyone with an ounce of common sense, that raises the expectations of the weak and diverts attention away from the one union likely to have any success at all, BALPA.