BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Great idea, but would you trust the company to be honest about it's profitability in such circumstances? I am reminded of the recent alleged quote from a senior bean-counter... "We're running out of places to hide the money".
BA and most of the Unions have reached a tentative agreement about pensions tonight. Press release on it's way. Official announcement by BA to the London Stock exchange on Monday followed by our briefings.
Ballot to follow............
Ballot to follow............
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BA pensions problem
The T and G abstained at the meeting on Friday, they could not agree to the deal today but reserved judgement. As stated by the T and G deputy general Secretary Jack Dromey. in a messsage to Bassa members.
The deal proposed is only worth another 8 million according to the T and G (so it must be pretty close to the original offer).
As I predicted BALPA chickened out of a strike and went with the flow of the other unions, BA stated if they did not agree today they would impose their (BA) solution next Tuesday.... so much for a strong BALPA.
I am sure that Monday will reveal that the pensionable pay link to RPI remains.... which was supposed to be an unacceptable BALPA requirement originally.
Balpa is all talk as I said all along with respect to this dispute.
There will be no strike ballot.
The deal proposed is only worth another 8 million according to the T and G (so it must be pretty close to the original offer).
As I predicted BALPA chickened out of a strike and went with the flow of the other unions, BA stated if they did not agree today they would impose their (BA) solution next Tuesday.... so much for a strong BALPA.
I am sure that Monday will reveal that the pensionable pay link to RPI remains.... which was supposed to be an unacceptable BALPA requirement originally.
Balpa is all talk as I said all along with respect to this dispute.
There will be no strike ballot.
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 5th Jan 2007 at 23:25.
Oh FFS, this is making my skin crawl; "The Moose" is not God,......he's a sharp guy who done a great job at negotiating/screwing as much out of the Company as possible without the leverage of a strike ballot, and for that I am very grateful...however by the very nature of negotiation and the beast that is BA there must be more to be had. By all means accept the deal if you have limited aspirations and are happy to hear LCG say " see, I told you you wouldn't strike". By all means accept the deal as long as you understand that all our other whinges over things such as buses, AMP, status, etc, will remain unresolved.
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Please forgive me for intruding.....
I'm not a journo, but just a humble SLF and BA sharholder ( since the flotation) and i support any action that you may take to get what you have worked hard for. Incase you are wondering about my age...my father purchased the shares for me, and on my 18th birthday, they were handed over to me.
But i noticed in todays Daily Mail newspaper that the trustee's of BA's pension fund have bought some of Tesco's superstores on a leaseback deal. The deal makes BA one of Tesco's largest landlords, i dont know how much was paid, but it is a 20 year deal with an option to terminate the deal in 2016.
I'm not a journo, but just a humble SLF and BA sharholder ( since the flotation) and i support any action that you may take to get what you have worked hard for. Incase you are wondering about my age...my father purchased the shares for me, and on my 18th birthday, they were handed over to me.
But i noticed in todays Daily Mail newspaper that the trustee's of BA's pension fund have bought some of Tesco's superstores on a leaseback deal. The deal makes BA one of Tesco's largest landlords, i dont know how much was paid, but it is a 20 year deal with an option to terminate the deal in 2016.
PPRuNe Person
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As I predicted BALPA chickened out of a strike
Look at the title of the thread, I said 'prepared to strike'. We still are, we may not need to if the management have caved.
If the members don't like the deal then that's another story.
Last edited by overstress; 6th Jan 2007 at 01:44. Reason: Trying to keep whoop in the loop
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Their sole reason for this is so that they didn't invalidate their running ballot by removing the pension issue from their mandate. They are playing this as hardball and 'we will not give in' to spur their membership into voting 'yes'. In the years to come, after BASSA have agreed what is on the table (without improvement), the myths and legends of BASSA spin will be portrying this as a great BASSA Pensions victory despite the other TU's weaknesses.
Thsi is the way BASSA/T&G works, spin without substance.
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Ba pensions problem
Lets get this Straight at Last.
The only improvement is the £8M Ba has thrown into the deal.(to offer a fig leaf to the unions to justify acceptance).
THAT WILL NOT BE ENOUGH TO CHANGE ANYTHING MAJOR TO THE LAST BA OFFER.
The NAPS membership will have to swallow the total cost of the tweaks to return to the old scheme NAPS type deal as BA required which could rise to 20% extra contributions of pensionable pay if a member opted for them all!
The RPI max link to future pensionable pay will remain.
Face it guys BA has WON and BALPA did not rise to the bar.
It chose the easy option to protect the senior NAPS guys who will not be affected so badly.
You will be asked to vote to accept the BA offer. NO STRIKE BALLOT.
The outcome was so predictable, like the fact that the Membership will Vote Yes to this deal and accept the Union recommendation. They have never thrown out a deal brokered by New Road and never will.
W. Walsh 1 Balpa 0.......... The City and the Chairman chose the right C.E.O.
Whats next on the W. Walsh Menu
The only improvement is the £8M Ba has thrown into the deal.(to offer a fig leaf to the unions to justify acceptance).
THAT WILL NOT BE ENOUGH TO CHANGE ANYTHING MAJOR TO THE LAST BA OFFER.
The NAPS membership will have to swallow the total cost of the tweaks to return to the old scheme NAPS type deal as BA required which could rise to 20% extra contributions of pensionable pay if a member opted for them all!
The RPI max link to future pensionable pay will remain.
Face it guys BA has WON and BALPA did not rise to the bar.
It chose the easy option to protect the senior NAPS guys who will not be affected so badly.
You will be asked to vote to accept the BA offer. NO STRIKE BALLOT.
The outcome was so predictable, like the fact that the Membership will Vote Yes to this deal and accept the Union recommendation. They have never thrown out a deal brokered by New Road and never will.
W. Walsh 1 Balpa 0.......... The City and the Chairman chose the right C.E.O.
Whats next on the W. Walsh Menu
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 6th Jan 2007 at 10:10.
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WWW - 2 points.
If the deal is put to the members and they say no - I think you might find that there is still a possibility of a ballot. Let's hope not.
Secondly with regards to your 'what happened to the BARP improvement' - well if you had your ear a little more firmly attached to the ground you would be aware that there has been an improvement to BARP - just no details released till Monday (after the city have been told).
Now maybe you can keep a lid on your rhetoric until you have all the facts.
If the deal is put to the members and they say no - I think you might find that there is still a possibility of a ballot. Let's hope not.
Secondly with regards to your 'what happened to the BARP improvement' - well if you had your ear a little more firmly attached to the ground you would be aware that there has been an improvement to BARP - just no details released till Monday (after the city have been told).
Now maybe you can keep a lid on your rhetoric until you have all the facts.
the lunatic fringe
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WWW
Lets get this Straight: The proposed negotiated deal, the one we all get to vote on, has yet to be revealed. It is ALL rumour, based on half an incomplete story.
So before you condem and gloat, wait for the full facts.
Lets get this Straight: The proposed negotiated deal, the one we all get to vote on, has yet to be revealed. It is ALL rumour, based on half an incomplete story.
So before you condem and gloat, wait for the full facts.
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WWW
Correct me if I am wrong, but BA's original idea was a career average scheme.
Their official next proposal was £500m lump sum and £250m (plus a bit (can't remember the exact figure) per year. Then the lump sum went up to £800m and £272m per year. Now it has gone up another £8m per year yes. But ALL of these improvements have been spearheaded by BALPA (with backing from the other trade unions).
Now I am not saying that I am going to vote for the deal. I do not know precisely what it is yet. I hope it will be flexible in the future - and not in BA's favour. I am also hoping that BALPA have managed to get a shift in the amount of the money that is going to past accrual and the amount that is going to future accrual. It is the future acrual that BALPA were interested in (ie reducing the loss of benefits), whereas it is the past acrual that the trustees were interested in.
I think you should give BALPA a break until we see the proposals. And if we do not like them, we can vote no.
Correct me if I am wrong, but BA's original idea was a career average scheme.
Their official next proposal was £500m lump sum and £250m (plus a bit (can't remember the exact figure) per year. Then the lump sum went up to £800m and £272m per year. Now it has gone up another £8m per year yes. But ALL of these improvements have been spearheaded by BALPA (with backing from the other trade unions).
Now I am not saying that I am going to vote for the deal. I do not know precisely what it is yet. I hope it will be flexible in the future - and not in BA's favour. I am also hoping that BALPA have managed to get a shift in the amount of the money that is going to past accrual and the amount that is going to future accrual. It is the future acrual that BALPA were interested in (ie reducing the loss of benefits), whereas it is the past acrual that the trustees were interested in.
I think you should give BALPA a break until we see the proposals. And if we do not like them, we can vote no.
Last edited by GS-Alpha; 6th Jan 2007 at 14:31.
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Ba Pension problem
Here is what is in the public domain ie bassa members vis the meeting............
You will read of the decision of the BA Forum to recommend acceptance of a pensions package, designed to safeguard the future of NAPS in BA.
It will now be for the members to decide.
Following our discussions with the BASSA Committee and representatives, I made it very clear to the company that BASSA was not ready to settle the issue of pensions at this stage.
The Forum was then faced with two options:
• imposition next Tuesday by the company agreeing with the Trustees;
• recommending the package that had seen a further and final improvement made in day-long negotiations earlier today.
The BA Forum concluded that imposition was completely unacceptable because:
• it would be a bad precedent for the future
• the £800 million would not be guaranteed
• the further improvements made today amounting to £8 million would be at risk.
Before the Forum made its decision, I made it clear that the T&G could not vote in favour of the package because of the clear position of BASSA.
The T&G position was therefore to abstain.
Crucially, it should be stressed that the further improvements to the pension package has a lot to do with the firm stand taken by BASSA.
Further discussions will now take place between BASSA and BA on the Pensions package as it affects BASSA members.
On the wider dispute between BASSA and BA, the issues remain unresolved and we will now be joined by Amicus in fighting for a just settlement.
Finally our members in BASSA will continue to have the total support of their Union, the T&G.
............This brings me to the view that the only union that has stood firm is the T and G and BASSA.
BALPA has been a paper tiger in this issue.
You will read of the decision of the BA Forum to recommend acceptance of a pensions package, designed to safeguard the future of NAPS in BA.
It will now be for the members to decide.
Following our discussions with the BASSA Committee and representatives, I made it very clear to the company that BASSA was not ready to settle the issue of pensions at this stage.
The Forum was then faced with two options:
• imposition next Tuesday by the company agreeing with the Trustees;
• recommending the package that had seen a further and final improvement made in day-long negotiations earlier today.
The BA Forum concluded that imposition was completely unacceptable because:
• it would be a bad precedent for the future
• the £800 million would not be guaranteed
• the further improvements made today amounting to £8 million would be at risk.
Before the Forum made its decision, I made it clear that the T&G could not vote in favour of the package because of the clear position of BASSA.
The T&G position was therefore to abstain.
Crucially, it should be stressed that the further improvements to the pension package has a lot to do with the firm stand taken by BASSA.
Further discussions will now take place between BASSA and BA on the Pensions package as it affects BASSA members.
On the wider dispute between BASSA and BA, the issues remain unresolved and we will now be joined by Amicus in fighting for a just settlement.
Finally our members in BASSA will continue to have the total support of their Union, the T&G.
............This brings me to the view that the only union that has stood firm is the T and G and BASSA.
BALPA has been a paper tiger in this issue.
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 6th Jan 2007 at 11:12.
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You haven't got a clue. BASSA and the T+G don't even understand pensions never mind have anything to do with sorting them meaningfully.
Whatever is on the table is due to BALPA and KJ and DS with Graeme Fowler by far the most intelligent and well informed officer.
Can you tell me one thing.
If BASSA have been all the way behing BALPA in this when BALPA say they think they have a deal, suddenly BASSA get cold feet? Do you think it is maybe that this has happened at a really really bad time for their yes vote?
They are desperate now as one of the main things on their ill thought and ill timed ballot looks to have been potentially solved, well before their "sick out" (for those that don't know most BASSA members do not have the bottle to actually strike). From what I have heard their ballot will be poor as well.
You haven't got a clue. BASSA and the T+G don't even understand pensions never mind have anything to do with sorting them meaningfully.
Whatever is on the table is due to BALPA and KJ and DS with Graeme Fowler by far the most intelligent and well informed officer.
Can you tell me one thing.
If BASSA have been all the way behing BALPA in this when BALPA say they think they have a deal, suddenly BASSA get cold feet? Do you think it is maybe that this has happened at a really really bad time for their yes vote?
They are desperate now as one of the main things on their ill thought and ill timed ballot looks to have been potentially solved, well before their "sick out" (for those that don't know most BASSA members do not have the bottle to actually strike). From what I have heard their ballot will be poor as well.
Last edited by Sabre_Rattler; 6th Jan 2007 at 11:18.
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Does anybody care what www thinks? Does he get to vote on it too? He falls into the same category as all the managers-on-message that we have to endure all day everyday - background noise.
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Obviously we have to wait until Monday for the facts, but I would be amazed if BALPA get a majority YES if this implies what I think it implies.
Unless they have managed to secure an outstanding deal elsewhere of course.
Crucially, it should be stressed that the further improvements to the pension package has a lot to do with the firm stand taken by BASSA.
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The comment about being whe we are thanks to BASSA is laughable.
Just been on the blower to a pal in BALPA who said they couldn't find their arse with both hands, never mind influence a pension decision.
The whole TU position has been driven by BALPA.
Well done chaps. KJ is selling the deal as the best we could have got on the BALPA forum so its a big YES from me.
Also I will make sure BALPA realise that I will not let a badly timed stroppy ballot from BASSA ruin BALPA's 12 month campaign and my future benefits.
Just been on the blower to a pal in BALPA who said they couldn't find their arse with both hands, never mind influence a pension decision.
The whole TU position has been driven by BALPA.
Well done chaps. KJ is selling the deal as the best we could have got on the BALPA forum so its a big YES from me.
Also I will make sure BALPA realise that I will not let a badly timed stroppy ballot from BASSA ruin BALPA's 12 month campaign and my future benefits.
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This made me laugh. I have not found one cabin crew member that would strike for their pension alone.
Isn't CRM great!
What is good is that the Moose believes he has got every penny possible from BA, and that the deal does indeed involve a shift in the amount of money going towards future accrual and so our pension benefits.
We still need to see the details though.
Each of the other three unions acknowledged at the meeting that their own improvements had only been achieved through the resolve shown by BASSA. The deal currently on the table is there purely because of BASSA’s strength. Because of your strength and because you are telling anyone that will listen that you are not happy and that you aren’t going to be walked over. We can only imagine what improvements could come about with a huge YES vote…
What is good is that the Moose believes he has got every penny possible from BA, and that the deal does indeed involve a shift in the amount of money going towards future accrual and so our pension benefits.
We still need to see the details though.