Jet2 Sector Pay?

[pilothouse]

We seem to be witnessing the complete polarisation of pilots in Jet2.

In one corner the old Channel guards, embittered and at continuous war with their enemy, the management. Their vitriolic Pprune posts will always be there to entertain us.

And in the other corner the vastly more numerous new Jet2 breed, originally slightly naive about management and willing to let them run the show, and now very irritated by sector pay and dual basing. But still not at war, and keen to negotiate rather than rant.

Silverhawk seems to talk the most sense on this thread. "Management is not the enemy but we still do need strong union representation" is his message. Silverhawk, are you in a position to start the ball rolling properly?

[Bam Thwok]

With you on that one Pilothouse.....as you say, there has been a focussing of minds around the crew rooms of late...

For me the only serious option is BALPA....not ideal for a lot of reasons but, as I have have witnessed in a previous company, very effective if aiding a strong company council that has the FULL backing of the pilot workforce !

So, all's quiet at the moment....before the inevitable ball-ache of summer... lets get the dedicated company forum up and running so we can get "polarised" properly.

How goes it withy Danny...Silverhawk ?

[toppledgyro]

Bamthwok, pilot house, MANBLK,

My sentiments entirely - well said.

[silverhawk]

I've done my part. I joined the T&G. I am only one man. It's up to anyone else to join if they want to. Numbers are growing, but slowly. I rather suspect apathy will prevail and next time around we will be subjected to a similar scenario. If that happens we only have ourselves to blame.

I'm not convinced about Balpa, but I would join there as well if there were sufficient levels of membership.

As I've said before, I'd rather have everyone together, Flight deck, cabin crew, engineers, admin and office staff.

As far as dedicated forum, still waiting for a response from Pprune admin.

[MANBLK]

Okay then, let's try a survey.

ASAP, please PM me with:

(1) Your existing union/association (if any)
(2) Another union/association (if any) that you would be prepared to join WITHIN 28 DAYS, IF THIS WAS THE MAJORITY DECISION
(3) Would you be prepared to make a small contribution towards a private forum on Pprune?
(4) Your base (optional)
(5) Your rank (optional)
(6) Security code - look at the recently-issued base/sector table and you will find the three-letter designator for somewhere that Jet2 definitely does not fly to out of Manchester! Write down these three letters so that I know you work for Jet2.

Here's mine:
(1) IPA/IPF
(2) TGWU
(3) Yes
(4) MAN
(5) Confidential
(6) XXX

Any replies that do not include the XXX correctly decoded will be deleted.
If your PM to me is rejected because my mailbox is full, please try again later.
IMPORTANT - please resubmit if you don't get a receipt within 4 days.
I will publish the results in 14 days.
Thanks!

[MANBLK]

Thanks guys, keep them coming and please tell your colleagues. Even if they are not Ppruners they can do a one-off registration just for the survey.

The security question was made deliberately confusing to deter wild guessing - any non-scheduled will do.

[Pilot Pete]

Another reason why BALPA isn't as expensive as some would have you believe.

BALPA have been negotiating with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC), or the taxman to you and me, regarding the Fixed Rate Expense Allowance (FREA) system. Prior to this, FREA were negotiated locally by each tax office. This produced some glaring anomalies. In future the FREA which each airline gets will be negotiated at a national level and will result in all UK airlines getting the same together with an agreed mechanism for regular uplifts.

This applies to all uniformed commercial pilots and co-pilots, and other uniformed flight deck crew, for 2006/07 onwards. The agreement replaces all locally agreed FREAs and comes on top of the tax relief on subscriptions victory that we secured in 2004.

• The basic FREA is £850, and it applies from tax year 2006/07.
• There is a further expenses deduction of £100 to cover the allowable cost of travel to certain regular, specified activities. Under the terms of the agreement between HMRC and BALPA, uniformed pilots, co-pilots and other uniformed flight deck crew may obtain the expenses deductions for 2006/07 onwards.

There are other items that can be included like nooise cancelling headsets and uniforms if not provided by the employer. The fact is that in my airline where the locally agreed FREA was £400 pa, this means that BALPA have more than doubled my expenses deductions. Anyone in JET2 care to comment on what your locally agreed FREA was before BALPA negotiated this for your benefit too?

Add this to the 66.66% tax deductable amount off your 1% of salary membership (assuming you have been in a few years) and then all of a sudden BALPA membership is virtually FREE.

You still think the TGWU is your best option?

PP

[silverhawk]

To Balpa, congratulations and on behalf of all the non-Balpa individuals who will benefit from this FREA, thanks.

Pilot pete, further evidence of what can be done by sticking together, as if any was really needed. I want us all to stick together and the only place that can accomodate us is the T&G. Needs five crew for the aircraft to move plus all the backup staff that make up the whole airline.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by silverhawk

Pilot pete, further evidence of what can be done by sticking together, as if any was really needed.

Correct. But BALPA negotiated this for pilots. I can't see the T&G EVER negotiating anything like this solely for 'pilots' and even less so for a group of 'pilots and cabin crew'.

I guess all you non-BALPA members will be demanding that the taxman exclude you from this FREA (which incidently is your right), whilst you negotiate on an individual basis or through the T&G to see if you can get anything above a couple of hundred quid?)

I honestly wish you good luck in your efforts to negotiate ANYTHING meaningful as a group of pilots and cabin crew together. I fear your efforts will be fruitless and fractional as many cabin crew view their position as merely a job, whereas the vast majority of pilots view their position as a career. I have seen it before, even when faced with redundancy the apathy amongst the cabin crew members I spoke with was very disappointing. In every airline I have worked in the cabin crew have been significantly split by those who wanted to make the best of it and those who really just didn't care. The proportion of pilots with a similar attitude in those airlines was vastly different.

As a negotiating body your different agendas will lead to fractions and ultimately watered down settlements, constant compromise of one group to achieve something for the other. And what big stick will you wield? I don't see too many pilots voting for industrial action over a cabin crew issue and equally I don't see too many (much lower paid) cabin crew manning the braziers in favour of improved pilot terms and conditions. Like I said, good luck though.

PP

[silverhawk]

private forum

from pprune admin today.

Whole structure of pprune is under review including number of private forums. More news soon.

[pilothouse]

Thanks for looking into it, Silverhawk.

Re BALPA vs T&G, I've no doubt that BALPA would eventually produce the best longterm results, despite their obvious shortcomings - not the least of which is that historically they have only really been interested in the big established operators such as BA - and easyJet is now the BA of the low cost airlines, hence BALPA's activity and success.

What concerns me is that whichever union we choose has to be affordable. It's all very well saying that BALPA's 1% is good value, but most Jet2 pilots just cannot afford any more outgoings. Their debts are HUGE and they have to go for the least cost option. If we go with BALPA we will end up with an insignificant membership and then we are back to square one with minimal representation.

My proposal is that we at least start with the T&G. It is cheap, we can quickly achieve high representation and if they want us that desperately we can insist on some rapid action. If they fail us within, say, six months we can simply dump them and consider BALPA instead.

Is there any evidence that BALPA want us? Are they actively canvassing for members? I can almost hear the groans of the Industrial Relations Officers at New Road as they relish the prospect of mauling from Uncle Philip.

[silverhawk]

Pilothouse

your proposal sounds like a perfectly acceptable strategy. It gives all and sundry the chance to join in.

If insufficient numbers join then as a pilot body we can advance on our own with a clear conscience.

[LoCo Commotion]

Can we not organise representatives from the two serious players, BALPA and T&G to make a presentation to us with regard to what they can offer. Then we could discuss the benefits, make an informed decision between ourselves then ALL join just one union based on a majority vote.

Surely it is wasted effort for some to join T&G, some to join BALPA, some with IPA and some doing absolutely nothing. Pulling in a number of directions we simply won't get anywhere! Management will kill themselves with laughter at this rate!

Personally from what I have read/heard about BALPA makes most sense - recent track record with EZ says a lot to me. However, we all need to be able to make an informed decision based on fact not hearsay. It's time to stand up and be counted......else we risk spending the rest of our lives just bitching on prune!

LCM

[cargo boy]

Never have I read such immature and ill informed pap as some on this thread appear to be advocating. I think someone asked this question earlier, give us a list of all the UK airlines that have anything other than Balpa recognition and have managed to secure decent pay and conditions. Errr... deathly silence from the Jet2 "leaders" of the revolution to go for the IPA, T&GWU and... wait for it... joint negotiations with cabin crew and office staff.

As was mentioned earlier, the naivety being shown in this thread by those proposing anything other than Balpa representation is a sure sign that we will have yet another UK airline with flight crew who do nothing but drag the rest of the standards for the industry down with them. They will be at the bottom end of the pay scales with minimal terms and conditions and forever whingeing on here about joining the T&GWU or the IPA whilst they see their negotiations with their shrewd management being thwarted because they have some sort of elected employee representitive council whose members have totally different needs and aspirations. As usual, the lowest common denominator will be the one that secures any petty pay deals they manage to eke out of a management that must be rollong in the aisles with laughter at the blind leading the blind on this thread.

Pathetic. I for one would wager a bet that we'll see the Jet2 pilots still on here whingeing and divided in a year from now because they have such ill-informed and naive pilots trying to get them to group cohesively but not with Balapa but one of the other union/associations that have such an excellent track record representing pilots at all the other successful Uk airlines.

Watch this space and learn how not to get collective pilot representation in the UK. T&GWU and IPA, joint employee representitive councils... gimme a break!

[MANBLK]

Cargo Boy,

It's very easy from your elevated status on a Virgin megaplane to look down on us poor peasants who actually handle little aeroplanes daily rather than dehydrate in bunks for hours. Virgin is established and BALPA does very well, it's obviously the right choice for you. It may not be the right choice for us, despite your eloquent reasoning.

Also, how about delaying your posts until you've got over your jetlag? From the tone of your post you don't seem to be a very nice person to know at the moment, but after a good night's local rest I'm sure you'll probably be just as pleasant as a Jet2 pilot.

[Ardacre]

I have to agree with content of cargo boy's post if not the tone, BALPA is the only way forward for us. I also believe that in a year from now nothing will have changed, apart from the fact the Meeson and his mob will have shafted us even more.

Wake up boys and girls because if we dont the pains only going to get worse.

[silverhawk]

post No156 again

. .

[cargo boy]

MANBLK, where I currently earn my living is irrelevant but as you were asking, yes, the Caribbean this time of year is very nice thank you and being in a company that has almost total Balpa membership has its benefits. Speaking from experience, the only way to negotiate a decent package for the pilots is with a very high membership in Balpa and from that high membership, electing your representatives who, with help from Balpa negotiators, will bargain from a position of strength.

I am still waiting to hear from the sages that are advising that you join any union except Balpa and negotiate as an employee group together with the Cabin Crew and the office staff, about any other UK airline that has successfully done so. From what I can see from my lofty heights at Britains flag carrier is that all you are managing to do is spread false hope and utopian dreams on your fellow pilots. Please try and answer the following questions:

1. Name the starting pay and highest pay achievable for both F/O's and Captains at the top earning UK airline where the pilot membership is represented by the T&GWU?

2. Name the top earning UK airline where the pilots are jointly represented by a joint employee representative council and list the pay rises they have achieved over the last 3 years?

If you are happy to lose an opportunity to get your collective act together then so be it. Whether I make these observations from my lofty flight deck or the bunk behind it is irrelevant and all I am trying to do is point out that you are managing to divide your pilot workgroup and I always thought that was managements job!

[MANBLK]

Good morning Cargo Boy,

I thank you for your input here, because I feel that you are genuinely concerned for us - and I mean this in all sincerity!

I agree with everything that you say. BALPA does indeed achieve the very best for its members.

BUT - it does need a majority pilot membership, say 70% minimum. If we could get that, BALPA it should be. The problem is, what proportion of Jet2 pilots, particularly debt-laden F/O's, are prepared to stump up 1%? If not enough, then it's a complete waste of time and big money.

There's also the problem that not everybody can be convinced that BALPA is a good thing. I for one have been stuffed by them in a previous life, though it wouldn't stop me joining.

Silverhawk sees benefits in having all flying staff, and indeed office staff, under the same roof so that we have a unified grip. I don't know whether this is a good idea or not, but I do feel that a new small airline in the North may need to develop differently from an established one in the South. Not everyone agrees with the philosophy that the pilots need to look after themselves alone. We have absolutely zero us-and-them on board, they are our mates. Some pilots don't necessarily want to sacrifice them for our benefit.

Finally, if we are forced down the T&G route simply because of the 1%, it has been suggested somewhere above that it's not irreversible. To try the T&G and see it fail us is probably the best way of getting everyone to join BALPA.

[Ardacre]

My first point is that we are not a small airline! We are of similar size if not larger than Monarch and Mytravel in respect of airframes.

Second point is that Balpa know the the industry and its a known fact that Balpa are only as good as the crew council we the pilots elect to negotiate on our behalf.
Balpa has to be the way forward as it is geared up for our industry. As for the 1% well this is reduced or subsidised in the first year. So we could give Balpa a year at this subsidised rate to see if they can in fact do us some good, if not then we regroup and look at the other options.

Our collective naivity is being exploited by the management, the airline is at times being run off the pure goodwill of the staff. Meeson and his mob realise this and in my opinion are expanding largley off the back of it.
Its time they are made to realise that the staff need to be shown some respect and reasonable T&C's put in place.