BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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1 Your Pension is part of your terms and conditions. Can a company unilaterally change those without your permission – I think not.
If so it is up to the company to negotiate with you as to what you would accept.
2 The current share price reflects the current pension scheme. Shares in companies are regularly traded so the shareholders are fully aware of the current situation . It might be that the shareholders would be quite prepared to dilute their shareholding to allow current employees to exchange part of their pension for additional new shares on the basis that if the deficit was cleared the returns on the shares would be greater.
Whatever you do, don’t give up your pension for the benefit of others because one thing that you can be sure of is that the directors of the Company have an incentive scheme tied into share price, so reducing your terms and conditions would hugely enrich the directors.
If so it is up to the company to negotiate with you as to what you would accept.
2 The current share price reflects the current pension scheme. Shares in companies are regularly traded so the shareholders are fully aware of the current situation . It might be that the shareholders would be quite prepared to dilute their shareholding to allow current employees to exchange part of their pension for additional new shares on the basis that if the deficit was cleared the returns on the shares would be greater.
Whatever you do, don’t give up your pension for the benefit of others because one thing that you can be sure of is that the directors of the Company have an incentive scheme tied into share price, so reducing your terms and conditions would hugely enrich the directors.
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aan,
If you knew what 2/3 of a senior crew pensionable salary was then you would know that your numbers are rubbish.
I'm sorry you are struggling to exist in the real world unlike the "mollycudled" BA pilots, but then .....if it's so great and overpaid etc etc in BA why are not you doing it then?
Oh, and I assume you represent the general public in not giving a damn?...!!!
This thread is about a company renaging on a promise which it can well-afford to keep.
Take your BA un-informed bashing to jetblast please
If you knew what 2/3 of a senior crew pensionable salary was then you would know that your numbers are rubbish.
I'm sorry you are struggling to exist in the real world unlike the "mollycudled" BA pilots, but then .....if it's so great and overpaid etc etc in BA why are not you doing it then?
Oh, and I assume you represent the general public in not giving a damn?...!!!
This thread is about a company renaging on a promise which it can well-afford to keep.
Take your BA un-informed bashing to jetblast please
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Everyone who is argueing over these details are missing the big picture!
WW is just messing with the Unions, it's where he came from, he's doing what he does best, doing what got him the CEO job in Aer Lingus and in BA. And doing what he only knows, but does very well.
He will get something else from you by threatening to take away what he knows is rightfully yours. There will be a negotiated settlement, not a strike.
If he gets even half of what he demands now then he will settle, but that is one BIG half.
100% Pilot unity is the only game in town. Good Luck, you'll need it.
WW is just messing with the Unions, it's where he came from, he's doing what he does best, doing what got him the CEO job in Aer Lingus and in BA. And doing what he only knows, but does very well.
He will get something else from you by threatening to take away what he knows is rightfully yours. There will be a negotiated settlement, not a strike.
If he gets even half of what he demands now then he will settle, but that is one BIG half.
100% Pilot unity is the only game in town. Good Luck, you'll need it.
Controversial, moi?
These BA crews dont know what world they live in, their senior crews can look forward to £120.000+ ........ pensions when they retire,
Inaccurate and utter rubbish.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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£100,000 is hardly a large salary these days. Most GP's are close to the figure and most half decent barristers earn well above this figure. The days of pilots being well paid is long gone, especially when you factor in the unsocial hours.
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aan/sailor. Guys in APS, the old scheme, may retire on £120k a year but those in NAPS - no chance.
But you are missing the point. We are not living in a dreamworld but a real, benchmarked one in which BA can demonstrably afford to pay for its pensions obligations. If it doesn't - game over. If WW goes on to bash the pilots over bidline etc, he'll be making another mistake there too. We have been messed about for years whilst the rest of BA has gone its own merry way, wasting millions, and the time for all that pilot bashing is over.
Neither I nor my colleagues care a jot what you think, or indeed anyone else when it comes down to it: either BA pays up on pensions, improves BARP for the new joiners and leaves bidline alone, or there wont be a BA - end of story.
Cue howls of rage from the "work for peanuts squad". Suggestion -get off your butts and improve your own lot wherever you work, and we'll get on with defending our contracts meanwhile. Selfish - not a bit of it. I joined on a contract and it will be honoured. Every time BA pilots helped the company out in the past it was pissed back in our faces - every time, (Salary cuts for A320's at birmingham anyone? Oh! I forgot, there aren't any, and so on and on).
Not anymore. our flight ops managers are neither leaders nor managers, just bonus-driven liars, and with the end of credibility comes the long-overdue end of pilot naivety.
Stick together guys - WW has a lot to learn.
But you are missing the point. We are not living in a dreamworld but a real, benchmarked one in which BA can demonstrably afford to pay for its pensions obligations. If it doesn't - game over. If WW goes on to bash the pilots over bidline etc, he'll be making another mistake there too. We have been messed about for years whilst the rest of BA has gone its own merry way, wasting millions, and the time for all that pilot bashing is over.
Neither I nor my colleagues care a jot what you think, or indeed anyone else when it comes down to it: either BA pays up on pensions, improves BARP for the new joiners and leaves bidline alone, or there wont be a BA - end of story.
Cue howls of rage from the "work for peanuts squad". Suggestion -get off your butts and improve your own lot wherever you work, and we'll get on with defending our contracts meanwhile. Selfish - not a bit of it. I joined on a contract and it will be honoured. Every time BA pilots helped the company out in the past it was pissed back in our faces - every time, (Salary cuts for A320's at birmingham anyone? Oh! I forgot, there aren't any, and so on and on).
Not anymore. our flight ops managers are neither leaders nor managers, just bonus-driven liars, and with the end of credibility comes the long-overdue end of pilot naivety.
Stick together guys - WW has a lot to learn.
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sailor
.... and I venture to suggest that those 3 people are in receipt of an APS pension, not a NAPS pension. They probably also served over 30 years and quite possibly had training appointments which would all boost their pensions. Additionally they probably also had the option to crystalise at 50, and then retired on an enhanced deal at 55.
That is not the lot of the vast majority in BA on NAPS, and what the company are likely to propose is some form of career averaging which may take someone's pension from an expected £50,000 to nearer £30,000. Crystalisation is no longer an option and under NAPS the pension is only index-linked to a point, unlike the full indexation of APS.
You really need to understand the facts before you shout from your almighty pulpit.
.... and I venture to suggest that those 3 people are in receipt of an APS pension, not a NAPS pension. They probably also served over 30 years and quite possibly had training appointments which would all boost their pensions. Additionally they probably also had the option to crystalise at 50, and then retired on an enhanced deal at 55.
That is not the lot of the vast majority in BA on NAPS, and what the company are likely to propose is some form of career averaging which may take someone's pension from an expected £50,000 to nearer £30,000. Crystalisation is no longer an option and under NAPS the pension is only index-linked to a point, unlike the full indexation of APS.
You really need to understand the facts before you shout from your almighty pulpit.
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sky9
As a retired pilot with a paramedic son, I disagree. Most things are relative, and I'm of the view that most airline pilots are still very well paid - and have an enviable on-duty lifestyle (there are exceptions such as the Liverpool freight dogs). And the unsocial hours are more than compensated. I also think that the majority of RAF aircrew (and paramedics) might agree - fancy their 'unsocial' hours on their pay?
PS: - Sorry if I'm repeating sentiments from other posts; haven't read through, just reacting to sky9
As a retired pilot with a paramedic son, I disagree. Most things are relative, and I'm of the view that most airline pilots are still very well paid - and have an enviable on-duty lifestyle (there are exceptions such as the Liverpool freight dogs). And the unsocial hours are more than compensated. I also think that the majority of RAF aircrew (and paramedics) might agree - fancy their 'unsocial' hours on their pay?
PS: - Sorry if I'm repeating sentiments from other posts; haven't read through, just reacting to sky9
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Have to agree with Jind.
I cannot quote the numbers, as I am not in BA. However, does anyone disagree with me when I say that from what has been said, guys with 20 to 25 years with the company can expect a pension of GBP60,000 per year at the age of 55? This is what most people aspire to as a professional as their peak earnings, let alone pension. Well that's better than the greedy b*stard MPs voted for themselves and funded by taxes. How on earth can this be funded?
I am not a slagger of BA. Well done if you get that. I did 18 years in the RAF and will get about 10,000 a year from age 55, cast-iron and guaranteed by the Treasury. But for the majority of the industry, 60,000 would be a pay rise or parity on retirement. I wish I'd done worse at school and followed the smarmy git who got chopped at FNT and lucked onto the 747-400 fleet back in '88. He's still a co-pilot, but like the Murphy's, I'm not bitter.
I cannot quote the numbers, as I am not in BA. However, does anyone disagree with me when I say that from what has been said, guys with 20 to 25 years with the company can expect a pension of GBP60,000 per year at the age of 55? This is what most people aspire to as a professional as their peak earnings, let alone pension. Well that's better than the greedy b*stard MPs voted for themselves and funded by taxes. How on earth can this be funded?
I am not a slagger of BA. Well done if you get that. I did 18 years in the RAF and will get about 10,000 a year from age 55, cast-iron and guaranteed by the Treasury. But for the majority of the industry, 60,000 would be a pay rise or parity on retirement. I wish I'd done worse at school and followed the smarmy git who got chopped at FNT and lucked onto the 747-400 fleet back in '88. He's still a co-pilot, but like the Murphy's, I'm not bitter.
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As an open forum anyone can contribute regardless of their knowledge of the subject. However the reality is that this is a BA issue and the usual finger pointing and tut-tutting that usually accompanies a post on PPRuNe is pretty irrelevant.
To those of you who would happily sit back and let your employer change their contractual agreements to you, well more power to you. I can't sit back and let that happen to me. And as you'll see by my profile I'm not flight crew, but this affects almost everyone in BA. As cabin crew I'll get peanuts from my NAPS pension, but I'd rather have three peanuts than two.
To my colleagues at BA, forward these links around to everyone:
http://www.befairba.com
http://www.bacanaffordtopay.com
To those of you who would happily sit back and let your employer change their contractual agreements to you, well more power to you. I can't sit back and let that happen to me. And as you'll see by my profile I'm not flight crew, but this affects almost everyone in BA. As cabin crew I'll get peanuts from my NAPS pension, but I'd rather have three peanuts than two.
To my colleagues at BA, forward these links around to everyone:
http://www.befairba.com
http://www.bacanaffordtopay.com
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I was FORCED to take severance three years ago and have 12 years contributions in NAPS, so I get a say.
It used to annoy the hell out of me that a senior captain in his early fifties could spend all his career on shorthaul contributing on a salary of £70k (for arguments sake, don't get me started on cash in hand expenses), then use his high bid status to go long haul, then pay in on say £110k for the final few years and then collect his pension based on this inflated final salary. Please could you show me another group of peolpe working for BA that can do this???
Sky9 Don't even think about saying doctors and lawyers get paid more than pilots. Most of the senior BA captains were the chosen ones, paid to become a pilot and trained in about 18 months, not studied for 5,6,7 years to get degrees whilst NOT getting paid.
It makes me sick
It used to annoy the hell out of me that a senior captain in his early fifties could spend all his career on shorthaul contributing on a salary of £70k (for arguments sake, don't get me started on cash in hand expenses), then use his high bid status to go long haul, then pay in on say £110k for the final few years and then collect his pension based on this inflated final salary. Please could you show me another group of peolpe working for BA that can do this???
Sky9 Don't even think about saying doctors and lawyers get paid more than pilots. Most of the senior BA captains were the chosen ones, paid to become a pilot and trained in about 18 months, not studied for 5,6,7 years to get degrees whilst NOT getting paid.
It makes me sick
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It used to annoy the hell out of me that a senior captain in his early fifties could spend all his career on shorthaul contributing on a salary of £70k (for arguments sake, don't get me started on cash in hand expenses), then use his high bid status to go long haul, then pay in on say £110k for the final few years and then collect his pension based on this inflated final salary. Please could you show me another group of peolpe working for BA that can do this???
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Here goes nothing....
Leander,
A "back of the fag packet" calculation shows that BA generates about £100 - £120m of cash per year AFTER paying interest and average reinvestment in assets
From this BA has the "choice" of
Pay off some debt, which it does need to do for long term survival
Pay a dividend
Pay towards the deficit
So, in true accountant fashion, the answer is it depends!
If you use all the surplus for the pension,the debt will stay and a £200m interest bill will stay with it. A small downturn could then cripple the company
To do all these BA would need to generate about £400m per year (My guess not BA figures)
A "back of the fag packet" calculation shows that BA generates about £100 - £120m of cash per year AFTER paying interest and average reinvestment in assets
From this BA has the "choice" of
Pay off some debt, which it does need to do for long term survival
Pay a dividend
Pay towards the deficit
So, in true accountant fashion, the answer is it depends!
If you use all the surplus for the pension,the debt will stay and a £200m interest bill will stay with it. A small downturn could then cripple the company
To do all these BA would need to generate about £400m per year (My guess not BA figures)
Controversial, moi?
sky9 is , unfortunately, one of those who does not live in the real world.
I work for BA, I work hard, I get paid well for my experience and responsibilities but this issue is about downgrading my Ts & Cs.
If those criticising care to remove their green tinted spectacles they might understand why we are so incensed.
I work for BA, I work hard, I get paid well for my experience and responsibilities but this issue is about downgrading my Ts & Cs.
If those criticising care to remove their green tinted spectacles they might understand why we are so incensed.
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Come on....to try and compare BA Pilots with Doctors and Lawyers et al is false and misleading.
Just imagine if your GP only worked 900 hours a year max? My brother is a doctor in London, he often works 70hrs a week, plus he is on call and is paid a pittance compared to me and all I do is, lets be honest now, enjoy a few decents night stops and fill in the crossword at FL370.
I'm not happy about the pension situation, but many BA FC choose to have the pension and hours of a doctor or lawyer??
Just imagine if your GP only worked 900 hours a year max? My brother is a doctor in London, he often works 70hrs a week, plus he is on call and is paid a pittance compared to me and all I do is, lets be honest now, enjoy a few decents night stops and fill in the crossword at FL370.
I'm not happy about the pension situation, but many BA FC choose to have the pension and hours of a doctor or lawyer??
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Originally Posted by nemutai
paid to become a pilot and trained in about 18 months, not studied for 5,6,7 years to get degrees whilst NOT getting paid.
It makes me sick
It makes me sick
Oh and I studied for a degree for 3 years.
Oh and the job I was left was better paid, a couple of my mates still working for my old firm have 6 figure salaries where the first digit is a 2, and they're in their early thirties.
This whole thread is about BA trying to change the terms of our contracts when they can afford to pay, I am not prepared to fund new aircraft and not prepared to prop up other departments that haven't contributed to cost cutting to the same degree as we have. FFS we even funded the flight engineers redundency package a couple of years ago - yep that's right the pilots paid up for it when the company wasn't prepared to. Right now they can f**k off if they want anymore.
BB
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Good post BB. However I am quite happy to have my pay compared to a doctor. I'll make a PA tonight asking if theres a doctor on board and if one responds I'll go and have a seat in the cabin and let him land the aircraft. Lets see how overpaid they think I am then.
BTW last time I checked the requirements for becoming a lawyer were three years at uni (largely memoriing stuff, not a technically difficult course) followed by a year at law college followed by a couple of years professional training on a rather good salary. Hardly a demanding career path.
BTW last time I checked the requirements for becoming a lawyer were three years at uni (largely memoriing stuff, not a technically difficult course) followed by a year at law college followed by a couple of years professional training on a rather good salary. Hardly a demanding career path.
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Originally Posted by DarkStar
Just imagine if your GP only worked 900 hours a year max? My brother is a doctor in London, he often works 70hrs a week, plus he is on call and is paid a pittance compared to me and all I do is, lets be honest now, enjoy a few decents night stops and fill in the crossword at FL370.
I'm not happy about the pension situation, but many BA FC choose to have the pension and hours of a doctor or lawyer??
I'm not happy about the pension situation, but many BA FC choose to have the pension and hours of a doctor or lawyer??
In aviation this heirarchy exists with the self improver hour builder/insrtuctor at one end and the BA long haul training Capt at the other end. The thing I don't understand is that within aviation there are so many green eyed monsters staring up the food chain and mouthing off - what they should be doing is climbing the branches and be happy that the BA pilots are not contributing to the downward pressure on Ts and Cs on our profession - that's the job of the Accountants.
BB