BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Its only a month since you were singing Willie's praises for taking out 600 managers in the 'willie swings his axe thread'. Don't know why you didn't see this coming
This is surely a court battle over contracts not a strike. you're playing into his hands......he will have prepared for and you have not.
There are people in the wings who will accept your jobs on terms lower than yours but better than they're on, they're rated on the types you fly, they have TRE's, they can do your work and they are sitting in jobs at home and around the globe waiting for it. They would be here in a heartbeat.
We have been expecting this battle for a long time, we have planned, we have prepared, we have countered BAs internal propaganda at every opportunity and if the management don't take note of that it will be they who are in for a most unpleasant surprise.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Fine I have nothing to worry about. talk of a strike is hot air.
The point of my post is fight in the court where you can win not on a picket line where you can't.
The pilots I speak of may not have applied because they have no intention of coming as an FO but if you were talking direct to command or training the situation is different. plenty of expats want to come home. Even Easy jet has a number of 777 drivers that have not applied to you, the others would be available for the right positions,. It wouldn't take long to get them on line either, If they're rated and current just an OPC and minimal line sectors.
I don't think all of BA pilots would face the prospect of losing their jobs, just the top end most affected most expensive.
Dont get angry, there is no point wasting your energy. Take from this what you like disregard the rest, just like anything else in print.
The point of my post is fight in the court where you can win not on a picket line where you can't.
The pilots I speak of may not have applied because they have no intention of coming as an FO but if you were talking direct to command or training the situation is different. plenty of expats want to come home. Even Easy jet has a number of 777 drivers that have not applied to you, the others would be available for the right positions,. It wouldn't take long to get them on line either, If they're rated and current just an OPC and minimal line sectors.
I don't think all of BA pilots would face the prospect of losing their jobs, just the top end most affected most expensive.
Dont get angry, there is no point wasting your energy. Take from this what you like disregard the rest, just like anything else in print.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Arrghh, wrote very long post about pensions, that then disappeared. Gist was:
- There is a big problem with FSP. E.g. when my father started work, he was actuarially expected to live to 58 (pre-independence Nigeria, booze & malaria cut short most expats). He is now in his 70's. This is no-ones fault, apart from maybe Fleming and his penicillin
- At least BA is about 80% covered by funds, govt pensions are 0% covered
- You have about 40-45 years working life to save (either forced saving by taxes and pensions, or yourself) enough to last you 20-30 years. Savings ratio in UK is very low - we are all guilty of short-termism, of preferring a new car now, rather than not worrying about heating bills when you are 85
- In hindsight, companies should never have offered FSP - it is such a huge gamble on what the world will be like in 30-50 years time. (intererestingly, actuarial calculations on survivor pensions rates are now getting skewed by second marriages. With viagra and cheap air travel, some people's pensions will be still be paying out 50 years after they retire...)
- Not just a UK problem, worldwide. But UK is more transparent about it. Ford & GM are in deep doo doo. We all know about UA.
For BA - in their shoes I would take the 1.4bn hit and start again. May mean that B744 will have to fly until they are 25 years old, not 20, but big deal.
Not time to go into an accounting explanation, but profits are not cash flow.
In a way, my father was lucky. The pension plan went tits up in his thirties, and he still had enough time to make other savings. Must be awful in be in your 50's, responsibilities to children, mortgages etc., and then have this sprung on you.
I have a DC plan. In many ways safer than a DB plan, as more and more are unfortunately finding out.
This isn't new, it has been known for a long time - which is why for the last generation or so any company starting up uses DC, not DB (e,g, South West), and why Thatcher linked state pension to inflation, not earnings, 20 years ago.
- There is a big problem with FSP. E.g. when my father started work, he was actuarially expected to live to 58 (pre-independence Nigeria, booze & malaria cut short most expats). He is now in his 70's. This is no-ones fault, apart from maybe Fleming and his penicillin
- At least BA is about 80% covered by funds, govt pensions are 0% covered
- You have about 40-45 years working life to save (either forced saving by taxes and pensions, or yourself) enough to last you 20-30 years. Savings ratio in UK is very low - we are all guilty of short-termism, of preferring a new car now, rather than not worrying about heating bills when you are 85
- In hindsight, companies should never have offered FSP - it is such a huge gamble on what the world will be like in 30-50 years time. (intererestingly, actuarial calculations on survivor pensions rates are now getting skewed by second marriages. With viagra and cheap air travel, some people's pensions will be still be paying out 50 years after they retire...)
- Not just a UK problem, worldwide. But UK is more transparent about it. Ford & GM are in deep doo doo. We all know about UA.
For BA - in their shoes I would take the 1.4bn hit and start again. May mean that B744 will have to fly until they are 25 years old, not 20, but big deal.
Not time to go into an accounting explanation, but profits are not cash flow.
In a way, my father was lucky. The pension plan went tits up in his thirties, and he still had enough time to make other savings. Must be awful in be in your 50's, responsibilities to children, mortgages etc., and then have this sprung on you.
I have a DC plan. In many ways safer than a DB plan, as more and more are unfortunately finding out.
This isn't new, it has been known for a long time - which is why for the last generation or so any company starting up uses DC, not DB (e,g, South West), and why Thatcher linked state pension to inflation, not earnings, 20 years ago.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
A reply for Millers Court then perhaps we can continue with the subject thread.
1. Compared to my previous airline I have every reason to wax lyrical about my new employers.
2. Yes, other people have had their grievences which I may be sympathetic to despite your inference to the contrary. Please dont make assumptions.
3. What has our decision to leave JB and your "advice" got to do with the thread? Are you aware of all of our reasons and thus able to comment knowledgeably on them?
4. I knew what the deal was with my current employer when I signed the contract and was happy to do so. I remain happy.
5. By comparing BA Pensions issues with SIA daily Ts and Cs you are not comparing like with like.
6. Thank you for taking so much interest in me. I am very flattered.
Good luck to the guys in BA. My support may only be of the moral variety and from 8000 miles away but it is there all the same.
1. Compared to my previous airline I have every reason to wax lyrical about my new employers.
2. Yes, other people have had their grievences which I may be sympathetic to despite your inference to the contrary. Please dont make assumptions.
3. What has our decision to leave JB and your "advice" got to do with the thread? Are you aware of all of our reasons and thus able to comment knowledgeably on them?
4. I knew what the deal was with my current employer when I signed the contract and was happy to do so. I remain happy.
5. By comparing BA Pensions issues with SIA daily Ts and Cs you are not comparing like with like.
6. Thank you for taking so much interest in me. I am very flattered.
Good luck to the guys in BA. My support may only be of the moral variety and from 8000 miles away but it is there all the same.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Hand Solo,
Firstly apologies for all the "Errors" in my post.
He can get you doing more of that 900 hours sat in the hotseat and not asleep in the bunk clocking up allowances. Of course there are productivity enhancement options, in both LH and SH which are currently restricted by UNION working conditions.
Spilt 49/51, just a figure of speech, who knows what the spilt would be, it's irrelevent, the guys across the seniority list, not just in the middle will all have different agendas, and unfortunately 100% unity will be difficult to attain.
Irrelevent. Include that in your strike ballot then! 
Probably a good idea as BALPA will need to attack WW, you ask for the world as well, bang your heads together and you'll come out evens! I assume a Virgin/Emirates Pilot doing 900 hours' total package still costs less than a senior BA Pilot doing 900 hours.
Yes I agree, but are ALL BA's 3 and 4 pilot routes due to CAA or BALPA rules???
Firstly apologies for all the "Errors" in my post.
Most long haul pilots are already approaching the 900 hr limit. WW can't get any more productivity, all he can do is try to replace the Bidline rostering system with Carmen.
The Pilots will be split 49/51 and give WW what he really wants, the optimum result for BA.
Error 2: Even with the all senior guys on the oldest pension and all the junior guys on the newest pension voting together, they still represent less than a third of all BA pilots.
Error 2: Even with the all senior guys on the oldest pension and all the junior guys on the newest pension voting together, they still represent less than a third of all BA pilots.
Unprecendented massive cost / crewing savings to bring you in line with your main future competitors Emirates, Virgin, Etihad, BMI, Qatar, Kingfisher etc
Error 3:If you want to lower my work levels to the level of Virgin (750 hourds per year, any extra on overtime) I'd be quite happy.
Error 3:If you want to lower my work levels to the level of Virgin (750 hourds per year, any extra on overtime) I'd be quite happy.
Probably a good idea as BALPA will need to attack WW, you ask for the world as well, bang your heads together and you'll come out evens! I assume a Virgin/Emirates Pilot doing 900 hours' total package still costs less than a senior BA Pilot doing 900 hours.
Do you think all those 777-300ER's will come with crew rest facilities etc???
Error 4:If they want to use them on ER routes they'll have to so says the CAA.
Quote:
Do you think you'll still be flying with Heavy crews?
Error 5: You can't fly long range without heavy crews, unless willy thinks he can change the flight time limitations too.
Error 4:If they want to use them on ER routes they'll have to so says the CAA.
Quote:
Do you think you'll still be flying with Heavy crews?
Error 5: You can't fly long range without heavy crews, unless willy thinks he can change the flight time limitations too.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
You can't fly long range without heavy crews, unless willy thinks he can change the flight time limitations too.
Like many others who have responded to this thread, I am not a BA pilot. However, I sincerely hope that this issue is resolved to everyones satisfaction. If it is not and the value of employees pensions is eroded then it will set a very strong precedent for my (and many others) employer to start looking closely at the way company pensions are funded.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Big Tudor - BA have tried to increase CAP 371 limits in the not too distant past by asking to discount time in the bunk from the annual 900hrs limit. The CAA sent them packing in short order. BA still has the same fleet of aircraft flying the same type of routes except now the pilots are all closer to the 900 hour limit. It would be interesting to see how BA would try to claim that flying more was now actually less fatiguing than when they previously tried it on.
Suvarnabhumi - most of the heavy crew flying in BA is due to FTL restrictions, not union restrictions, the difference between the two rarely being more than about half an hour. Of course WW could remove the third pilot on trips where he was only required in one direction but then he'd have to position that pilot out to operate the return service (at the cost of a seat in the cabin). Also said pilot would still be doing a days work by positioning, so no extra days would be available to BA to use him, and the company would lose the FTL advantages of an extra pilot. I can guarantee you there'd be no use of discretion on a 2 man long range trip planned to CAP 371 limits, and those in BA know that an awful lot of flights require a lot of goodwill and often discretion to get away from LHR.
Your assumption about a Virgin pilot being cheaper than a BA pilot hour for hour is also incorrect. VS may be cheaper up to 750 hours but once they get over that their overtime is very expensive, and also entirely at the discretion of the pilot unlike in BA. When you compare BA to VS on BA flying hour totals the two are very very close.
By the way, how does the cost of living in Dubai compare to the UK these days?
Suvarnabhumi - most of the heavy crew flying in BA is due to FTL restrictions, not union restrictions, the difference between the two rarely being more than about half an hour. Of course WW could remove the third pilot on trips where he was only required in one direction but then he'd have to position that pilot out to operate the return service (at the cost of a seat in the cabin). Also said pilot would still be doing a days work by positioning, so no extra days would be available to BA to use him, and the company would lose the FTL advantages of an extra pilot. I can guarantee you there'd be no use of discretion on a 2 man long range trip planned to CAP 371 limits, and those in BA know that an awful lot of flights require a lot of goodwill and often discretion to get away from LHR.
Your assumption about a Virgin pilot being cheaper than a BA pilot hour for hour is also incorrect. VS may be cheaper up to 750 hours but once they get over that their overtime is very expensive, and also entirely at the discretion of the pilot unlike in BA. When you compare BA to VS on BA flying hour totals the two are very very close.
By the way, how does the cost of living in Dubai compare to the UK these days?
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
There are probably many 777 rated guys at ek who would fill your places in a flash.Probably the same ones moaning about DEC and how wrong it is. Or maybe Im wrong .In their victim mentality but moral high ground values they will only apply as f/os , as DEC is wrong.Time will tell.
For the other types add to the mix, endless short term contractors from the likes of AAI and the agencies and the Ba crew room will start to resemble a star wars bar with all the various creatures and licence validations floating around. Dont forget the itinerant aussies and scandanavians as well, modern day gypsies, all "wrongfully robbed" of commands elsewhere.Oh and did i forget your new , not interested in your old contract pension, colleagues.
Dont forget walsh is a poacher turned gamekeeeper , knows your tatics. and knows all the shortcuts to cheap labour
But good luck anyway
For the other types add to the mix, endless short term contractors from the likes of AAI and the agencies and the Ba crew room will start to resemble a star wars bar with all the various creatures and licence validations floating around. Dont forget the itinerant aussies and scandanavians as well, modern day gypsies, all "wrongfully robbed" of commands elsewhere.Oh and did i forget your new , not interested in your old contract pension, colleagues.
Dont forget walsh is a poacher turned gamekeeeper , knows your tatics. and knows all the shortcuts to cheap labour
But good luck anyway
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
As I said before, we're not irreplaceable, but we are irreplaceable in a hurry. It's illegal in the UK to selectively sack workers engaged in a legal strike. Thats means if WW wants heads to roll during a strike he'll have to see 2500heads rolling, meaning most of his long haul pilots, all of his short haul Captains and most of the FOs too. With few TREs remaining he's going to be hard pressed to get any sizeable service up and running to the satisfaction of the CAA before BA has either gone bust or cancelled so many services that they fail to meet the 80% utilisation requirement for their LHR slots and lose lots of those. Step forward bmi to rightfully claim them and you're left with a BA with a rag tag collection of hurriedly trained pilots, many of whom will be inexperienced on type, a public image in tatters and a whole load of strategically vital LHR slots lost for good.
Did I mention if he sacks staff for striking then it's illegal for him to employ anyone to replace them for 90 days? Even Gate Gourmet fell foul of that one! Do you think that BA will be able to wet lease enough capacity to cover the operation for three months, and do you think they'll still have any customers left when Mr Business Class pitches up and finds his flat bed to ORD has been replaced by an aging sardine tine operated by AAI?
Did I mention if he sacks staff for striking then it's illegal for him to employ anyone to replace them for 90 days? Even Gate Gourmet fell foul of that one! Do you think that BA will be able to wet lease enough capacity to cover the operation for three months, and do you think they'll still have any customers left when Mr Business Class pitches up and finds his flat bed to ORD has been replaced by an aging sardine tine operated by AAI?
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Yep, well prepared.
Don't do it.
There is an arrogance about your stance similar to the arrogance that I read on previous threads which says that being the most profitable airline should be enough for the city and share holders.
Don't do it.
There is an arrogance about your stance similar to the arrogance that I read on previous threads which says that being the most profitable airline should be enough for the city and share holders.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
I don't believe there's an arrogange about my post but there is defeatism about yours. You say you want BA pilots to win but then imply there is no hope. You believe that when BA unilaterally alter our contracts we can pursue them through the courts in order to win back our pensions? Even when they take it to the highest court in the land? Even when they delay, stall and continue to avoid payments into a pension fund which they have chosen to no longer contribute to? You seem to place great faith in the abilities of the lawyers, a faith which I don't share.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Not defeatism at all. Yes it is a court battle. You need to get on side every other affected group, there will be many. Add to that the best final salary pension in the land belong to MP's. Two parties have changed their leadership and need a cause to back, you should be getting them on side too. Maybe the next election wont be won by the party for education but by the party who supports the growing demographic of pensioners. Who knows?
I say one final thing, when you say WW cant do something or won't do something, it is really easy for me to say he can and will. But You have to gamble that you are right and I am wrong; plenty of people will say I told you so if you're wrong, me I just walk away unscathed. There is an arrogance about your post. I just read it again to be sure. You hold the cards, but it's also your own money you're gambling with.
Fortunately, this is a very public forum, and no doubt this post was started for a reason and irrespective of what goes on here better brains (lawyers I hope) are at work behind the scenes thinking this one through. I hope you don't strike but I also hope you win this battle and look forward to saying well done but it is a long way in the future.
I say one final thing, when you say WW cant do something or won't do something, it is really easy for me to say he can and will. But You have to gamble that you are right and I am wrong; plenty of people will say I told you so if you're wrong, me I just walk away unscathed. There is an arrogance about your post. I just read it again to be sure. You hold the cards, but it's also your own money you're gambling with.
Fortunately, this is a very public forum, and no doubt this post was started for a reason and irrespective of what goes on here better brains (lawyers I hope) are at work behind the scenes thinking this one through. I hope you don't strike but I also hope you win this battle and look forward to saying well done but it is a long way in the future.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
I can't believe I've been reading such inane comments from individuals who are supposed to be intelligent and responsible. Thank heavens none of you run a business - it wouldn't last 10 minutes. How about taking your heads out of the sand and coming to terms with the reality that faces the business, and the fact that action has to be taken. No - it's not going to be popular and no - it's a very difficult situation that maybe should have been tackled many years ago - but it's here and now, and staring us in the face.
I can't recall reading a single comment that offers a proposal to tackle the problem - just negative childish whinges.
I'd have much more respect for comments if a serious alternative proposal was tabled that found a way of tackling the £1.4million deficit. Shouts, screams and threats are actions of the 1950's. How about some sensible comments.
I can't recall reading a single comment that offers a proposal to tackle the problem - just negative childish whinges.
I'd have much more respect for comments if a serious alternative proposal was tabled that found a way of tackling the £1.4million deficit. Shouts, screams and threats are actions of the 1950's. How about some sensible comments.
Controversial, moi?
Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
OK Jordan, I'll start.
How about senior management foregoing their 150 - 250% bonuses to avoid being cauight by Robber Brown's pension CAP.
How about being honest with BA's accounts e.g. BA's property portfolio was last valued in 1995 and is shown on the books at a ludicrously low value, ditto BA's LHR slots.
I generally dislike unions and militancy having grown up in the 60 and 70s when they were collectively ruining the UK. I now realise that without a union and the occasional display of militancy I WILL be walked over by those lining their own pockets at my expense.
I could go on but if I thought we had honest management I would indeed be far more a part of the solution.
What has also been missed from the current pensions debate is how a significant part of the problem has been engineered by the government. Nothing to do with good old labour class hatred I suppose.
Would you care to tell us what your line of work is?
How about senior management foregoing their 150 - 250% bonuses to avoid being cauight by Robber Brown's pension CAP.
How about being honest with BA's accounts e.g. BA's property portfolio was last valued in 1995 and is shown on the books at a ludicrously low value, ditto BA's LHR slots.
I generally dislike unions and militancy having grown up in the 60 and 70s when they were collectively ruining the UK. I now realise that without a union and the occasional display of militancy I WILL be walked over by those lining their own pockets at my expense.
I could go on but if I thought we had honest management I would indeed be far more a part of the solution.
What has also been missed from the current pensions debate is how a significant part of the problem has been engineered by the government. Nothing to do with good old labour class hatred I suppose.
Would you care to tell us what your line of work is?
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
I don't read much about other sections of BA not being happy with changes talked about, are they asleep.
Would suggest they stump up some cash for BALPA to help on this issue, like the larger advert, probably the best cash they will ever spend.
Good Luck to all the staff at BA.
Would suggest they stump up some cash for BALPA to help on this issue, like the larger advert, probably the best cash they will ever spend.
Good Luck to all the staff at BA.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Right youse is all fired. Oive had a wee word wit auld michael and he says i can borrow a few of his boyos all Captains all under 23 and all rich enough dat dey dont want a feckin pension. Now away an sh1te youse whinging brits.
If yee want a scapegoat its fecking cromwells fault to be sure. Youse should have left us alone to trot in the bogs and shag the wee people.
If yee want a scapegoat its fecking cromwells fault to be sure. Youse should have left us alone to trot in the bogs and shag the wee people.