BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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P-T-Gamekeeper - A few selected quotes from you:
Congratulations.
Sounds exactly the reason why I left shorthaul, and given that you don't work for BA currently any comparison between your lifetyle and hers is pretty meaningless in the context of this thread. I'm sure Mrs P-T won't complain when you're force drafted on the weekend of that very important event you both had planned.
I'm not so sure you are joining with your eyes open given your quotes about lifestlye. Are you aware that, according to the BALPA benchmarking group, VS pilots are earning 15% more per hour than BA pilots, yet they are still pushing for a 20% payrise this year?
as I will be a Nigel next month
2. Lifestyle
She leaves the house at 7.30 and returns between 7 & 9 every night, working weekends when required. She is expected to work unpaid overtime when required by the company, and not doing so would be career ending. She is constantly knackered. and would swap for my lifestyle in a second.
She leaves the house at 7.30 and returns between 7 & 9 every night, working weekends when required. She is expected to work unpaid overtime when required by the company, and not doing so would be career ending. She is constantly knackered. and would swap for my lifestyle in a second.
All in all, I am joining BA with my eyes wide open...............but in my view, it is still the best deal in the marketplace
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What fleet are you on HS?
I'm on the 75/6 and I have a great lifestyle. If you are A320 or 777 I might agree with you, but I wouldn't swap for the lifestyle of a lawyer or accountant for all the tea in China.
I'm on the 75/6 and I have a great lifestyle. If you are A320 or 777 I might agree with you, but I wouldn't swap for the lifestyle of a lawyer or accountant for all the tea in China.
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Well on the holiday fleet you wouldn't understand.
Five years of time theft at both ends of the day, endless hassle, running round like a blue-arsed fly after aircraft all day and the general endless bollox of LHR meant I was glad to leave the 320.
Five years of time theft at both ends of the day, endless hassle, running round like a blue-arsed fly after aircraft all day and the general endless bollox of LHR meant I was glad to leave the 320.
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And therein lies the usual problem... Too many disparate (or do I mean desperate? he he) groups, each with their own entirely different agendas.
Probably pensions is the only thing that would ever unite MOST of us in a single cause.
As an aside, I am amazed at the some of the sniping from other (non BA) pilots. Surely all professional pilots on this BB are agreed that the T&Cs throughout our industry have gone south over the past 10/20 years? Shouldn't you all be wanting us to get the best T&Cs possible, to help drive the rest of the market upwards? Roll on the predicted pilot shortage, I say!
Probably pensions is the only thing that would ever unite MOST of us in a single cause.
As an aside, I am amazed at the some of the sniping from other (non BA) pilots. Surely all professional pilots on this BB are agreed that the T&Cs throughout our industry have gone south over the past 10/20 years? Shouldn't you all be wanting us to get the best T&Cs possible, to help drive the rest of the market upwards? Roll on the predicted pilot shortage, I say!
Last edited by beaver eager; 18th Jan 2006 at 19:38.
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OK, some of our T and C's have gone south, but then so have so many others in so many other jobs. That's not to say we shouldn't fight for them, but we should be realistic about it. I wouldn't swap for a job with an American carrier - as the "fighting" for their terms and conditions has caused some of the problems they have, which in turn erode their T and C's massively when the need to keep heads above water arises. Look at United's pension problem for instance, I wouldn't swap for that.
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BA Pension nightmare
According to some of the Captains and F/Os, they would be more than happy for BirdSeed Airways to go bankrupt.
Who would accept their employer 'laundering' pension contributions and then saying that their pension scheme is being altered (to suit the company) and the expected final payout will be up to 45% less than expected! It dosent matter who the employer is - its the principle. Its not the employees fault that things didnt go according to plan in the financial scheme of things. They paid in faithfully and kept their part of the contractural agreement. However if the company, led by the ever charismatic Captain Willie 'Wonka' Walsh continues to imply that 'thats the way it is - take it or leave it', then brace yourself for a long, hot summer yet again...
Story is that a new aircraft order is imminent. Maybe the money should have been diverted elsewhere. Thing is, without the flt/cbn crew and the ground support staff, lots of shiny new B777-326ERs are useless... Nice one Willie
Who would accept their employer 'laundering' pension contributions and then saying that their pension scheme is being altered (to suit the company) and the expected final payout will be up to 45% less than expected! It dosent matter who the employer is - its the principle. Its not the employees fault that things didnt go according to plan in the financial scheme of things. They paid in faithfully and kept their part of the contractural agreement. However if the company, led by the ever charismatic Captain Willie 'Wonka' Walsh continues to imply that 'thats the way it is - take it or leave it', then brace yourself for a long, hot summer yet again...
Story is that a new aircraft order is imminent. Maybe the money should have been diverted elsewhere. Thing is, without the flt/cbn crew and the ground support staff, lots of shiny new B777-326ERs are useless... Nice one Willie
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I wouldn't swap for a job with an American carrier - as the "fighting" for their terms and conditions has caused some of the problems they have, which in turn erode their T and C's massively when the need to keep heads above water arises.
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Of course its all relative - but in real terms the American guys have lost a huge percentage of their wages and pensions.
If you had been an earner of their wages, and had lived the lifestyle that allowed, then had it taken away, or severely curtailed it would be pretty bad.
Those who come into aviation with the hope of earning the salary of a senior partner in a law firm are entering the business with their eyes shut. Those entering the profession with more realistic expectations will be happier.
Those realistic expectations should include a decent pension - and the things promised at interview. These include a final salary pension for NAPS people, and and "industry leading" defined contribution scheme for the BARP people. that is why it is worth a strike. Striking because we are not paid the same as a law partner or GP is not and is misguided in my opinion.
If you had been an earner of their wages, and had lived the lifestyle that allowed, then had it taken away, or severely curtailed it would be pretty bad.
Those who come into aviation with the hope of earning the salary of a senior partner in a law firm are entering the business with their eyes shut. Those entering the profession with more realistic expectations will be happier.
Those realistic expectations should include a decent pension - and the things promised at interview. These include a final salary pension for NAPS people, and and "industry leading" defined contribution scheme for the BARP people. that is why it is worth a strike. Striking because we are not paid the same as a law partner or GP is not and is misguided in my opinion.
Controversial, moi?
I feel for the many, many pilots in the USA laid off, out of work or suffering massive reductions in pay/pensions.
Two points though, BA makes money whereas I believe only South West does so in the USA, and it could be argued, given the eye watering salaries that were previously earned, that it was the egg which helped kill the golden goose.
The above is said without feelings of envy or joy.
Two points though, BA makes money whereas I believe only South West does so in the USA, and it could be argued, given the eye watering salaries that were previously earned, that it was the egg which helped kill the golden goose.
The above is said without feelings of envy or joy.
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That is pretty much how I feel, hence my suggestion of the need to be reasonable.
A reasonable solution to the problem will have a reasonable outome.
An unreasonable solution will precipitate a strike. Simple.
A reasonable solution to the problem will have a reasonable outome.
An unreasonable solution will precipitate a strike. Simple.
I've no dog in the fight so to speak but ornithopter has pretty much nailed it.
Everyone talking about striking etc - I'd suggest you spend a few days talking with your age group who are not pilots.
Pilots remind me of nothing as much as professional athletes. A combination of skills, luck and mostly perserverance has gotten you to the "bigs". Your job isn't like the rest of us and your pay isn't either. Like most athletes you'd do it for free but thankfully some one pays you do what you've always wanted. Deep down inside there is that fear that someday someone is going to twig to how much was luck and your really aren't that special.
Get outside your little clique and you are going to find a really rude world out there. It's changed. Want to really scare yourself. Pick up a paper and see what you can get outside of flying with your current skills. A lot of people are in that situation. Try finding a job where being average on the annual evaluation gets you a guaranteed pay rise every year.
The biggest mistake you can make is not recognizing what’s happening out there. Work to get a reasonable deal for today’s world and you'll come out OK. The biggest thing you've got going for you is BA is making money. Screw with that and you'll screw yourself.
20driver
PS – You are not irreplaceable – don’t even think it.
Everyone talking about striking etc - I'd suggest you spend a few days talking with your age group who are not pilots.
Pilots remind me of nothing as much as professional athletes. A combination of skills, luck and mostly perserverance has gotten you to the "bigs". Your job isn't like the rest of us and your pay isn't either. Like most athletes you'd do it for free but thankfully some one pays you do what you've always wanted. Deep down inside there is that fear that someday someone is going to twig to how much was luck and your really aren't that special.
Get outside your little clique and you are going to find a really rude world out there. It's changed. Want to really scare yourself. Pick up a paper and see what you can get outside of flying with your current skills. A lot of people are in that situation. Try finding a job where being average on the annual evaluation gets you a guaranteed pay rise every year.
The biggest mistake you can make is not recognizing what’s happening out there. Work to get a reasonable deal for today’s world and you'll come out OK. The biggest thing you've got going for you is BA is making money. Screw with that and you'll screw yourself.
20driver
PS – You are not irreplaceable – don’t even think it.
Controversial, moi?
Actually I wouldn't do the job if it wasn't well paid, any more than a barrister or a surgeon probably wouldn't.
I would go back to my previous profession where I earned around 75% of what I earn now with nowhere near the responsibility, jetlag and days away from home.
As it was so easy to get to where I am now I could always come back to it.
I would go back to my previous profession where I earned around 75% of what I earn now with nowhere near the responsibility, jetlag and days away from home.
As it was so easy to get to where I am now I could always come back to it.
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Like most athletes you'd do it for free but thankfully some one pays you do what you've always wanted. Deep down inside there is that fear that someday someone is going to twig to how much was luck and your really aren't that special.
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But most pilots and cabin crew know full well that they are "stuck" with an airline and that after a few years they're not really employable elsewhere. Money is understandably THE incentive, but the actual job never changes unlike other professions where you develop and move into new areas.
I suppose the thread is really about crews who know full well that the golden age is over and that something has to give - and that they will have to change.
I suppose the thread is really about crews who know full well that the golden age is over and that something has to give - and that they will have to change.
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"Stuck" with an airline? Have you missed the large recruitment campaigns by Etihad, Emirates, Easyjet, Ryanair, Qatar Airways Air India, SIA and BA? Pilots are highly employable elsewhere but in most cases the cost of changing employer means its not worthwhile. That, for the benefit of 20driver, is why being average on the annual evaluation gets you a guaranteed pay rise every year, because if that didn't happen those highly employable staff would be changing employer every other year.
As for the actual job never changing, well it certainly changed when I went from flying high frequency short haul flights in Europe to long haul flights worldwide in a different aircraft type. When I get bored with that I'll probably go for a command ona different aircraft type with another change. Perhaps going into training could be an option. Or, God forbid, management. Plenty of variety here, unlike say medicine or law where all you do is spend your career doing boring old medicine or law.
As for the actual job never changing, well it certainly changed when I went from flying high frequency short haul flights in Europe to long haul flights worldwide in a different aircraft type. When I get bored with that I'll probably go for a command ona different aircraft type with another change. Perhaps going into training could be an option. Or, God forbid, management. Plenty of variety here, unlike say medicine or law where all you do is spend your career doing boring old medicine or law.
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20 Driver - as HS alludes, I think if you look at the imminent market forces, ie massive lack of pilots world wide, then pay and T&C elsewhere can only rise. Let's imagine WW messes with the pensions and virtually simultaneously Emirates or Ethihad open a London base - there would be no need to strike would there?
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20driver - you may agree with my sentiment about other jobs, but please don't tar me with your brush. I would have flown aircraft for nothing a few years ago, and still would in the right circumstance (eg flying a light aircraft to give people a ride, for disabled children etc), however, I wouldn't do it COMMERCIALLY for nothing. If you do that, all you are doing is letting rich people get richer at your expense. I need to pay the mortgage somehow and spending my time flying without earning money won't do that.
The key here is whether we are being exploited or not. I don't think for one minute that if we were flying humanitarian flights that anyone would be looking to make a stand. What we are looking at here, is hard working people, earning money for an employer, who then wants to take away a promised reward. If BA were about to go bust - different story. If BA were on the edge of profitability - different story. If other groups in BA were as lean and hard working as us - different story. The fact is that BA has wastage in plenty of areas that could be better controlled. Despite that, it is a very profitable company. Why should our promised deferred pay be taken from us, when BA are a profitable company and can afford, at least, to give us a fair, reasonable deal?
Sean - if Etihad opened a base at LHR, it wouldn't have that much affect on BA. They could only take a handful of pilots in comparison to BA's total, so the dent wouldn't be sufficient to change conditions much. Secondly, if people did go to another airline, it would be a fairly fast thing, wheras changing conditions is not. We would have to wait a significant time for things to change and by that time irreversible damage may have been done to the pension, hence the need to fight now!
In my view the changes made to the pension must be reversible.
The key here is whether we are being exploited or not. I don't think for one minute that if we were flying humanitarian flights that anyone would be looking to make a stand. What we are looking at here, is hard working people, earning money for an employer, who then wants to take away a promised reward. If BA were about to go bust - different story. If BA were on the edge of profitability - different story. If other groups in BA were as lean and hard working as us - different story. The fact is that BA has wastage in plenty of areas that could be better controlled. Despite that, it is a very profitable company. Why should our promised deferred pay be taken from us, when BA are a profitable company and can afford, at least, to give us a fair, reasonable deal?
Sean - if Etihad opened a base at LHR, it wouldn't have that much affect on BA. They could only take a handful of pilots in comparison to BA's total, so the dent wouldn't be sufficient to change conditions much. Secondly, if people did go to another airline, it would be a fairly fast thing, wheras changing conditions is not. We would have to wait a significant time for things to change and by that time irreversible damage may have been done to the pension, hence the need to fight now!
In my view the changes made to the pension must be reversible.
Paxing All Over The World
Hand Solo
I thought that it was Gary Player, the South African golfer but I now see it attributed to Arnold Palmer (USA) “It's a funny thing, the more I practice the luckier I get”
Who was it that said "The more I practice the luckier I get"?
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ornithopter - nice post, but:
Because WW thinks that dealing with a split BALPA full of rowing Nigels who are life committed to a seniority list is like taking candy from a baby.
Fair??? Reasonable deal?? Boo hooo, you better get 100% united pretty quick and toughen yourselves up!! This is classic union busting, not a sunday school cake sale.
He once said dealing with IALPA was like clubbing baby seals, as it turned out his club wasn't big enough for the daddy Walrus he created!!!
His motivation? Not the money or bonuses, for him it's a game, a sport.
Like Predator.
Why should our promised deferred pay be taken from us, when BA are a profitable company and can afford, at least, to give us a fair, reasonable deal?
Fair??? Reasonable deal?? Boo hooo, you better get 100% united pretty quick and toughen yourselves up!! This is classic union busting, not a sunday school cake sale.
He once said dealing with IALPA was like clubbing baby seals, as it turned out his club wasn't big enough for the daddy Walrus he created!!!
His motivation? Not the money or bonuses, for him it's a game, a sport.
Like Predator.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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They could only take a handful of pilots in comparison to BA's total, so the dent wouldn't be sufficient to change conditions much.