BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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BA pilots strike
I do not believe BALPA will go on strike. Nothing has been said for nearly a month. My opinion is that they have got cold feet over a strike and will accept the BA offer. Otherwise, why have they not come out for a strike ballot like the cabin crew? Any pension deal would have to apply to all groups of BA staff and nobody has been offered any more by BA.
BALPA has wound the troops up to a fever pitch and my guess is they are now wondering in New Road how to eat humble pie over the NAPS pension.
BALPA has wound the troops up to a fever pitch and my guess is they are now wondering in New Road how to eat humble pie over the NAPS pension.
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WWW,You are correct, BALPA will not go on strike, however staff may vote to take IA, it will be a long game, would guess the company will want to fix its problem sooner than later, just look at the press about how the stock markets going up are helping many private pensions.
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If Gordon would do the honest thing and correct what he did in 1997, plus pay back all he has looted over this time, the private pensions picture would be a lot lot better in the Uk.
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Many people in the UK will reduce or stop paying into pensions if things are not changed, I think public pensions should get treated just like private pensions, ie, when private gets looted, loot public as well, that would soon change things.
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My new years wish is we have an election in 07!!!
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I too do not think it will come to a strike from BALPA - but not for the reasons you describe!
We are still in negotiation. BA have not imposed anything yet. BALPA's current proposal is meeting BA half way, and is based around what we believe BA can reasonably afford. I also believe that the proposal is a company wide proposal (although do not quote me on this), but it is designed to make the distribution of costs to all workgroups a little fairer. Personally, I am not that happy with the BALPA proposal from a financial loss point of view. But if BA cannot afford to pay the full pension, I cannot have it - a fact of life. You cannot make someone give you something that they do not have.
The important thing is to make the benefits returnable if affordability is no longer an issue in the future. I think this will be the sticking point as to whether a deal is accepted or not. That and the cost of upgrading benefits right now.
Any changes are due to be implemented in April. So that will be the absolute deadline for the discussions. However, I suspect it will all be agreed by the end of January. However, BA will probably make it dependent on the cabin crew not striking - but there is no way that will stop them. Most crew do not care about losing half of their pensions. For some reason, many are of the opinion that losing half of a little is not a worry. Their argument seems to be that they will not have enough anyway, so why worry if you only have half of not enough? A very strange logic to me, but there you go.
We are still in negotiation. BA have not imposed anything yet. BALPA's current proposal is meeting BA half way, and is based around what we believe BA can reasonably afford. I also believe that the proposal is a company wide proposal (although do not quote me on this), but it is designed to make the distribution of costs to all workgroups a little fairer. Personally, I am not that happy with the BALPA proposal from a financial loss point of view. But if BA cannot afford to pay the full pension, I cannot have it - a fact of life. You cannot make someone give you something that they do not have.
The important thing is to make the benefits returnable if affordability is no longer an issue in the future. I think this will be the sticking point as to whether a deal is accepted or not. That and the cost of upgrading benefits right now.
Any changes are due to be implemented in April. So that will be the absolute deadline for the discussions. However, I suspect it will all be agreed by the end of January. However, BA will probably make it dependent on the cabin crew not striking - but there is no way that will stop them. Most crew do not care about losing half of their pensions. For some reason, many are of the opinion that losing half of a little is not a worry. Their argument seems to be that they will not have enough anyway, so why worry if you only have half of not enough? A very strange logic to me, but there you go.
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JoeTom,
Unfortunately you are correct when you say:
However, I believe the only thing it would change, is the rate of Income Tax, to pay for it!
Unfortunately you are correct when you say:
ie, when private gets looted, loot public as well, that would soon change things
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GS-ALPHA,
Reading all the press about cost of private pensions and income tax to keep rising is making me a bit stressed, think I will log onto E-Free-Loaders and see if I can arrange a free holiday for the family and me???
Reading all the press about cost of private pensions and income tax to keep rising is making me a bit stressed, think I will log onto E-Free-Loaders and see if I can arrange a free holiday for the family and me???
PPRuNe Person
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I do not believe BALPA will go on strike. Nothing has been said for nearly a month. My opinion is that they have got cold feet over a strike and will accept the BA offer. Otherwise, why have they not come out for a strike ballot like the cabin crew? Any pension deal would have to apply to all groups of BA staff and nobody has been offered any more by BA.
BALPA has wound the troops up to a fever pitch and my guess is they are now wondering in New Road how to eat humble pie over the NAPS pension.
BALPA has wound the troops up to a fever pitch and my guess is they are now wondering in New Road how to eat humble pie over the NAPS pension.
BALPA and BA are still in negotiations. If this goes the wrong way for BALPA they will issue a ballot. If anyone is getting cold feet it's the management penguins
why have they not come out for a strike ballot like the cabin crew
nobody has been offered any more by BA.
Last edited by overstress; 30th Dec 2006 at 12:16.
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It would appear that over on the Cabin Crew forum, BASSA are about to drop their "strange mix of demands" but will still go to the ballot anyway, "just to show management who's boss and that they can't mess us around."
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BA pilot strike
The proof is Balpa's action so far....NO ACTION.
If a new pension offer was on the table it would have been made public by BA and offered to BASSA since they are on the same current deal as the pilots.
BA have offered BASSA NOTHING MORE on pensions indeed they have approached BASSA for concessions on their other current terms and conditions.
Why do BA pilots think they are so special in respect to a pensions deal, as opposed to other staff and if they are, why has BALPA not said a word publicly about the their negotiations good or bad for a month.
My guess is they have been offered nothing which is a cost to BA and now are in difficulty over which action to take.... strike or accept the BA offer.
BALPA is possibly waiting to see what happens to BASSA, before they take the plunge, either way not much of the so called alliance of pilots and cabin crew that was mooted at the start of this pensions problem.
But there was never much cooperation or love lost between the 2 groups in the past, so I dont expect much this time.
If a new pension offer was on the table it would have been made public by BA and offered to BASSA since they are on the same current deal as the pilots.
BA have offered BASSA NOTHING MORE on pensions indeed they have approached BASSA for concessions on their other current terms and conditions.
Why do BA pilots think they are so special in respect to a pensions deal, as opposed to other staff and if they are, why has BALPA not said a word publicly about the their negotiations good or bad for a month.
My guess is they have been offered nothing which is a cost to BA and now are in difficulty over which action to take.... strike or accept the BA offer.
BALPA is possibly waiting to see what happens to BASSA, before they take the plunge, either way not much of the so called alliance of pilots and cabin crew that was mooted at the start of this pensions problem.
But there was never much cooperation or love lost between the 2 groups in the past, so I dont expect much this time.
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The proof is Balpa's action so far....NO ACTION.
If a new pension offer was on the table it would have been made public by BA and offered to BASSA since they are on the same current deal as the pilots.
BA have offered BASSA NOTHING MORE on pensions indeed they have approached BASSA for concessions on their other current terms and conditions.
Why do BA pilots think they are so special in respect to a pensions deal, as opposed to other staff and if they are, why has BALPA not said a word publicly about the their negotiations good or bad for a month.
My guess is they have been offered nothing which is a cost to BA and now are in difficulty over which action to take.... strike or accept the BA offer.
BALPA is possibly waiting to see what happens to BASSA, before they take the plunge, either way not much of the so called alliance of pilots and cabin crew that was mooted at the start of this pensions problem.
But there was never much cooperation or love lost between the 2 groups in the past, so I dont expect much this time.
If a new pension offer was on the table it would have been made public by BA and offered to BASSA since they are on the same current deal as the pilots.
BA have offered BASSA NOTHING MORE on pensions indeed they have approached BASSA for concessions on their other current terms and conditions.
Why do BA pilots think they are so special in respect to a pensions deal, as opposed to other staff and if they are, why has BALPA not said a word publicly about the their negotiations good or bad for a month.
My guess is they have been offered nothing which is a cost to BA and now are in difficulty over which action to take.... strike or accept the BA offer.
BALPA is possibly waiting to see what happens to BASSA, before they take the plunge, either way not much of the so called alliance of pilots and cabin crew that was mooted at the start of this pensions problem.
But there was never much cooperation or love lost between the 2 groups in the past, so I dont expect much this time.
You speak utter garbage (but as your profile says you are 'out of the loop'.
Too true.
If you were a member ba the BA BALPA section you would at least know the situation, so I can only presume that you aren't. Your opinions are therefore worthless, so why don't you go away and multiply (with yourself, naturally).
The situation is that BA were so surprised by the cross-union solidarity at the 21/12 meeting that more was tabled, and further meetings are underway in order to determine whether or not a solution that can be put to members (of all unions) exists.
Now, if you choose to ignore facts then that is your perogative. There is no separate deal for pilots or any other group (apart from the leadership team
), so stop trying to sh1tstir you plonker.
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WWW
Mate, I find myself agreeing with some of what you say.
As far as an alliance between pilots and cabin crew is concerned, your cynicism is well founded. The pilots can't even stick together amongst themselves! I confidently predict nothing of any significance will be achieved during these discussions for BARPers, and if it's not fixed now, it will NEVER be fixed! I find that pretty disgusting! Anybody with more than about 15 years to do in BA can forget about retiring on a FSS of any description, even if they are currently in NAPS!
I am uncomfortable with the idea that those negotiating on my behalf are trying to second guess what the company 'can afford', and basing their aspirations on that!
It seems to me, when you look at recent share options cashed in by senior pilots, and the likely rewards for Wee Willie and his cronies. The payoffs for those who have recently broken the law, and potentially left MY company with a crippling fine, and the pension returns for senior figures after RIDICULOUSLY short periods in the employ of BA, that the company 'can afford' an amazing amount, when it wants to!!!
I thought when this all began, we were trying to ascertain our 'bottom line', beyond which would not be acceptable!
I already feel that a compromise is rapidly approaching that I will be extremely unhappy with. I'm equally confident that, like the 'new pay deal' the company will leave the room sniggering down their sleeves!
Happy New Year.
Mate, I find myself agreeing with some of what you say.
As far as an alliance between pilots and cabin crew is concerned, your cynicism is well founded. The pilots can't even stick together amongst themselves! I confidently predict nothing of any significance will be achieved during these discussions for BARPers, and if it's not fixed now, it will NEVER be fixed! I find that pretty disgusting! Anybody with more than about 15 years to do in BA can forget about retiring on a FSS of any description, even if they are currently in NAPS!
I am uncomfortable with the idea that those negotiating on my behalf are trying to second guess what the company 'can afford', and basing their aspirations on that!
It seems to me, when you look at recent share options cashed in by senior pilots, and the likely rewards for Wee Willie and his cronies. The payoffs for those who have recently broken the law, and potentially left MY company with a crippling fine, and the pension returns for senior figures after RIDICULOUSLY short periods in the employ of BA, that the company 'can afford' an amazing amount, when it wants to!!!
I thought when this all began, we were trying to ascertain our 'bottom line', beyond which would not be acceptable!
I already feel that a compromise is rapidly approaching that I will be extremely unhappy with. I'm equally confident that, like the 'new pay deal' the company will leave the room sniggering down their sleeves!
Happy New Year.
Tandemrotor: nail the head on hit
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Bottom line:
There will be a ballot for a deal much less than many will be thrilled with. Along with a recommendation to accept, as it is "all BA can afford" (snigger, snigger). But there will be NO BALPA strike ballot. The deal will all be done in a smoke filled room. All the rhetoric here, and on the balpa website will just be hot air!
...Shortly followed by a multi million pound deal for new aircraft, along with record profits, and bonuses for managers.
I will apologise unreservedly if I am wrong!
There will be a ballot for a deal much less than many will be thrilled with. Along with a recommendation to accept, as it is "all BA can afford" (snigger, snigger). But there will be NO BALPA strike ballot. The deal will all be done in a smoke filled room. All the rhetoric here, and on the balpa website will just be hot air!
...Shortly followed by a multi million pound deal for new aircraft, along with record profits, and bonuses for managers.
I will apologise unreservedly if I am wrong!
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Unless the final deal is reviewable in our favour (should things improve), then I would hope that BALPA will recommend strike action, and that they get the support they need. That is my bottom line. Everything else is negotiable (within reason). ie temporary changes yes, permanent - NO WAY!!!!
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The company will only want any future changes in one direction, once this wedge gets inserted into NAPs, the game will be lost, wedge will pushed and pushed at every possible point, I would guess at plus 5 years it will have about the same value of the MPS that new staff get now, the company may feel this is a good time to shut-down NAPs and offer MPS to all staff.
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Make no mistake, any changes to NAPs will be the start of the shut-down, the bigger any changes made in 2007 will just speed up the shut-down process.
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For my own pension planning value, I have factored a reduction of 30% between 2007 and 2012, 50% from 2012, these numbers are bad enough but it also appears tax relief on pensions from 2012 will be flat rated at 25% or the basic tax rate at that point, so higher rate tax payers will lose out even more.
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Think I will watch an old Robin Hood film now to cheer me up!!!
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Make no mistake, any changes to NAPs will be the start of the shut-down, the bigger any changes made in 2007 will just speed up the shut-down process.
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For my own pension planning value, I have factored a reduction of 30% between 2007 and 2012, 50% from 2012, these numbers are bad enough but it also appears tax relief on pensions from 2012 will be flat rated at 25% or the basic tax rate at that point, so higher rate tax payers will lose out even more.
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Think I will watch an old Robin Hood film now to cheer me up!!!
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I've had some pretty strong debates with Tandem and Carnage down the years, but I am shocked by his assumption that there will be a sellout over the pension issue. Following Tandem's last post, I can only hope he's wrong - I just cannot believe that BALPA will cave in. This is probably the single most important issue facing British Airline pilots that I can remember, and if the management win it, (and winning will be anything which significantly dilutes the contractual entitlements of NAPS members) then we can all sit back and watch the Ts and Cs continue to drain into the sewer as WW and his ilk get their snouts firmly into the bonus trough at the expense of line pilots. (How CAN these guys justify trousering such huge bonuses????????? It really is the unacceptable face of capitalism, and it shows how the policy of divide and rule via effective bribery works!!!)
As BA become (how surprising) more profitable, every other airline in the UK will follow suit, payrises will decline, conditions will get worse, the airline pilot benchmark which has hugely assisted every single one of us will be eroded. Having cut away so much, it is impossible for most airlines to get more work out of pilots without breaking the law, so the only way to increased profitability/reduced costs is to attack employee conditions.
Any UK pilot who cannot see this is in dreamland. Further, BALPA must be in dreamland too, because they have existed mainly on the back of the BA pilots, and I cannot see how they expect to retain credibility if they give way. Of course, there will be some close to retirement who just want no hassle -that's always been the way, but BA have been the airline which has met management head-on, and generally managed to improve their Ts and Cs down the years, with spinoff for every single other operator. Basic economics, basic IR. I am beginning to think that secondary picketing has a place in the great scheme of things after all. Tandem, Happy New Year - my best wishes and hopes it will turn out better than you think.
As BA become (how surprising) more profitable, every other airline in the UK will follow suit, payrises will decline, conditions will get worse, the airline pilot benchmark which has hugely assisted every single one of us will be eroded. Having cut away so much, it is impossible for most airlines to get more work out of pilots without breaking the law, so the only way to increased profitability/reduced costs is to attack employee conditions.
Any UK pilot who cannot see this is in dreamland. Further, BALPA must be in dreamland too, because they have existed mainly on the back of the BA pilots, and I cannot see how they expect to retain credibility if they give way. Of course, there will be some close to retirement who just want no hassle -that's always been the way, but BA have been the airline which has met management head-on, and generally managed to improve their Ts and Cs down the years, with spinoff for every single other operator. Basic economics, basic IR. I am beginning to think that secondary picketing has a place in the great scheme of things after all. Tandem, Happy New Year - my best wishes and hopes it will turn out better than you think.
Last edited by The Little Prince; 31st Dec 2006 at 09:48. Reason: AND ANOTHER THING!!!!!
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I admire various poster's confidence that BA would be biting their hand off to employ them.
Their unshakeable belief in their employability is heart warming but their naivety in how long it would take to have them up and running on-line fails to convince me that they know ANYTHING about airline operations.
How these people intend to train themselves with NO sim instructrors, NO line trainers and NO check Captains would make an interesting thread all on it's own.
So come on then AB, how you going to go about it then?
Their unshakeable belief in their employability is heart warming but their naivety in how long it would take to have them up and running on-line fails to convince me that they know ANYTHING about airline operations.
How these people intend to train themselves with NO sim instructrors, NO line trainers and NO check Captains would make an interesting thread all on it's own.
So come on then AB, how you going to go about it then?
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Quote from the Angryblackman
"Are they hiring Captain's off the street yet?
I'm standing by my phone waiting for the phone call as soon as they strike ."
Mate do us a favour camp outside Cranebank WW might save money on the phone calls and just hire you
"Are they hiring Captain's off the street yet?
I'm standing by my phone waiting for the phone call as soon as they strike ."
Mate do us a favour camp outside Cranebank WW might save money on the phone calls and just hire you